5 ms·

Automatic transmission is probably the only indispensable "feature" I look for in a new car and that I'm willing to pay extra for. How some people prefer manual

Automatic transmission is probably the only indispensable "feature" I look for in a new car and that I'm willing to pay extra for. How some people prefer manual is probably one of the mysteries I'll take to grave with myself. Edit: By prefer, I mean having the choice and choosing manual, obviously. Choosing manual because it is cheaper does not count.

BoingBoomTschak 2y ago
You 'murican? Anyway, you feel closer to the machine with a good manual (e.g. MX-5), it's for sports cars having the pleasure of driving as main purpose. It's also cheaper, lighter and more reliable. Auto should be used for all the other cars (including performance cars, where you want your mind focused on stuff other than shifting; true sequential is king there, though).
- theanonymousone 2y ago
  [dead]
- theanonymousone 2y ago
  Isn't it an actually American thing to "feel closer to the machine"?
  - a-french-anon 2y ago
    Why would you think that? True sports cars (not muscle cars) are an European and Japanese thing. Cf https://paulgraham.com/usa.html https://paulgraham.com/usa.html really.
- devilbunny 2y ago
  In the US, it's often more expensive to get a manual if you are at all picky about options - very few are made, so gearheads end up scouring the entire country to find a car in the right color, right options package, etc. You might end up with another $2000 in shipping, and the dealers have little incentive to move the cars off the lot (they don't have many if any, and some manual-transmission lover will pay near sticker). I've driven manual cars but never owned one. Other than transmission fluid changes (rare), though, I've never had to fix an auto transmission. They're pretty reliable. My current one is at about 260k km, 24 years old (previous owner burned out engine and transmission at ~100k km on car by not using towing mode to tow, so car has more on it than that).
  - magnetowasright 2y ago
    I was watching a sort of car review channel and they said 4% of (new) car sales in the US are manual. I was wondering why so few of the amazing sports cars they were reviewing were manual; they just couldn't get their hands on manual versions. There was one astounding model (can't remember) that simply didn't make a manual version at all. It's probably quite silly how shocking I find all of this. I just do not at all understand the point of a so-called sports car (especially the expensive ones!) that's not a manual! What's the point?! I genuinely do not understand why anyone would want an automatic sports car. I don't have to understand; I'm not the arbiter of anything let alone others' enjoyment of cars. I am still confused tho lol
fragmede 2y ago
It's about mechanical empathy and greater control. Mechanical empathy is where you just really know a machine with character, and know how to handle its foibles, and it's like an extension of you. Where earlier automatic transmissions were less efficient, there was greater efficiency to be had from a manual transmission, but since dual-clutch automatics, that's less true. Even So, an automatic transmission can't know what you're thinking (yet), and so can't down/upshift when you want it to. It's like running Linux. At some point it's just another OS, so what difference does it make? And for some, it doesn't make a difference. For others, having more control, and being able to dig into the guts of a desktop Linux system and replace whatever you want let's them feel more connected to the computer, making it less of a mysterious box that operates on magic and black smoke, and more of a predictable machine.
- theanonymousone 2y ago
  > It's like running Linux. To me it's more like "running your own-compiled GNU Hurd Kernel", probably on your own-assembled kit :D Linux has very "tangible" use cases, far beyond wanting the machine "be an extension of yourself". No?
  - minhaz23 2y ago
    Can you break down the analogy to a casual like myself? Genuinely want to be in on it as i enjoy driving and am always wanting to learn more linux to grasp a better understanding of OS’s
  - fragmede 2y ago
    I'm sorry but you'll have to go into /etc/tangibles.conf and use_cases = "beyond_extension", and then run systemctl daemon-reload to get that behavior. I mean sure. Obvs I don't speak for everyone that runs Linux. Knowing how Linux, works from Kernel to user space, from an LFS install, or simply being around it that much lends itself to being the kind of person who's able to setup, or gets paid to setup the kinds of tangible use cases others want. Like a webserver, back when it was hard. Like eg mounting files as a drive. It's just losetup then mount /dev/loop0 /mnt. That's a tangible use case where you can copy files off a dvd ISO. I'm sure you can find a program to do that on Windows, but it's basically a built in feature on Linux. Linux at the base level is workshop full of tools, it's up to you what you want to build.
brnt 2y ago
Better fuel efficiency for one. And I, for the time being, am much better at anticipating the required power output and optimal gear 5-10 seconds ahead. And of course for a lot of driving (highways) theres very little shifting anyway.
- dragonelite 2y ago
  On highways i just use cruise control, for the rest shifting has pretty much become automatic for me.
- Hamuko 2y ago
  You won’t get better fuel efficiency unless your manual gearbox has eight (or even nine or ten) gears like the automatics have now. For example, BMW says that the manual BMW M2 does 10.0–10.2 l/100km and the eight-speed automatic does 9.6–9.8 l/100 km. It’s also slightly slower and has higher emissions (since it burns more fuel too).
  - brnt 2y ago
    Either of those use way too much. As sibling points out, 4.7 is more in the range of what I drive and expect. I have a Skoda Rapid with just 5 gears, and I manage to get it under 5L/100km.
    - Hamuko 2y ago
      The BMW M2 is a sports car powered by a three-litre twin-turbocharged inline-six with a bit under 500 horsepower.
  - pistoleer 2y ago
    The VW Golf manual does 4.7L/100km
- mgraupner 2y ago
  This is not the case anymore with modern transmission having 8 to 10 gears available. See https://www.theautopian.com/heres-exactly-when-automatic-transmissions-became-more-efficient-than-manuals/ https://www.theautopian.com/heres-exactly-when-automatic-tra... I drive a BMW with a 8 gear automatic, it's always in the gear I want it to be, and I was a stick advocate for many years, no need for it anymore.
WalterBright 2y ago
A manual transmission is fun. An automatic is boring. With a manual tranny, manual brakes, manual steering, and manual suspension you feel connected to the car and the road, and it's just a joy. It's even more fun when you learn to double clutch the downshift, and work on doing a perfect downshift and entry into the turn. With practice, you can drive a stick smoother than an auto, though most never bother. The times I prefer an automatic are in stop-go traffic, and starting out uphill. I'd also prefer an automatic in a luxury car or SUV. But for a muscle car or sports car, stick all the way! You can't win a drag race with a stick, racing auto trans will always shift faster. But there's no skill in the latter, and so it's no fun. I recently took up dirt bike riding. I was repeatedly offered an electric bike, which didn't need shifting. Phooey. I wanted the gas bike with the manual shifter. And I was right, managing the engine and gear adds much fun.
- scotty79 2y ago
  Ones fun is somebody elses tedium.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    I know I'm an outlier.
tomxor 2y ago
Because automatics can feel slow and laggy depending on the terrain, because they can only respond to load rather than anticipate it. In the UK and EU there are lots of hills and narrow winding roads where you notice this the most; whereas if you are mostly driving on the flat automatic probably feels no different. It's also more noticeable in small cars with small engines (also more common over here out of practicality) where using the right gear at just the right time is more important if you don't want to end up stuck crawling up a hill. Most EVs are single speed transmission due to the wide range torque curve, so manual vs auto is kind of a moot point for all but very high performance vehicles anyway... Which is why this honda thing is a total gimmick, i'd happily give up manual gearbox when there is no performance and efficiency difference.
- karmarepellent 2y ago
  I have no data to back it up, but this is why a lot of people living in the Alps supposedly still drive cars with a manual gearbox, although generally sales of new, automatic cars are now ahead of manual ones, even in Germany.
  - orwin 2y ago
    If you're a tourist who never learnt how to manage your gearbox and use an automatic, it doesn't have any impact on danger (both for yourself and other road users), at least the first days, until you learn. The issue with automatic is that you'll never have the opportunity to truly improve.
01100011 2y ago
Stick shifts are the original fidget spinners. I loved mine. I'd happily have another.
trklausss 2y ago
Been driving manual all my life and having now a DSG automatic. I love it, fuel efficiency is on par with manual. There are things that I don’t like, specifically: - Driving in traffic: If I’m inching forward, transmission suffer because it does continuously half-clutch. Much more control with a manual. - Mountain driving: I usually set it again to manual to be able to brake with the engine when going up and meeting a curve. Interestingly, it does fine going downhill. - tricky terrain: it changes wildly depending on the traction you are encountering, so manual mode helps keeping a constant rhythm and speed when traction is not optimal (snow, mud, etc) I have to admit though that the automatic is way faster than me at changing gears, which helps keeping a constant acceleration and avoid head bobbing.
- tame3902 2y ago
  > I have to admit though that the automatic is way faster than me at changing gears, which helps keeping a constant acceleration and avoid head bobbing. That's because a DSG gearbox has two clutches. It is basically a traditional gearbox with one clutch connected to the odd gears and one to the even gears. The system selects the next gear according to the revs of the engine and does all the physical shifting in advance. The actual gear change is then only disengaging one clutch while engaging the other one. You can overlap this so the engine continously delivers torque to the wheels. Thus, no head bobbing.
  - serf 2y ago
    >You can overlap this so the engine continously delivers torque to the wheels. Thus, no head bobbing. head bobbing (sudden g-force jerks) was fixed before the introduction of another clutch; that's a function of rev-matching between upshifts and downshifts. An early BMW SMG system, a manual gearbox with electro-hydraulics on top of it to handle shifting and clutch work, gets rid of the head bobbing. How? Precise rev-matching. dual clutch systems were a means to speed the gear-shift process up, with two clutches there is no need to wait for shaft speed mismatches, you just keep the opposite clutch where you need it RPM-wise. This helps alleviate the head-bobbing, but it's more just an artifact of how the system has to work -- rev-matching is now something required in order not to blow the system up. tl;dr : it's the rev-matching saving your neck, just like it would've been doing had you been a passenger with a race driver -- but they're doing it to save tires and keep the car stable, they probably don't care about your neck.
vbezhenar 2y ago
I used cars with automatic and manual transmissions and I prefer manual. I just don't see any benefit of using automatic transmission. Manual transmission is cheaper. Manual transmission is simpler and drastically cheaper to repair. Cars with manual transmission can be towed. Automatic transmission often makes a wrong choice, so I often need to override the selection of gear. Using manual transmission is not hard or exhausting. Also automatic transmission for some reason does not want to use engine as a brake, so I need to push my brakes more often, with manual transmission I rarely have to reach brake because I can just release acceleration and it'll slow down well, I only need to brake to make a full stop.
- mirsadm 2y ago
  How can it be cheaper than not having a transmission at all in an EV?
- M4v3R 2y ago
  > I just don't see any benefit of using automatic transmission Not having to deal with gear shifting is a huge benefit for me. It takes out one non-trivial element from the whole driving experience and lets me focus more on all the other things you need to do while driving. It’s also more relaxing, especially combined with adaptive cruise control. And I never worry I will mess up the when starting from a full stop and have to restart the car. Especially when starting from an uphill. From what you described you’re the type of person that likes to have full control over the car and how it behaves, and that’s totally fine. But many of us don’t, we just care to get from point A to B with as little friction as possible. Sure, it’s more expensive to get and maintain, but that’s a price I’m fully willing to pay.
  - carlmr 2y ago
    >It takes out one non-trivial element from the whole driving experience and lets me focus more on all the other things you need to do while driving. Your mind is not very busy shifting if you've been driving manual for a while.
    - 2y ago
globular-toast 2y ago
Using an auto feels like using a mobility aid. It's not fun so therefore it's something I'm forced to use. I don't transport heavy goods and I'm not disabled, why would I be using a mobility aid? Wall-E made a whole lot more sense the first time I drove an auto. Having said that, manuals are harder and I have noticed people are less willing to give up something that took time and effort to learn, so take my thoughts with a pinch of salt.
teleforce 2y ago
> How some people prefer manual is probably one of the mysteries I'll take to grave with myself. Fun facts, the new high performance Toyota GR Corolla has a new automatic gear that's proven faster than the manual version. I really hope similar things happening for programming languages with GC since D language got a lot of flak by making GC as the default. To rephrase your perplexity, how some people prefer manual memory management is probably one of the mysteries I'll take to grave with myself.
- formerly_proven 2y ago
  According to the press release, the GR DAT is not "proven faster than manual", but is rather supposed to be competitive with dual-clutch transmissions.
  - teleforce 2y ago
    It's faster, they time both at the Toyota testing race track using the same professional driver.
- theanonymousone 2y ago
  More like " how some people prefer manual memory management for non-performance-critical applications".
Valgrim 2y ago
I learned to drive with a manual transmission so I'd feel comfortable driving any car in Europe, where manual transmissions are far more common. The transition was stressful but after a few hours it became easier and after a few days, it became second nature—just as easy as driving an automatic. Today, my own car has a manual transmission, which I prefer for the added control. It lets me use different levels of engine braking on downhill stretches (very useful depending on where you live) and manage my speed more precisely in heavy traffic.
- petesergeant 2y ago
  I’m convinced learning on an automatic first and moving to manual from that is the right way to learn. Clutch control and gear shifts are extra mental load for new drivers, and pretty natural for experienced drivers. In a car I learned manual first and it was a mission, on a bike I learned automatic first and switched to manual from that, and it was much easier.
  - magnetowasright 2y ago
    That's what I did for learning to drive and it worked beautifully for me. I also got my license later than most, so when an opportunity came up to get lessons I just wanted to pass the test to get my provisional license ASAP so I could actually get around by myself with the intention to learn manual later. I did have a go at learning manual at first but it was going to take me a lot longer. I just needed to get my P plates! Where I am you don't need to retest for manual once off your provisional license which is great. When my husband and I needed to replace his car (a little manual shitbox, god bless it) I suggested we replace it with an another manual, and I wanted a hot hatch. Proper hot hatch wasn't really in the budget so we got a (luke)warm hatch instead lol. A suzuki swift, manual, which I have delusions of upgrading so I can take it on track days now that it's my daily driver. He's got the CVT gig car for his daily driver now. Anyway, I highly recommend learning automatic first and learning manual later. It's such a good skill to have anyway. I live in a bushfire prone area so knowing that if I have to evacuate I know I can confidently drive any car I have access to is nice. As long as it's synchromesh lmao
- 2y ago
kkapelon 2y ago
At least in Europe there have been cases where automatic transmission costs an extra 20% in the price of the car. For several people this is an important decision. So some people don't "prefer" manual. It just made sense at the time they bought the car.
- theanonymousone 2y ago
  Yes. I fully get that, living in Europe myself (Isn't 20% a bit too much by the way?)
  - pantulis 2y ago
    The idea is that automatic transmission becomes part of a more luxurious packaged upgrade including other things. I think it was that way around two decades ago, now i'm not so sure.
  - kkapelon 2y ago
    My own personal example (back in 2018) Hyundai Kona (the middle package) 22k euros with manual Hyundai Kona (the middle package) 27k euros with automatic Main point was that you could not get just automatic transmission on its own. You also had to get the 4WD drive version at the same time.
littlestymaar 2y ago
Manual transmission is harder to learn, and requires more work, but also gives the driver more control on the car. When driving an automatic car I always feel like I trade driving control in favor of convenience, and that makes me anxious whenever something happens that require driver action.
Zak 2y ago
They're more fun. You're actively operating the machinery instead of it operating itself. That probably doesn't sound fun to you, but it is to me, and I'm not alone. Until recently, manuals were also more efficient than automatics and had more gears. That was a big factor for performance cars and places with high fuel prices, but is no longer true. Now, automatics are more efficient and usually have more gears, so people who want manuals on new cars just want the additional control or engagement.
- rightbyte 2y ago
  You'd need to drive the automaic in semi automatic mode for it to be as efficient, right?
  - Zak 2y ago
    Very unlikely. The default gear selection algorithm is optimized for efficiency in most cars.
    - rightbyte 2y ago
      Automatics usually don't plan ahead. And my experience is that responsiveness is prioritized over fuel efficiency. There should be more coasting with no gear engaged and low gear low rpm for low loads, than what automatics chose in practice. But I don't have any data at hand for practical fuel efficiency and modern automatics versus manual.
      - Zak 2y ago
        Coasting with no gear engaged consumes some fuel to keep the engine idling; coasting in gear consumes no fuel at all.
        rightbyte 2y ago
        Yes but if you don't want to retard higher rpm in the motor gives higher losses. I think it is accurate enough to think of each revolution as a fixed cost for 'low' or idle power. At idle power the motor should probably only be engaged when also braking.
krelian 2y ago
>How some people prefer manual is probably one of the mysteries I'll take to grave with myself. When I find myself thinking like that I try to come up with generous analogies to try and position myself in a similar mindset. With manual transmission the advantage seems to be fine grained control over the engine at the cost of more complexity and additional work. This fine grained control may be imperceptible or totally unnecessary for some people. However, I run Linux for similar reasons and enjoy tinkering with it. I also tend to prefer tools that target power users at the cost of complexity. So, even if I'm not a gearhead myself, I can easily understand the preference for manual transmission by others.
rightbyte 2y ago
Automatics are more complex and harder to repair, easier breaks. Damages that would give a manual gearbox 'personality', might make the automatic refuse to engage gear at all. The accelerator padel in practice also becomes a shift down gear button. So you need to keep your feet at a more specific position of the pedal. When towing trailers the automatic gear selection is usually bad. You can't start the engine by rolling it and release the clutch when low on batteries or the starter motor is somewhat broken. I would say this is the biggest drawback of automatics. On the other hand, automatics are nice in queues.
- Ccecil 2y ago
  I remember my friend had a 70s Dodge Dart (Slant 6 automatic) and his starter went out. His father pushed the car with his truck up to 35mph and then he put it in drive...it push started. But yeah...typically that is a very bad idea for a number of reasons. Safety being a big one...plus, on a lot of automatics the pump is driven from the input shaft...so when coasting in neutral there is often no lubrication.
BrandoElFollito 2y ago
I live in France, so in a place where manual was the norm. I hate it compared to automatic. Automatic is so much more comfortable (in my Toyota Hybrid RAV4 at least), driving in yraffic us much easier etc. I will never buy a manual car again.
- theanonymousone 2y ago
  > I will never buy a manual car again. Me after I accidentally ended up buying an automatic car for the first time.
  - BrandoElFollito 2y ago
    Looks like there is future for the car makers to please everyone :) One annoying thing with automatic cars here on France is that if you get your driving license on them tout cannot drive a manual without a special extra course (just driving his, no exam). A driving license done on a manual allows driving both cars.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - scotty79 2y ago
      I'm so happy I got my drivers license on manual because if I stared with automatic, knowing how good it is I wouldn't be able to force myself to endure the stupidity of manual transmission to learn it.
    - theanonymousone 2y ago
      Was the case in Switzerland too, until recently-ish when they changed it.
jinushaun 2y ago
Same reason I don’t like FSD even though as an engineer it’s cool technology: I enjoy driving. It’s like cooking your own meal versus going to a restaurant. I enjoy cooking a lot.
ryandvm 2y ago
I prefer it for better control of the shift points and I have an admittedly unfounded theory that manuals are more reliable and longer lasting than automatic transmissions.
Salgat 2y ago
What I love about electric is that there is normally no transmission. Automakers realized it was cheaper and simpler to simply ditch the transmission in favor of a stronger motor.
alex7734 2y ago
Not having an automatic transmission means there are less ways in which a manufacturer can screw up your car's performance in the name of emissions. This is obviously less relevant in America where you can still buy fast cars without being murdered by taxes.

BoingBoomTschak 2y ago

You 'murican? Anyway, you feel closer to the machine with a good manual (e.g. MX-5), it's for sports cars having the pleasure of driving as main purpose. It's also cheaper, lighter and more reliable. Auto should be used for all the other cars (including performance cars, where you want your mind focused on stuff other than shifting; true sequential is king there, though).

theanonymousone 2y ago
[dead]
theanonymousone 2y ago
Isn't it an actually American thing to "feel closer to the machine"?
- a-french-anon 2y ago
  Why would you think that? True sports cars (not muscle cars) are an European and Japanese thing. Cf https://paulgraham.com/usa.html https://paulgraham.com/usa.html really.
devilbunny 2y ago
In the US, it's often more expensive to get a manual if you are at all picky about options - very few are made, so gearheads end up scouring the entire country to find a car in the right color, right options package, etc. You might end up with another $2000 in shipping, and the dealers have little incentive to move the cars off the lot (they don't have many if any, and some manual-transmission lover will pay near sticker). I've driven manual cars but never owned one. Other than transmission fluid changes (rare), though, I've never had to fix an auto transmission. They're pretty reliable. My current one is at about 260k km, 24 years old (previous owner burned out engine and transmission at ~100k km on car by not using towing mode to tow, so car has more on it than that).
- magnetowasright 2y ago
  I was watching a sort of car review channel and they said 4% of (new) car sales in the US are manual. I was wondering why so few of the amazing sports cars they were reviewing were manual; they just couldn't get their hands on manual versions. There was one astounding model (can't remember) that simply didn't make a manual version at all. It's probably quite silly how shocking I find all of this. I just do not at all understand the point of a so-called sports car (especially the expensive ones!) that's not a manual! What's the point?! I genuinely do not understand why anyone would want an automatic sports car. I don't have to understand; I'm not the arbiter of anything let alone others' enjoyment of cars. I am still confused tho lol

fragmede 2y ago

It's about mechanical empathy and greater control. Mechanical empathy is where you just really know a machine with character, and know how to handle its foibles, and it's like an extension of you. Where earlier automatic transmissions were less efficient, there was greater efficiency to be had from a manual transmission, but since dual-clutch automatics, that's less true. Even So, an automatic transmission can't know what you're thinking (yet), and so can't down/upshift when you want it to. It's like running Linux. At some point it's just another OS, so what difference does it make? And for some, it doesn't make a difference. For others, having more control, and being able to dig into the guts of a desktop Linux system and replace whatever you want let's them feel more connected to the computer, making it less of a mysterious box that operates on magic and black smoke, and more of a predictable machine.

theanonymousone 2y ago
> It's like running Linux. To me it's more like "running your own-compiled GNU Hurd Kernel", probably on your own-assembled kit :D Linux has very "tangible" use cases, far beyond wanting the machine "be an extension of yourself". No?
- minhaz23 2y ago
  Can you break down the analogy to a casual like myself? Genuinely want to be in on it as i enjoy driving and am always wanting to learn more linux to grasp a better understanding of OS’s
- fragmede 2y ago
  I'm sorry but you'll have to go into /etc/tangibles.conf and use_cases = "beyond_extension", and then run systemctl daemon-reload to get that behavior. I mean sure. Obvs I don't speak for everyone that runs Linux. Knowing how Linux, works from Kernel to user space, from an LFS install, or simply being around it that much lends itself to being the kind of person who's able to setup, or gets paid to setup the kinds of tangible use cases others want. Like a webserver, back when it was hard. Like eg mounting files as a drive. It's just losetup then mount /dev/loop0 /mnt. That's a tangible use case where you can copy files off a dvd ISO. I'm sure you can find a program to do that on Windows, but it's basically a built in feature on Linux. Linux at the base level is workshop full of tools, it's up to you what you want to build.

brnt 2y ago

Better fuel efficiency for one. And I, for the time being, am much better at anticipating the required power output and optimal gear 5-10 seconds ahead. And of course for a lot of driving (highways) theres very little shifting anyway.

dragonelite 2y ago
On highways i just use cruise control, for the rest shifting has pretty much become automatic for me.
Hamuko 2y ago
You won’t get better fuel efficiency unless your manual gearbox has eight (or even nine or ten) gears like the automatics have now. For example, BMW says that the manual BMW M2 does 10.0–10.2 l/100km and the eight-speed automatic does 9.6–9.8 l/100 km. It’s also slightly slower and has higher emissions (since it burns more fuel too).
- brnt 2y ago
  Either of those use way too much. As sibling points out, 4.7 is more in the range of what I drive and expect. I have a Skoda Rapid with just 5 gears, and I manage to get it under 5L/100km.
  - Hamuko 2y ago
    The BMW M2 is a sports car powered by a three-litre twin-turbocharged inline-six with a bit under 500 horsepower.
- pistoleer 2y ago
  The VW Golf manual does 4.7L/100km
mgraupner 2y ago
This is not the case anymore with modern transmission having 8 to 10 gears available. See https://www.theautopian.com/heres-exactly-when-automatic-transmissions-became-more-efficient-than-manuals/ https://www.theautopian.com/heres-exactly-when-automatic-tra... I drive a BMW with a 8 gear automatic, it's always in the gear I want it to be, and I was a stick advocate for many years, no need for it anymore.

WalterBright 2y ago

A manual transmission is fun. An automatic is boring. With a manual tranny, manual brakes, manual steering, and manual suspension you feel connected to the car and the road, and it's just a joy. It's even more fun when you learn to double clutch the downshift, and work on doing a perfect downshift and entry into the turn. With practice, you can drive a stick smoother than an auto, though most never bother. The times I prefer an automatic are in stop-go traffic, and starting out uphill. I'd also prefer an automatic in a luxury car or SUV. But for a muscle car or sports car, stick all the way! You can't win a drag race with a stick, racing auto trans will always shift faster. But there's no skill in the latter, and so it's no fun. I recently took up dirt bike riding. I was repeatedly offered an electric bike, which didn't need shifting. Phooey. I wanted the gas bike with the manual shifter. And I was right, managing the engine and gear adds much fun.

scotty79 2y ago
Ones fun is somebody elses tedium.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  I know I'm an outlier.

tomxor 2y ago

Because automatics can feel slow and laggy depending on the terrain, because they can only respond to load rather than anticipate it. In the UK and EU there are lots of hills and narrow winding roads where you notice this the most; whereas if you are mostly driving on the flat automatic probably feels no different. It's also more noticeable in small cars with small engines (also more common over here out of practicality) where using the right gear at just the right time is more important if you don't want to end up stuck crawling up a hill. Most EVs are single speed transmission due to the wide range torque curve, so manual vs auto is kind of a moot point for all but very high performance vehicles anyway... Which is why this honda thing is a total gimmick, i'd happily give up manual gearbox when there is no performance and efficiency difference.

karmarepellent 2y ago
I have no data to back it up, but this is why a lot of people living in the Alps supposedly still drive cars with a manual gearbox, although generally sales of new, automatic cars are now ahead of manual ones, even in Germany.
- orwin 2y ago
  If you're a tourist who never learnt how to manage your gearbox and use an automatic, it doesn't have any impact on danger (both for yourself and other road users), at least the first days, until you learn. The issue with automatic is that you'll never have the opportunity to truly improve.

01100011 2y ago

Stick shifts are the original fidget spinners. I loved mine. I'd happily have another.

trklausss 2y ago

Been driving manual all my life and having now a DSG automatic. I love it, fuel efficiency is on par with manual. There are things that I don’t like, specifically: - Driving in traffic: If I’m inching forward, transmission suffer because it does continuously half-clutch. Much more control with a manual. - Mountain driving: I usually set it again to manual to be able to brake with the engine when going up and meeting a curve. Interestingly, it does fine going downhill. - tricky terrain: it changes wildly depending on the traction you are encountering, so manual mode helps keeping a constant rhythm and speed when traction is not optimal (snow, mud, etc) I have to admit though that the automatic is way faster than me at changing gears, which helps keeping a constant acceleration and avoid head bobbing.

tame3902 2y ago
> I have to admit though that the automatic is way faster than me at changing gears, which helps keeping a constant acceleration and avoid head bobbing. That's because a DSG gearbox has two clutches. It is basically a traditional gearbox with one clutch connected to the odd gears and one to the even gears. The system selects the next gear according to the revs of the engine and does all the physical shifting in advance. The actual gear change is then only disengaging one clutch while engaging the other one. You can overlap this so the engine continously delivers torque to the wheels. Thus, no head bobbing.
- serf 2y ago
  >You can overlap this so the engine continously delivers torque to the wheels. Thus, no head bobbing. head bobbing (sudden g-force jerks) was fixed before the introduction of another clutch; that's a function of rev-matching between upshifts and downshifts. An early BMW SMG system, a manual gearbox with electro-hydraulics on top of it to handle shifting and clutch work, gets rid of the head bobbing. How? Precise rev-matching. dual clutch systems were a means to speed the gear-shift process up, with two clutches there is no need to wait for shaft speed mismatches, you just keep the opposite clutch where you need it RPM-wise. This helps alleviate the head-bobbing, but it's more just an artifact of how the system has to work -- rev-matching is now something required in order not to blow the system up. tl;dr : it's the rev-matching saving your neck, just like it would've been doing had you been a passenger with a race driver -- but they're doing it to save tires and keep the car stable, they probably don't care about your neck.

vbezhenar 2y ago

I used cars with automatic and manual transmissions and I prefer manual. I just don't see any benefit of using automatic transmission. Manual transmission is cheaper. Manual transmission is simpler and drastically cheaper to repair. Cars with manual transmission can be towed. Automatic transmission often makes a wrong choice, so I often need to override the selection of gear. Using manual transmission is not hard or exhausting. Also automatic transmission for some reason does not want to use engine as a brake, so I need to push my brakes more often, with manual transmission I rarely have to reach brake because I can just release acceleration and it'll slow down well, I only need to brake to make a full stop.

mirsadm 2y ago
How can it be cheaper than not having a transmission at all in an EV?
M4v3R 2y ago
> I just don't see any benefit of using automatic transmission Not having to deal with gear shifting is a huge benefit for me. It takes out one non-trivial element from the whole driving experience and lets me focus more on all the other things you need to do while driving. It’s also more relaxing, especially combined with adaptive cruise control. And I never worry I will mess up the when starting from a full stop and have to restart the car. Especially when starting from an uphill. From what you described you’re the type of person that likes to have full control over the car and how it behaves, and that’s totally fine. But many of us don’t, we just care to get from point A to B with as little friction as possible. Sure, it’s more expensive to get and maintain, but that’s a price I’m fully willing to pay.
- carlmr 2y ago
  >It takes out one non-trivial element from the whole driving experience and lets me focus more on all the other things you need to do while driving. Your mind is not very busy shifting if you've been driving manual for a while.
  - 2y ago

globular-toast 2y ago

Using an auto feels like using a mobility aid. It's not fun so therefore it's something I'm forced to use. I don't transport heavy goods and I'm not disabled, why would I be using a mobility aid? Wall-E made a whole lot more sense the first time I drove an auto. Having said that, manuals are harder and I have noticed people are less willing to give up something that took time and effort to learn, so take my thoughts with a pinch of salt.

teleforce 2y ago

> How some people prefer manual is probably one of the mysteries I'll take to grave with myself. Fun facts, the new high performance Toyota GR Corolla has a new automatic gear that's proven faster than the manual version. I really hope similar things happening for programming languages with GC since D language got a lot of flak by making GC as the default. To rephrase your perplexity, how some people prefer manual memory management is probably one of the mysteries I'll take to grave with myself.

formerly_proven 2y ago
According to the press release, the GR DAT is not "proven faster than manual", but is rather supposed to be competitive with dual-clutch transmissions.
- teleforce 2y ago
  It's faster, they time both at the Toyota testing race track using the same professional driver.
theanonymousone 2y ago
More like " how some people prefer manual memory management for non-performance-critical applications".

Valgrim 2y ago

I learned to drive with a manual transmission so I'd feel comfortable driving any car in Europe, where manual transmissions are far more common. The transition was stressful but after a few hours it became easier and after a few days, it became second nature—just as easy as driving an automatic. Today, my own car has a manual transmission, which I prefer for the added control. It lets me use different levels of engine braking on downhill stretches (very useful depending on where you live) and manage my speed more precisely in heavy traffic.

petesergeant 2y ago
I’m convinced learning on an automatic first and moving to manual from that is the right way to learn. Clutch control and gear shifts are extra mental load for new drivers, and pretty natural for experienced drivers. In a car I learned manual first and it was a mission, on a bike I learned automatic first and switched to manual from that, and it was much easier.
- magnetowasright 2y ago
  That's what I did for learning to drive and it worked beautifully for me. I also got my license later than most, so when an opportunity came up to get lessons I just wanted to pass the test to get my provisional license ASAP so I could actually get around by myself with the intention to learn manual later. I did have a go at learning manual at first but it was going to take me a lot longer. I just needed to get my P plates! Where I am you don't need to retest for manual once off your provisional license which is great. When my husband and I needed to replace his car (a little manual shitbox, god bless it) I suggested we replace it with an another manual, and I wanted a hot hatch. Proper hot hatch wasn't really in the budget so we got a (luke)warm hatch instead lol. A suzuki swift, manual, which I have delusions of upgrading so I can take it on track days now that it's my daily driver. He's got the CVT gig car for his daily driver now. Anyway, I highly recommend learning automatic first and learning manual later. It's such a good skill to have anyway. I live in a bushfire prone area so knowing that if I have to evacuate I know I can confidently drive any car I have access to is nice. As long as it's synchromesh lmao
2y ago

kkapelon 2y ago

At least in Europe there have been cases where automatic transmission costs an extra 20% in the price of the car. For several people this is an important decision. So some people don't "prefer" manual. It just made sense at the time they bought the car.

theanonymousone 2y ago
Yes. I fully get that, living in Europe myself (Isn't 20% a bit too much by the way?)
- pantulis 2y ago
  The idea is that automatic transmission becomes part of a more luxurious packaged upgrade including other things. I think it was that way around two decades ago, now i'm not so sure.
- kkapelon 2y ago
  My own personal example (back in 2018) Hyundai Kona (the middle package) 22k euros with manual Hyundai Kona (the middle package) 27k euros with automatic Main point was that you could not get just automatic transmission on its own. You also had to get the 4WD drive version at the same time.

littlestymaar 2y ago

Manual transmission is harder to learn, and requires more work, but also gives the driver more control on the car. When driving an automatic car I always feel like I trade driving control in favor of convenience, and that makes me anxious whenever something happens that require driver action.

Zak 2y ago

They're more fun. You're actively operating the machinery instead of it operating itself. That probably doesn't sound fun to you, but it is to me, and I'm not alone. Until recently, manuals were also more efficient than automatics and had more gears. That was a big factor for performance cars and places with high fuel prices, but is no longer true. Now, automatics are more efficient and usually have more gears, so people who want manuals on new cars just want the additional control or engagement.

rightbyte 2y ago
You'd need to drive the automaic in semi automatic mode for it to be as efficient, right?
- Zak 2y ago
  Very unlikely. The default gear selection algorithm is optimized for efficiency in most cars.
  - rightbyte 2y ago
    Automatics usually don't plan ahead. And my experience is that responsiveness is prioritized over fuel efficiency. There should be more coasting with no gear engaged and low gear low rpm for low loads, than what automatics chose in practice. But I don't have any data at hand for practical fuel efficiency and modern automatics versus manual.
    - Zak 2y ago
      Coasting with no gear engaged consumes some fuel to keep the engine idling; coasting in gear consumes no fuel at all.
      - rightbyte 2y ago
        Yes but if you don't want to retard higher rpm in the motor gives higher losses. I think it is accurate enough to think of each revolution as a fixed cost for 'low' or idle power. At idle power the motor should probably only be engaged when also braking.

krelian 2y ago

>How some people prefer manual is probably one of the mysteries I'll take to grave with myself. When I find myself thinking like that I try to come up with generous analogies to try and position myself in a similar mindset. With manual transmission the advantage seems to be fine grained control over the engine at the cost of more complexity and additional work. This fine grained control may be imperceptible or totally unnecessary for some people. However, I run Linux for similar reasons and enjoy tinkering with it. I also tend to prefer tools that target power users at the cost of complexity. So, even if I'm not a gearhead myself, I can easily understand the preference for manual transmission by others.

rightbyte 2y ago

Automatics are more complex and harder to repair, easier breaks. Damages that would give a manual gearbox 'personality', might make the automatic refuse to engage gear at all. The accelerator padel in practice also becomes a shift down gear button. So you need to keep your feet at a more specific position of the pedal. When towing trailers the automatic gear selection is usually bad. You can't start the engine by rolling it and release the clutch when low on batteries or the starter motor is somewhat broken. I would say this is the biggest drawback of automatics. On the other hand, automatics are nice in queues.

Ccecil 2y ago
I remember my friend had a 70s Dodge Dart (Slant 6 automatic) and his starter went out. His father pushed the car with his truck up to 35mph and then he put it in drive...it push started. But yeah...typically that is a very bad idea for a number of reasons. Safety being a big one...plus, on a lot of automatics the pump is driven from the input shaft...so when coasting in neutral there is often no lubrication.

BrandoElFollito 2y ago

I live in France, so in a place where manual was the norm. I hate it compared to automatic. Automatic is so much more comfortable (in my Toyota Hybrid RAV4 at least), driving in yraffic us much easier etc. I will never buy a manual car again.

theanonymousone 2y ago
> I will never buy a manual car again. Me after I accidentally ended up buying an automatic car for the first time.
- BrandoElFollito 2y ago
  Looks like there is future for the car makers to please everyone :) One annoying thing with automatic cars here on France is that if you get your driving license on them tout cannot drive a manual without a special extra course (just driving his, no exam). A driving license done on a manual allows driving both cars.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - scotty79 2y ago
    I'm so happy I got my drivers license on manual because if I stared with automatic, knowing how good it is I wouldn't be able to force myself to endure the stupidity of manual transmission to learn it.
  - theanonymousone 2y ago
    Was the case in Switzerland too, until recently-ish when they changed it.

jinushaun 2y ago

Same reason I don’t like FSD even though as an engineer it’s cool technology: I enjoy driving. It’s like cooking your own meal versus going to a restaurant. I enjoy cooking a lot.

ryandvm 2y ago

I prefer it for better control of the shift points and I have an admittedly unfounded theory that manuals are more reliable and longer lasting than automatic transmissions.

Salgat 2y ago

What I love about electric is that there is normally no transmission. Automakers realized it was cheaper and simpler to simply ditch the transmission in favor of a stronger motor.

alex7734 2y ago

Not having an automatic transmission means there are less ways in which a manufacturer can screw up your car's performance in the name of emissions. This is obviously less relevant in America where you can still buy fast cars without being murdered by taxes.