6 ms·

Sure, but not every cross-platform app developer wants their app to look "native to iOS". Especially if you want your app to look the same on all platforms and/

by divan 2y ago

Sure, but not every cross-platform app developer wants their app to look "native to iOS". Especially if you want your app to look the same on all platforms and/or have some creative design.

pasc1878 2y ago
The trouble with this is most users only use one platform and so don't care. They just see the app as badly implemented as it does not match other apps on the platform.
- justmarc 2y ago
  Why would an app not looking like a native app automatically be seen as badly implemented?
  - jwells89 2y ago
    Not all non-native-looking apps are badly implemented, but a huge number of apps that use cross-platform frameworks do so primarily as a means to cut costs because the goal is to make development as cheap as possible, and that shows in other aspects of these apps too. This creates an association between cheap/lazy apps and cross platform UI frameworks. It’s kind of like the difference between VS Code and MS Teams. Same company, same underlying technology (Electron), but Code is good while Teams is awful because MS invests so much more in Code. Even so, Teams-type apps are what tends to come to mind when people think of Electron apps because those are so much more common.
    - Anon1096 2y ago
      You could not be further from the truth regarding the size of the Teams vs VS Code teams. Teams has multiple times more developers, it's not a problem of funding that makes it suck.
      - justmarc 2y ago
        Sometimes the bigger the team, the messier it gets and quality suffers greatly.
  - pasc1878 2y ago
    In my case there is another reason - if it looks cross platform it is probably taking up more resources than a native app.
- divan 2y ago
  What kind of users/apps are these? I'm genuinely curious about this, actually. I have a couple of apps with 100K+ installs, and I talk to people who are actual users from time to time. I have never ever heard the claim that they don't like UI because it doesn't feel native. Like ever. But I can imagine that in some niches/demographics/app types it might be different. Can you share some evidence or explain how you built the understanding that users dislike non-native UIs?
  - Eisenstein 2y ago
    A lot of people try an app and stop using it. Talking to active users seems you are missing the people who don't like it enough to stop using it.
    - divan 2y ago
      I think it may be true only for the apps that are easily replaceable.
    - satvikpendem 2y ago
      I've built apps with pretty high retention rate so even if they're annoyed, it doesn't seem like they really stop using them. Mostly though, based on user feedback we collected, not once have I heard anything about UI complaints. It really feels like this is a common refrain on HN about what HNers think happens in theory versus what actually happens in reality wrt user preferences.
      - Eisenstein 2y ago
        Note, this has nothing to do with your app or this specific discussed GUI, but this is something I have noticed over time... I think that what is commonly seen by devs as complaining and being overly concerned with details that don't matter is instead a some of the time advocacy for doing things the right way for the sake of it. It is totally possible to build things that meet the bare minimum requirements for user retention and for people to not complain, but that doesn't mean that it is optimal. You can build Soviet style housing blocks that people live in that are completely functional and that no one will have any problem with, but the quality of life is degraded as opposed to what could have been built. It can be tough seeing through the grumpy nerd 'I want it my way because my way is best' and finding what is actually 'this is a good thing that we should be doing, and if we did there would be a marked improvement for everyone', but I would not forsake one due to the other.
- myko 2y ago
  I used to think this, now I think nobody cares except people "in the know" Every time I've ever mentioned it to anyone they really didn't seem to understand or care
  - satvikpendem 2y ago
    It really feels like an "HN bubble" type argument, I've literally never heard it outside of HN.
deergomoo 2y ago
I can appreciate that as a developer, but as a user I don’t particularly care that some company wants to ship identical looking apps on every device under the sun. I would prefer the apps I use to work and behave in a consistent way, using the same platform idioms I am used to. The software available and how it works was a large part of the reason I chose the platform I did. Of course, I recognise that, a. most people just don’t care about platform idioms, and b. the choice is often a non-native app or no app at all.
- brewii 2y ago
  Pretty sure most large succesful apps have their own UI and UI design teams. Cant remember the last time i saw anything cupertino in an app. Even Apples own 'Home' app only loosely use cupertino. Id say the most noticable effect is the bottom modal sheet slide up effect. on ios the original screen animates into the background a little bit. Apps that dont implement this can be spotted but thats not unique to flutter at all and flutter even offers a pretty good cupertino scaffold package that does this animation.
  - deergomoo 2y ago
    You’re completely right, but that doesn’t change the fact that I think it’s a bad idea. For a company that used to care so much about user experience, Apple has been throwing a lot of it out the window in recent years.
  - jwells89 2y ago
    The two things that stick out the most to me are navigation behavior and text fields. Cross platform frameworks seldom get either right, with react native being particularly bad on the navigation front. There are variances between Apple’s apps but they’re all using some combination of UIKit and SwiftUI regardless which limits how “wrong” they can be.
  - dwaite 2y ago
    "cupertino" is the name of a Flutter widget set, not of the native platform controls or L&F. Few Flutter apps are going to use cupertino because the whole goal of using Flutter is to create cross platform codebases to save development effort. To use an alternative widget set per platform is a huge amount of additional work, and having a cupertino app running on Android is even more of a sore thumb than a material app on iOS.
oneplane 2y ago
In those cases, those app developers aren't doing cross-platform development, but are just trying to dump their app in as many places as possible. In such a case, why not just make a PWA and call it a day? Don't need an app if you aren't going to go native, especially with most apps being either content readers or CRUD apps anyway. In most cases, I personally rarely want an app, and I'll use a website unless they happen to have created a great native experience. And since most apps don't, I don't use them, and I don't have a lot of apps as a result.
- ascorbic 2y ago
  Because most users have no idea what a pwa is or how to install it. They expect to be able to go to the app store and install an app.
  - oneplane 2y ago
    That is exactly the reply I was hoping for. Because that brings us straight back to the native issue; users also expect the app to work in a way that is comfortable and known to them.
mirzap 2y ago
Developers who think that way have no clue what their users want. Most iOS users want a native experience, not something else. When I see an app that doesn't have that, I quickly lose interest. Having the app look the same on all platforms is a dumb idea to start with.
- amelius 2y ago
  Are these the same users that prefer websites without CSS?
  - kelnos 2y ago
    Websites and apps aren't directly comparable when it comes to this metric.
- Kiro 2y ago
  Funny how you are calling people clueless while being confidently incorrect. You're in absolute minority.
kelnos 2y ago
As an on-again off-again (currently off-again) cross-platform app developer, I always want my app to look like it fits in with the rest of the apps on whatever platform it's deployed to. As a user, I hate it when some app developer thinks they're cute and wants to skin an app differently or draw their own ad-hoc widgets.

by divan 2y ago

Sure, but not every cross-platform app developer wants their app to look "native to iOS". Especially if you want your app to look the same on all platforms and/or have some creative design.

pasc1878 2y ago

The trouble with this is most users only use one platform and so don't care. They just see the app as badly implemented as it does not match other apps on the platform.

justmarc 2y ago
Why would an app not looking like a native app automatically be seen as badly implemented?
- jwells89 2y ago
  Not all non-native-looking apps are badly implemented, but a huge number of apps that use cross-platform frameworks do so primarily as a means to cut costs because the goal is to make development as cheap as possible, and that shows in other aspects of these apps too. This creates an association between cheap/lazy apps and cross platform UI frameworks. It’s kind of like the difference between VS Code and MS Teams. Same company, same underlying technology (Electron), but Code is good while Teams is awful because MS invests so much more in Code. Even so, Teams-type apps are what tends to come to mind when people think of Electron apps because those are so much more common.
  - Anon1096 2y ago
    You could not be further from the truth regarding the size of the Teams vs VS Code teams. Teams has multiple times more developers, it's not a problem of funding that makes it suck.
    - justmarc 2y ago
      Sometimes the bigger the team, the messier it gets and quality suffers greatly.
- pasc1878 2y ago
  In my case there is another reason - if it looks cross platform it is probably taking up more resources than a native app.
divan 2y ago
What kind of users/apps are these? I'm genuinely curious about this, actually. I have a couple of apps with 100K+ installs, and I talk to people who are actual users from time to time. I have never ever heard the claim that they don't like UI because it doesn't feel native. Like ever. But I can imagine that in some niches/demographics/app types it might be different. Can you share some evidence or explain how you built the understanding that users dislike non-native UIs?
- Eisenstein 2y ago
  A lot of people try an app and stop using it. Talking to active users seems you are missing the people who don't like it enough to stop using it.
  - divan 2y ago
    I think it may be true only for the apps that are easily replaceable.
  - satvikpendem 2y ago
    I've built apps with pretty high retention rate so even if they're annoyed, it doesn't seem like they really stop using them. Mostly though, based on user feedback we collected, not once have I heard anything about UI complaints. It really feels like this is a common refrain on HN about what HNers think happens in theory versus what actually happens in reality wrt user preferences.
    - Eisenstein 2y ago
      Note, this has nothing to do with your app or this specific discussed GUI, but this is something I have noticed over time... I think that what is commonly seen by devs as complaining and being overly concerned with details that don't matter is instead a some of the time advocacy for doing things the right way for the sake of it. It is totally possible to build things that meet the bare minimum requirements for user retention and for people to not complain, but that doesn't mean that it is optimal. You can build Soviet style housing blocks that people live in that are completely functional and that no one will have any problem with, but the quality of life is degraded as opposed to what could have been built. It can be tough seeing through the grumpy nerd 'I want it my way because my way is best' and finding what is actually 'this is a good thing that we should be doing, and if we did there would be a marked improvement for everyone', but I would not forsake one due to the other.
myko 2y ago
I used to think this, now I think nobody cares except people "in the know" Every time I've ever mentioned it to anyone they really didn't seem to understand or care
- satvikpendem 2y ago
  It really feels like an "HN bubble" type argument, I've literally never heard it outside of HN.

deergomoo 2y ago

I can appreciate that as a developer, but as a user I don’t particularly care that some company wants to ship identical looking apps on every device under the sun. I would prefer the apps I use to work and behave in a consistent way, using the same platform idioms I am used to. The software available and how it works was a large part of the reason I chose the platform I did. Of course, I recognise that, a. most people just don’t care about platform idioms, and b. the choice is often a non-native app or no app at all.

brewii 2y ago
Pretty sure most large succesful apps have their own UI and UI design teams. Cant remember the last time i saw anything cupertino in an app. Even Apples own 'Home' app only loosely use cupertino. Id say the most noticable effect is the bottom modal sheet slide up effect. on ios the original screen animates into the background a little bit. Apps that dont implement this can be spotted but thats not unique to flutter at all and flutter even offers a pretty good cupertino scaffold package that does this animation.
- deergomoo 2y ago
  You’re completely right, but that doesn’t change the fact that I think it’s a bad idea. For a company that used to care so much about user experience, Apple has been throwing a lot of it out the window in recent years.
- jwells89 2y ago
  The two things that stick out the most to me are navigation behavior and text fields. Cross platform frameworks seldom get either right, with react native being particularly bad on the navigation front. There are variances between Apple’s apps but they’re all using some combination of UIKit and SwiftUI regardless which limits how “wrong” they can be.
- dwaite 2y ago
  "cupertino" is the name of a Flutter widget set, not of the native platform controls or L&F. Few Flutter apps are going to use cupertino because the whole goal of using Flutter is to create cross platform codebases to save development effort. To use an alternative widget set per platform is a huge amount of additional work, and having a cupertino app running on Android is even more of a sore thumb than a material app on iOS.

oneplane 2y ago

In those cases, those app developers aren't doing cross-platform development, but are just trying to dump their app in as many places as possible. In such a case, why not just make a PWA and call it a day? Don't need an app if you aren't going to go native, especially with most apps being either content readers or CRUD apps anyway. In most cases, I personally rarely want an app, and I'll use a website unless they happen to have created a great native experience. And since most apps don't, I don't use them, and I don't have a lot of apps as a result.

ascorbic 2y ago
Because most users have no idea what a pwa is or how to install it. They expect to be able to go to the app store and install an app.
- oneplane 2y ago
  That is exactly the reply I was hoping for. Because that brings us straight back to the native issue; users also expect the app to work in a way that is comfortable and known to them.

mirzap 2y ago

Developers who think that way have no clue what their users want. Most iOS users want a native experience, not something else. When I see an app that doesn't have that, I quickly lose interest. Having the app look the same on all platforms is a dumb idea to start with.

amelius 2y ago
Are these the same users that prefer websites without CSS?
- kelnos 2y ago
  Websites and apps aren't directly comparable when it comes to this metric.
Kiro 2y ago
Funny how you are calling people clueless while being confidently incorrect. You're in absolute minority.

kelnos 2y ago

As an on-again off-again (currently off-again) cross-platform app developer, I always want my app to look like it fits in with the rest of the apps on whatever platform it's deployed to. As a user, I hate it when some app developer thinks they're cute and wants to skin an app differently or draw their own ad-hoc widgets.