8 ms·

Freenet: A decentralized alternative to world wide web

179 points by udev4096 2y ago

sourcepluck 2y ago
Would love to see some network like Freenet start to see more adoption - it seems obvious that we need something like this. GNUnet seems to have some interesting ideas and good motivations too. I will admit that I didn't follow the renaming or possibly forking or whatever happened to freenet / hyphanet / etc back last when I was reading about this. If someone could explain it clearly that would be stellar.
- garydevenay 2y ago
  Nostr (https://nostr.com/ https://nostr.com/) is doing reasonably- though I think most apps are still in the social media realm.
  - squarefoot 2y ago
    Not judging technically, but there are reasons I wouldn't touch it with a 10 meters pole. https://archive.ph/TLwch https://archive.ph/TLwch
    - nixdev 2y ago
      [flagged]
  - CertumIter 2y ago
    Hyphanet is great but requires some basic skills and hardware for running. Using Nostr with Primal as a client works exceptionally well as a Twitter alternative. It's privacy-respecting, censorship-resistant, and truly an outstanding tool. I'm grateful it exists to counter the current wave of regulatory overreach threatening free speech, even in Western countries.
- EGreg 2y ago
  I wonder how much Freenet would be considered “web3” and “blockchain” by the HN crowd, considering it explicitly uses smart contracts and transactions signed by self-custodied private keys Guess it’s all in how you present things and what terms you avoid :) For what it’s worth, I am interested very much in decentralized systems and smart contracts, having built them and also running a YouTube channel where I interviewed people behind the projects… including Ian Clarke and freenet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWrRqUkJpMQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWrRqUkJpMQ
  - tg180 2y ago
    Personally, I don’t consider Freenet and Hyphanet to be "blockchain" in the modern sense, and given how much the meaning of "web3" has changed in recent years, I think it might evolve further. Freenet stands apart with goals and ideals that are quite different from today’s distributed applications, with a stronger focus on privacy and access to information. Neither Freenet nor Hyphanet are linked to cryptocurrencies or financial speculation. I see them as decentralized networks created to ensure freedom of expression, privacy, and access to information in an anonymous and censorship-resistant way, without any intrinsic connection to cryptocurrencies or financial systems. And that's great! I also believe the project has gained a certain credibility over time, thanks to the consistent work and vision of its developers. I’ll check out your interview with Ian Clarke!
    - sanity 2y ago
      Freenet and Hyphanet aren't blockchain, although the original Freenet did pioneer the cryptographic contract back in 2000 (we called them "signed subspace keys"), which a few years later would form the basis for Bitcoin. Freenet is designed to be a general-purpose platform for building and distributing decentralized systems like group chat[1], social networks, search, really anything that people use the Internet for today. Some people think of blockchain this way but blockchain is much more specialized (eg. group chat on blockchain wouldn't scale). [1] https://github.com/freenet/river https://github.com/freenet/river
- sanity 2y ago
  > I will admit that I didn't follow the renaming or possibly forking or whatever happened to freenet / hyphanet / etc back last when I was reading about this. If someone could explain it clearly that would be stellar. The reasons for the renaming are addressed directly in Freenet's FAQ[1]: # Why was Freenet rearchitected and rebranded? In 2019, Ian began developing a successor to the original Freenet, internally named “Locutus.” This redesign was a ground-up reimagining, incorporating lessons learned from the original Freenet and addressing modern challenges. The original Freenet, although groundbreaking, was built for an earlier era. This isn’t the first time Freenet has undergone significant changes. Around 2005, we transitioned from version 0.5 to 0.7, which was a complete rewrite introducing “friend-to-friend” networking. In March 2023, the original Freenet (developed from 2005 onwards) was spun off into an independent project called “Hyphanet” under its existing maintainers. Concurrently, “Locutus” was rebranded as “Freenet,” also known as “Freenet 2023,” to signal this new direction and focus. The rearchitected Freenet is faster, more flexible, and better equipped to offer a robust, decentralized alternative to the increasingly centralized web. To ease the transition the old freenetproject.org domain was redirected to hyphanet’s website, while the recently acquired freenet.org domain was used for the new architecture. It is important to note that the maintainers of the original Freenet did not agree with the decision to rearchitect and rebrand. However, as the architect of the Freenet Project, and after over a year of debate, Ian felt this was the necessary path forward to ensure the project’s continued relevance and success in a world far different than when he designed the previous architecture. [1] https://freenet.org/faq/#why-was-freenet-rearchitected-and-rebranded https://freenet.org/faq/#why-was-freenet-rearchitected-and-r...
  - sourcepluck 2y ago
    Thank you very much, I've been browsing a bit since your thorough reply, looking forward to having more of an investigation one of these days when I get a few hours free in a row to have a good go.
wutwutwat 2y ago
www is already decentralized
- _nalply 2y ago
  To some extent yes. However to host something yourself you need a lot of things, for example FTTH to host it at your home, or a hosting provider; then a domain name and other things. These can be taken away from you.
  - imoverclocked 2y ago
    How does freenet let you own something outright?
    - sanity 2y ago
      On Freenet you own things cryptographically, typically by possessing a private key. This is similar to a Bitcoin wallet although Freenet isn't a cryptocurrency, it's a general-purpose platform for building and distributing scalable decentralized services.
  - arcticbull 2y ago
    You don’t need fiber to host basic services, and once you do, it’s not really a problem.
    - squarefoot 2y ago
      You need a public IP, though, and many home contracts put customers behind NAT.
  - lottin 2y ago
    Your point being?
    - _nalply 2y ago
      When many people have the ability to publish independently without relying on a central service, then it’s decentralized. The World Wide Web was initially designed to be decentralized, with the idea that anyone connecting to the internet could host a web server. In practice, however, this didn’t quite work out. Most people publish through centralized services like Instagram, to name just one. There are two main obstacles to achieving decentralization. The first is technical difficulty: not everyone wants to learn how to run a web server. The second is reliance on foundational services like domain names and hosting, which can be revoked. For example, if the authorities think you did something illegal, boom, your domain name got confiscated. So, no, in practice, the World Wide Web isn’t truly decentralized. But at least there remains some possibility for it.
coldblues 2y ago
The old Freenet project is now named Hyphanet and is available at https://www.hyphanet.org/index.html https://www.hyphanet.org/index.html
- bbor 2y ago
  Fascinating! I thought this was cool as I clicked through, I'm glad to see that it's been a dramatic topic for 25 years, not just some new idea. Hyphanet seems more openly political, which makes sense but is kinda a hard sell for me after seeing the impact Bitcoin had on US citizens vis-a-vis scams, hacks, and misc. bad actors. But maybe that's a sacrifice worth making in the name of residents of less free nation states? Either way, pretty funny when a software project has to tackle questions like "what is property in the modern era?" and "what is free speech?" in their FAQ. That's how you know you're really pushing against the status quo, I guess...
  - chx 2y ago
    > after seeing the impact Bitcoin had on US citizens That's an odd way of putting it, as if crypto scams were limited to the US.
  - 76j76j 2y ago
    Those scams are not isolated to Bitcoin. You see them in many content creator industries. They are giveaway scams and templated to fit a niche. You can do them for gambling, gaming like cs-go skin giveaways, makeup giveaways and so on. They are really easy scams to do because you can just wait for the next trendy thing to happen and then target that trend with bot accounts. On youtube they will often just recycle what accounts don't get reported. Platforms do their best to take care of this, but these scams are so easy to run that you can automate them and spin up new accounts very quickly. Even if there are financial barriers it can still be madly profitable to accept the costs. There is no clear way to deal with the concerns you mentioned, but I think playing too safe and not exploring technology will quickly put you behind the curb. Most of it can be resolved with good financial regulation.
    - 2y ago
drdaeman 2y ago
Ha, looks like I missed a 2023 drama when the original Freenet was renamed to Hyphanet, and Locutus became Freenet (https://www.hyphanet.org/freenet-renamed-to-hyphanet.html https://www.hyphanet.org/freenet-renamed-to-hyphanet.html; https://freenet.org/faq/#how-do-the-previous-and-current-versions-of-freenet-differ https://freenet.org/faq/#how-do-the-previous-and-current-ver...) I used to check out the original version a few times in the past. I loved the overall premise of a uncensored network (for the context: I lived in an authoritorian country that doubled down on censoring online communications), but no system I've tried out (Freenet, ZeroNet, I2P, Tor) grew on me. Too much, uh, weird stuff (or worse), while interesting content was pretty sparse. And I don't produce anything worthy of sharing myself. The tech could be there, but the society is not. [Not] surprisingly, the social demand seems to be all focused on to work around the Internet censorship with very limited interest in bootstrapping something that would be resistant. At scale, humans always pick the cheapest/lowest-effort option, even if it's obviously sub-optimal and even if it leads nowhere we want (or so I think) to be.
- jc_sec 2y ago
  This was my experience with matrix.org, mostly pedos and far right extremists or other weird anti social characters . Turned me off from these kinds of platforms big time.
  - nemomarx 2y ago
    if every bar in town bans nazis or punks, even if the last bar has high minded ideals you kinda know which clientele they'll get
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - imtringued 2y ago
      I visited matrix.org once and I somehow only stumbled into the high minded clientele.
  - 2y ago
EGreg 2y ago
I interviewed the founder of the original freenet and the current freenet, Ian Clarke (among others) on our channel about decentralized systems, might be interesting for the people here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWrRqUkJpMQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWrRqUkJpMQ It is on our channel https://youtube.com/Intercoin https://youtube.com/Intercoin where I tried for a few years to have really deep dives with some of the too people on technology, sociopolitics and regulations around decentralized systems.
- tejtm 2y ago
  On the mention "original freenet" In the late 1980s early 1990s, FreeNet was not (just) a web domain name. Freenet was decentralized idea of how the public (me) could get on the internet without already being a member of a privileged institution (or rich and sophisticated). I believe the idea of what the freenet was prior to becoming a brandname is worthy of being remembered. I'm not much of a tube clicker here, so apologies if this is redundant with the video.
Dwedit 2y ago
Did Freenet ever get over its "content moderation" problem? Don't want to summon the FBI.
- immibis 2y ago
  resisting censorship is fundamentally at odds with supporting censorship
- sanity 2y ago
  The new Freenet is more of a communication than a storage medium which makes content moderation less of an issue, but we're planning to build a decentralized reputation system based on the idea of "web of trust" that should do at least as good a job of protecting people from stuff they don't want to see as today's centralized services.
- nixdev 2y ago
  > Did HTTP over get over its "content moderation" problem? Don't want to summon the FBI.
  - Dwedit 2y ago
    HTTP is not a protocol that automatically distributes content to participating nodes.
nanolith 2y ago
While Locutus is an improvement on the previous Hyphanet model, I'm still concerned about the caching model. In Hyphanet, data would be cached the more it was used, and peers connected over multiple hops. This had the potential to cause huge headaches as authorities began investigating issues such as CSAM, because their understanding of how caching and requests work did not match up with how it actually worked. While, certainly, one could build a subset darknet, all it takes is one bad peer to expose the whole darknet to prosecution. I played with Freenet when it first came out, but when I realized the implications of this -- which later turned out to be true -- I destroyed the hard drive I had been using to run Freenet, just in case. Locutus seems less aggressive about caching data, but it still does some caching. Without really digging into the documentation or source code, I'd still be nervous about running it.
- immibis 2y ago
  Under EU rules (Digital Services Act) I believe an automated cache is treated similarly to a pipe - you're no more responsible for holding content in your cache (especially if encrypted!) than a Tor node operator is for someone accessing it through Tor. German police did raid the home of a guy who ran a lot of Tor nodes. Authoritarians don't need any technical excuse to raid your home - they can just do it if they want to scare you away from these platforms, regardless of how they work.
  - nanolith 2y ago
    Unfortunately, US case law is murkier. There have been some notable convictions of people using the old Freenet to search or host CSAM. However, the digital forensics used in these cases was pretty sketchy. If someone simply caching data from downstream queries were held to the same standard, they'd also be considered guilty. I have no doubt that there was other evidence that led to the conviction of these individuals. But, I can only go on what I know, and what I know is that the standard of digital forensics evidence in those cases was subpar.
- sanity 2y ago
  Locutus (now Freenet) is more of a communication than a storage medium. It's focused more on allowing people to build decentralized tools like group chat[1] for realtime communication than be a content distribution network like bittorrent. We're also planning a decentralized reputation system based on the concept of "web of trust" that should do at least as good a job of ensuring users aren't exposed to unwanted content like spam or worse. [1] https://github.com/freenet/river https://github.com/freenet/river
angelorue 2y ago
It seems interesting, I've seen this before, but i'm lost. How do I get it, does it incorporate with the OG internet or what?
- sanity 2y ago
  We haven't launched yet but we're very[1] close, hopefully just days away as we tie up loose ends. This[2] diagram hopefully gives a big-picture view of where Freenet fits in. You install the Freenet software (which is tiny, less than 10MB) and then you can access Freenet through your web browser just like with the world wide web. The difference is that there are no servers or datacenters, it's all decentralized. [1] https://freenet.org/news/weekly-dev-meeting-2024-10-11/ https://freenet.org/news/weekly-dev-meeting-2024-10-11/ [2] https://docs.freenet.org https://docs.freenet.org
okasaki 2y ago
Interesting that the new freenet is written in rust. I always thought the worst part of freenet was that it required java. I haven't used freenet in a long time. Last time I did I'm pretty sure satoshi was posting the og bitcoin releases on the message board (freechat?). Crazy times.
- sanity 2y ago
  Yeah, there was a decent argument for Java in the early 2000s before it was obvious that Java would fail to gain traction on the desktop. Rust was the obvious choice when I started work on the new Freenet in 2019.
wkyleg 2y ago
When I was ~14 I downloaded Freenet after finding it on Stumbleupon. After wondering why my laptop was loosing RAM for a few months, I realized I had been running a node continuously. Great to see it's still alive though.
SagelyGuru 2y ago
Leave the field to the censors, create an alternative, and hope that they will not pursue you? Or stand your ground and fight them wherever they are? That is the question.
- CertumIter 2y ago
  Let's do both, since one fosters the other.
stunpix 2y ago
It’s no longer funny to see how developers again and again are trying to fix problems of real world by creating digital hideouts because this is the only thing developers do the best - programming. Whenever we see a problem with banks, governments, corporations, we immediately try to fix the problem with “own digital alternative”. But hiding from the real problem in a new network doesn’t fix remaining initial problem for the rest of the world. Complex socio-economic problems shall be fixed with socio-economical instruments. No new network could solve problems of monopolies and profit-greedy corporations.
- sanity 2y ago
  It's a technical solution to a technical problem, that problem being the client-server architecture which inherently centralizes control and disempowers users. The Internet started out peer-to-peer, but client-server became dominant during the 90s when the Internet became mainstream - because at the time it was the only option for building services that scaled. Freenet provides an alternative to the client-server architecture that doesn't require compromising on user experience or scalability.
- x-complexity 2y ago
  > Complex socio-economic problems shall be fixed with socio-economical instruments. Missing the forest for the trees. The socio-economic problems are caused by the limitations & drawbacks of modern tech: It's too easy to centralize control over a platform, whilst keeping things decentralized requires an upfront desire to do so, along with the nightmare that is backwards compatibility. > No new network could solve problems of monopolies and profit-greedy corporations. It is a solvable problem. Monopolies & rent-seeking behaviors happen because the tech involved has chokepoints that favor centralized entities. We know the business processes that should happen for running service X, based on our daily interactions with them and the idealized form of how they should work. Breaking the processes down into components & putting them onto a decentralized compute platform would significantly relax their control over common chokepoints. Dispute processes would be made as public as current government processes, ideally Estonian-like.
  - 2y ago
brunoqc 2y ago
It's taking a while for the new version to come out. It has been "weeks away" for like a year now.
- sanity 2y ago
  That's fair, in December last year we realized that we'd need to implement our own transport layer after discovering that the off-the-shelf library we planned to use wasn't flexible enough for our needs. But the new transport layer is done, unit tests pass, simulations are working, and we're now cleaning up loose ends so this time I think we really are days or weeks away.
  - brunoqc 2y ago
    Glad to hear that progress is being made. I can't wait to try it. Thanks!
johnea 2y ago
That's pretty funny 8-) Their declaring their freedom and independance in a Matrix chat channel 8-) This reminds me of the recent Guardian article headlined: "Americans who believe in democracy have no choice but to vote for Harris" https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/26/vote-kamala-harris-observer-editorial https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/26/vote-k... How can it be democracy if there's only one choice?
- sanity 2y ago
  We're working on a decentralized group chat app for Freenet called River[1]. We'll migrate our channel from Matrix to River once it's working reliably. [1] https://github.com/freenet/river/ https://github.com/freenet/river/
  - Arathorn 2y ago
    in terms of namespace collisions, beware https://www.river.build https://www.river.build is already a thing
    - sanity 2y ago
      Noted. It's true that there are a few projects using the name River - which is unsurprising for such a common word, but nothing with significant traction so far as I'm aware.
vfclists 2y ago
First step in checking out Freenet - Click on link to see some video about Freenet - https://freenet.org/news/ghost-keys-ian-interview/ https://freenet.org/news/ghost-keys-ian-interview/ Google video saying "Sign in to prove that you are not a bot" Ian? Freenet? Really? Am I a joke to you? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GbE3OkwWwAA25N_?format=jpg&name=small https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GbE3OkwWwAA25N_?format=jpg&name=...
- sanity 2y ago
  Look under the video and you'll find links to the same video on Rumble and X, take your pick.
ceving 2y ago
If it is a distributed computer: how to prevent crypto mining?
- sanity 2y ago
  Good question - computationally expensive contracts will be removed automatically as part of a mechanism that keeps track of cost/benefit to the peer for each contract.

179 points by udev4096 2y ago

Would love to see some network like Freenet start to see more adoption - it seems obvious that we need something like this. GNUnet seems to have some interesting ideas and good motivations too. I will admit that I didn't follow the renaming or possibly forking or whatever happened to freenet / hyphanet / etc back last when I was reading about this. If someone could explain it clearly that would be stellar.

garydevenay 2y ago
Nostr (https://nostr.com/ https://nostr.com/) is doing reasonably- though I think most apps are still in the social media realm.
- squarefoot 2y ago
  Not judging technically, but there are reasons I wouldn't touch it with a 10 meters pole. https://archive.ph/TLwch https://archive.ph/TLwch
  - nixdev 2y ago
    [flagged]
- CertumIter 2y ago
  Hyphanet is great but requires some basic skills and hardware for running. Using Nostr with Primal as a client works exceptionally well as a Twitter alternative. It's privacy-respecting, censorship-resistant, and truly an outstanding tool. I'm grateful it exists to counter the current wave of regulatory overreach threatening free speech, even in Western countries.
EGreg 2y ago
I wonder how much Freenet would be considered “web3” and “blockchain” by the HN crowd, considering it explicitly uses smart contracts and transactions signed by self-custodied private keys Guess it’s all in how you present things and what terms you avoid :) For what it’s worth, I am interested very much in decentralized systems and smart contracts, having built them and also running a YouTube channel where I interviewed people behind the projects… including Ian Clarke and freenet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWrRqUkJpMQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWrRqUkJpMQ
- tg180 2y ago
  Personally, I don’t consider Freenet and Hyphanet to be "blockchain" in the modern sense, and given how much the meaning of "web3" has changed in recent years, I think it might evolve further. Freenet stands apart with goals and ideals that are quite different from today’s distributed applications, with a stronger focus on privacy and access to information. Neither Freenet nor Hyphanet are linked to cryptocurrencies or financial speculation. I see them as decentralized networks created to ensure freedom of expression, privacy, and access to information in an anonymous and censorship-resistant way, without any intrinsic connection to cryptocurrencies or financial systems. And that's great! I also believe the project has gained a certain credibility over time, thanks to the consistent work and vision of its developers. I’ll check out your interview with Ian Clarke!
  - sanity 2y ago
    Freenet and Hyphanet aren't blockchain, although the original Freenet did pioneer the cryptographic contract back in 2000 (we called them "signed subspace keys"), which a few years later would form the basis for Bitcoin. Freenet is designed to be a general-purpose platform for building and distributing decentralized systems like group chat[1], social networks, search, really anything that people use the Internet for today. Some people think of blockchain this way but blockchain is much more specialized (eg. group chat on blockchain wouldn't scale). [1] https://github.com/freenet/river https://github.com/freenet/river
sanity 2y ago
> I will admit that I didn't follow the renaming or possibly forking or whatever happened to freenet / hyphanet / etc back last when I was reading about this. If someone could explain it clearly that would be stellar. The reasons for the renaming are addressed directly in Freenet's FAQ[1]: # Why was Freenet rearchitected and rebranded? In 2019, Ian began developing a successor to the original Freenet, internally named “Locutus.” This redesign was a ground-up reimagining, incorporating lessons learned from the original Freenet and addressing modern challenges. The original Freenet, although groundbreaking, was built for an earlier era. This isn’t the first time Freenet has undergone significant changes. Around 2005, we transitioned from version 0.5 to 0.7, which was a complete rewrite introducing “friend-to-friend” networking. In March 2023, the original Freenet (developed from 2005 onwards) was spun off into an independent project called “Hyphanet” under its existing maintainers. Concurrently, “Locutus” was rebranded as “Freenet,” also known as “Freenet 2023,” to signal this new direction and focus. The rearchitected Freenet is faster, more flexible, and better equipped to offer a robust, decentralized alternative to the increasingly centralized web. To ease the transition the old freenetproject.org domain was redirected to hyphanet’s website, while the recently acquired freenet.org domain was used for the new architecture. It is important to note that the maintainers of the original Freenet did not agree with the decision to rearchitect and rebrand. However, as the architect of the Freenet Project, and after over a year of debate, Ian felt this was the necessary path forward to ensure the project’s continued relevance and success in a world far different than when he designed the previous architecture. [1] https://freenet.org/faq/#why-was-freenet-rearchitected-and-rebranded https://freenet.org/faq/#why-was-freenet-rearchitected-and-r...
- sourcepluck 2y ago
  Thank you very much, I've been browsing a bit since your thorough reply, looking forward to having more of an investigation one of these days when I get a few hours free in a row to have a good go.

wutwutwat 2y ago

www is already decentralized

_nalply 2y ago
To some extent yes. However to host something yourself you need a lot of things, for example FTTH to host it at your home, or a hosting provider; then a domain name and other things. These can be taken away from you.
- imoverclocked 2y ago
  How does freenet let you own something outright?
  - sanity 2y ago
    On Freenet you own things cryptographically, typically by possessing a private key. This is similar to a Bitcoin wallet although Freenet isn't a cryptocurrency, it's a general-purpose platform for building and distributing scalable decentralized services.
- arcticbull 2y ago
  You don’t need fiber to host basic services, and once you do, it’s not really a problem.
  - squarefoot 2y ago
    You need a public IP, though, and many home contracts put customers behind NAT.
- lottin 2y ago
  Your point being?
  - _nalply 2y ago
    When many people have the ability to publish independently without relying on a central service, then it’s decentralized. The World Wide Web was initially designed to be decentralized, with the idea that anyone connecting to the internet could host a web server. In practice, however, this didn’t quite work out. Most people publish through centralized services like Instagram, to name just one. There are two main obstacles to achieving decentralization. The first is technical difficulty: not everyone wants to learn how to run a web server. The second is reliance on foundational services like domain names and hosting, which can be revoked. For example, if the authorities think you did something illegal, boom, your domain name got confiscated. So, no, in practice, the World Wide Web isn’t truly decentralized. But at least there remains some possibility for it.

coldblues 2y ago

The old Freenet project is now named Hyphanet and is available at https://www.hyphanet.org/index.html https://www.hyphanet.org/index.html

bbor 2y ago
Fascinating! I thought this was cool as I clicked through, I'm glad to see that it's been a dramatic topic for 25 years, not just some new idea. Hyphanet seems more openly political, which makes sense but is kinda a hard sell for me after seeing the impact Bitcoin had on US citizens vis-a-vis scams, hacks, and misc. bad actors. But maybe that's a sacrifice worth making in the name of residents of less free nation states? Either way, pretty funny when a software project has to tackle questions like "what is property in the modern era?" and "what is free speech?" in their FAQ. That's how you know you're really pushing against the status quo, I guess...
- chx 2y ago
  > after seeing the impact Bitcoin had on US citizens That's an odd way of putting it, as if crypto scams were limited to the US.
- 76j76j 2y ago
  Those scams are not isolated to Bitcoin. You see them in many content creator industries. They are giveaway scams and templated to fit a niche. You can do them for gambling, gaming like cs-go skin giveaways, makeup giveaways and so on. They are really easy scams to do because you can just wait for the next trendy thing to happen and then target that trend with bot accounts. On youtube they will often just recycle what accounts don't get reported. Platforms do their best to take care of this, but these scams are so easy to run that you can automate them and spin up new accounts very quickly. Even if there are financial barriers it can still be madly profitable to accept the costs. There is no clear way to deal with the concerns you mentioned, but I think playing too safe and not exploring technology will quickly put you behind the curb. Most of it can be resolved with good financial regulation.
  - 2y ago

drdaeman 2y ago

Ha, looks like I missed a 2023 drama when the original Freenet was renamed to Hyphanet, and Locutus became Freenet (https://www.hyphanet.org/freenet-renamed-to-hyphanet.html https://www.hyphanet.org/freenet-renamed-to-hyphanet.html; https://freenet.org/faq/#how-do-the-previous-and-current-versions-of-freenet-differ https://freenet.org/faq/#how-do-the-previous-and-current-ver...) I used to check out the original version a few times in the past. I loved the overall premise of a uncensored network (for the context: I lived in an authoritorian country that doubled down on censoring online communications), but no system I've tried out (Freenet, ZeroNet, I2P, Tor) grew on me. Too much, uh, weird stuff (or worse), while interesting content was pretty sparse. And I don't produce anything worthy of sharing myself. The tech could be there, but the society is not. [Not] surprisingly, the social demand seems to be all focused on to work around the Internet censorship with very limited interest in bootstrapping something that would be resistant. At scale, humans always pick the cheapest/lowest-effort option, even if it's obviously sub-optimal and even if it leads nowhere we want (or so I think) to be.

jc_sec 2y ago
This was my experience with matrix.org, mostly pedos and far right extremists or other weird anti social characters . Turned me off from these kinds of platforms big time.
- nemomarx 2y ago
  if every bar in town bans nazis or punks, even if the last bar has high minded ideals you kinda know which clientele they'll get
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - imtringued 2y ago
    I visited matrix.org once and I somehow only stumbled into the high minded clientele.
- 2y ago

EGreg 2y ago

I interviewed the founder of the original freenet and the current freenet, Ian Clarke (among others) on our channel about decentralized systems, might be interesting for the people here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWrRqUkJpMQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWrRqUkJpMQ It is on our channel https://youtube.com/Intercoin https://youtube.com/Intercoin where I tried for a few years to have really deep dives with some of the too people on technology, sociopolitics and regulations around decentralized systems.

tejtm 2y ago
On the mention "original freenet" In the late 1980s early 1990s, FreeNet was not (just) a web domain name. Freenet was decentralized idea of how the public (me) could get on the internet without already being a member of a privileged institution (or rich and sophisticated). I believe the idea of what the freenet was prior to becoming a brandname is worthy of being remembered. I'm not much of a tube clicker here, so apologies if this is redundant with the video.

Dwedit 2y ago

Did Freenet ever get over its "content moderation" problem? Don't want to summon the FBI.

immibis 2y ago
resisting censorship is fundamentally at odds with supporting censorship
sanity 2y ago
The new Freenet is more of a communication than a storage medium which makes content moderation less of an issue, but we're planning to build a decentralized reputation system based on the idea of "web of trust" that should do at least as good a job of protecting people from stuff they don't want to see as today's centralized services.
nixdev 2y ago
> Did HTTP over get over its "content moderation" problem? Don't want to summon the FBI.
- Dwedit 2y ago
  HTTP is not a protocol that automatically distributes content to participating nodes.

nanolith 2y ago

While Locutus is an improvement on the previous Hyphanet model, I'm still concerned about the caching model. In Hyphanet, data would be cached the more it was used, and peers connected over multiple hops. This had the potential to cause huge headaches as authorities began investigating issues such as CSAM, because their understanding of how caching and requests work did not match up with how it actually worked. While, certainly, one could build a subset darknet, all it takes is one bad peer to expose the whole darknet to prosecution. I played with Freenet when it first came out, but when I realized the implications of this -- which later turned out to be true -- I destroyed the hard drive I had been using to run Freenet, just in case. Locutus seems less aggressive about caching data, but it still does some caching. Without really digging into the documentation or source code, I'd still be nervous about running it.

immibis 2y ago
Under EU rules (Digital Services Act) I believe an automated cache is treated similarly to a pipe - you're no more responsible for holding content in your cache (especially if encrypted!) than a Tor node operator is for someone accessing it through Tor. German police did raid the home of a guy who ran a lot of Tor nodes. Authoritarians don't need any technical excuse to raid your home - they can just do it if they want to scare you away from these platforms, regardless of how they work.
- nanolith 2y ago
  Unfortunately, US case law is murkier. There have been some notable convictions of people using the old Freenet to search or host CSAM. However, the digital forensics used in these cases was pretty sketchy. If someone simply caching data from downstream queries were held to the same standard, they'd also be considered guilty. I have no doubt that there was other evidence that led to the conviction of these individuals. But, I can only go on what I know, and what I know is that the standard of digital forensics evidence in those cases was subpar.
sanity 2y ago
Locutus (now Freenet) is more of a communication than a storage medium. It's focused more on allowing people to build decentralized tools like group chat[1] for realtime communication than be a content distribution network like bittorrent. We're also planning a decentralized reputation system based on the concept of "web of trust" that should do at least as good a job of ensuring users aren't exposed to unwanted content like spam or worse. [1] https://github.com/freenet/river https://github.com/freenet/river

angelorue 2y ago

It seems interesting, I've seen this before, but i'm lost. How do I get it, does it incorporate with the OG internet or what?

sanity 2y ago
We haven't launched yet but we're very[1] close, hopefully just days away as we tie up loose ends. This[2] diagram hopefully gives a big-picture view of where Freenet fits in. You install the Freenet software (which is tiny, less than 10MB) and then you can access Freenet through your web browser just like with the world wide web. The difference is that there are no servers or datacenters, it's all decentralized. [1] https://freenet.org/news/weekly-dev-meeting-2024-10-11/ https://freenet.org/news/weekly-dev-meeting-2024-10-11/ [2] https://docs.freenet.org https://docs.freenet.org

okasaki 2y ago

Interesting that the new freenet is written in rust. I always thought the worst part of freenet was that it required java. I haven't used freenet in a long time. Last time I did I'm pretty sure satoshi was posting the og bitcoin releases on the message board (freechat?). Crazy times.

sanity 2y ago
Yeah, there was a decent argument for Java in the early 2000s before it was obvious that Java would fail to gain traction on the desktop. Rust was the obvious choice when I started work on the new Freenet in 2019.

wkyleg 2y ago

When I was ~14 I downloaded Freenet after finding it on Stumbleupon. After wondering why my laptop was loosing RAM for a few months, I realized I had been running a node continuously. Great to see it's still alive though.

SagelyGuru 2y ago

Leave the field to the censors, create an alternative, and hope that they will not pursue you? Or stand your ground and fight them wherever they are? That is the question.

CertumIter 2y ago
Let's do both, since one fosters the other.

stunpix 2y ago

It’s no longer funny to see how developers again and again are trying to fix problems of real world by creating digital hideouts because this is the only thing developers do the best - programming. Whenever we see a problem with banks, governments, corporations, we immediately try to fix the problem with “own digital alternative”. But hiding from the real problem in a new network doesn’t fix remaining initial problem for the rest of the world. Complex socio-economic problems shall be fixed with socio-economical instruments. No new network could solve problems of monopolies and profit-greedy corporations.

sanity 2y ago
It's a technical solution to a technical problem, that problem being the client-server architecture which inherently centralizes control and disempowers users. The Internet started out peer-to-peer, but client-server became dominant during the 90s when the Internet became mainstream - because at the time it was the only option for building services that scaled. Freenet provides an alternative to the client-server architecture that doesn't require compromising on user experience or scalability.
x-complexity 2y ago
> Complex socio-economic problems shall be fixed with socio-economical instruments. Missing the forest for the trees. The socio-economic problems are caused by the limitations & drawbacks of modern tech: It's too easy to centralize control over a platform, whilst keeping things decentralized requires an upfront desire to do so, along with the nightmare that is backwards compatibility. > No new network could solve problems of monopolies and profit-greedy corporations. It is a solvable problem. Monopolies & rent-seeking behaviors happen because the tech involved has chokepoints that favor centralized entities. We know the business processes that should happen for running service X, based on our daily interactions with them and the idealized form of how they should work. Breaking the processes down into components & putting them onto a decentralized compute platform would significantly relax their control over common chokepoints. Dispute processes would be made as public as current government processes, ideally Estonian-like.
- 2y ago

brunoqc 2y ago

It's taking a while for the new version to come out. It has been "weeks away" for like a year now.

sanity 2y ago
That's fair, in December last year we realized that we'd need to implement our own transport layer after discovering that the off-the-shelf library we planned to use wasn't flexible enough for our needs. But the new transport layer is done, unit tests pass, simulations are working, and we're now cleaning up loose ends so this time I think we really are days or weeks away.
- brunoqc 2y ago
  Glad to hear that progress is being made. I can't wait to try it. Thanks!

johnea 2y ago

That's pretty funny 8-) Their declaring their freedom and independance in a Matrix chat channel 8-) This reminds me of the recent Guardian article headlined: "Americans who believe in democracy have no choice but to vote for Harris" https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/26/vote-kamala-harris-observer-editorial https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/26/vote-k... How can it be democracy if there's only one choice?

sanity 2y ago
We're working on a decentralized group chat app for Freenet called River[1]. We'll migrate our channel from Matrix to River once it's working reliably. [1] https://github.com/freenet/river/ https://github.com/freenet/river/
- Arathorn 2y ago
  in terms of namespace collisions, beware https://www.river.build https://www.river.build is already a thing
  - sanity 2y ago
    Noted. It's true that there are a few projects using the name River - which is unsurprising for such a common word, but nothing with significant traction so far as I'm aware.

vfclists 2y ago

First step in checking out Freenet - Click on link to see some video about Freenet - https://freenet.org/news/ghost-keys-ian-interview/ https://freenet.org/news/ghost-keys-ian-interview/ Google video saying "Sign in to prove that you are not a bot" Ian? Freenet? Really? Am I a joke to you? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GbE3OkwWwAA25N_?format=jpg&name=small https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GbE3OkwWwAA25N_?format=jpg&name=...

sanity 2y ago
Look under the video and you'll find links to the same video on Rumble and X, take your pick.

ceving 2y ago

If it is a distributed computer: how to prevent crypto mining?

sanity 2y ago
Good question - computationally expensive contracts will be removed automatically as part of a mechanism that keeps track of cost/benefit to the peer for each contract.