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Touchscreens are how electric cars are simpler and cheaper. Buttons, knobs, their wirings and linkages are surprisingly expensive once you include fully load
by bryanlarsen 2y ago
Touchscreens are how electric cars are simpler and cheaper. Buttons, knobs, their wirings and linkages are surprisingly expensive once you include fully load the cost (ie, wiring is often done by hand).
> Imagine the Chinese electric cars are similar to this but the article is lacking much detail.
No, Chinese cars are usually loaded with gimmicks. Even the $10,000 Dolphin has two screens.
> This would be much more effective than electric heating and likely generate less carbon emissions
Even more efficient is to utilize the waste heat from motors, as a proper heat pump system does.
What really kills the range of an EV in the winter is bringing the battery & cabin up to temperature at the beginning. Once the car is moving, the heat pump can scavenge heat from the motor to relatively efficiently heat things. So if you pre-warm your car while it's plugged in the range loss isn't too bad.
Diesel heat would prevent you from doing this because you can't run a diesel heater in the garage. So ironically, a diesel heater could reduce your battery's range even though it doesn't use battery power.
- neuroelectron 2y agoThat's a good point but I can't understand how it would add up vs servos or other electric air controls vs a manual lever that physically opens the baffle. It really doesn't make sense to me how an lcd can be less expensive than a bit of metal and plastic in a switch but I suppose you're right due to economies of scale.
- AlotOfReading 2y agoThe cost of the vehicle components is a surprisingly small part of the overall cost of a vehicle. The cost of the line time and the additional tolerances to fit those cheaper components is vastly higher than the cost of stuff they're going to install anyway. Being able to separate design decision timelines on how the UI works from manufacturing timelines is also very helpful organizationally.
- vasco 2y agoI think these are the right answers. LCDs are already wired and don't need someone's hands to do it. And you can, in software, however late you want in the process, add a button for this or remove a button for that. In software development this is a given, but in real world manufacturing it's like a super power.
- _ea1k 2y agoThe touch aspect itself is really cheap. The big benefit of screens over "simpler" instruments is that regulations actually vary quite a bit across the world. Being able to use a screen that can display anything greatly reduces the sku count, simplifying supply chains and assembly lines. It would be hard to justify not using a screen these days, IMO.
- tdeck 2y ago> It would be hard to justify not using a screen these days, IMO. Unless you were concerned about the safety of someone having to look at a screen to operate vehicle controls. Otherwise you could just make it a smartphone app and ditch the screen entirely.
- blacksmith_tb 2y agoThat would be atrocious (but not really much worse than the all-in-one infotainment screens we already have...) But my gut says automakers haven't gone there because it would make support and liability that much more complicated - "the operator was distracted at the time of the collision... but they weren't trying to turn on the defroster, they were watching Youtube!" On the plus side instead of being stuck with a never-upgraded head unit, with an orphaned 3G modem, you'd at least have connectivity that kept working.
- _ea1k 2y agoI should have been more clear. I meant the gauge cluster. TBH, having physical controls for things like climate, wipers, and lights makes sense. I can't imagine the cost difference is meaningful.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- numpad0 2y agoI doubt if it's actually cheap. "The touchscreen" aka 2DIN radio/infotainment head unit slot, is required for Japanese market, as Japanese users require one of indigenous options installed for all cars. Google Maps supposedly had gotten better but aren't quite replacing it, so CP/AA doesn't work. I believe this is a unique country requirement, as many Chinese EVs as well as many European low-end cars seem to ignore it. Not every cars are made for Japanese, far from it, but abolition of LCD based map-radio on a standardized slot is a weird hill to die on, so every cars has it anyway. And, I think, this is where the actual "it's cheaper to..." argument begins: since every cars will have the standard issue map-radio, it _can be cheaper to move buttons into it_. Differences between the standard version and one with this context is whether the cost of the entire 2DIN screen is included in it or not - if the screen cannot be removed, to shut up whining Japanese or not, it becomes sunk cost and becomes a constant term of equation, which physical buttons have no chance of winning.
- XorNot 2y agoTry pricing out physical switches at your local electronics shop sometime. How much does say, 20 or 30 of them cost? How much a 7" touch-screen LCD cost? Then consider how long it takes to wire up and install the LCD versus 20-30 switches (plus mounting brackets, plus functional testing etc.)
- sbdhzjd 2y agoRegulation forces the manufacturers to have the LCD in the car because rear view cameras are mandatory. Right off the bat all radio controls are free if tossed into the software.
- potato3732842 2y agoThen why don't all the 3rd world cars use touchscreens?
- sn0wf1re 2y agoTouchscreens are more expensive than buttons and knobs. But screens are required by law in the USA and EU as they require backup cameras. And a digitizer is a lot cheaper than some buttons and knobs.
- Panzer04 2y agoI'm confused. Are they more or less expensive? My presumption is you meant cheaper?
- sn0wf1re 2y agoScreens are more expensive than buttons and knobs. Making the screen into a touch screen with a digitizer is cheaper than buttons and knobs. So if you already have a screen, making it a touchscreen is indeed cheaper.
- AnotherGoodName 2y agoThey aren’t more expensive to start with though. A small touchscreen is <$10 in large orders. This is why you can buy entire android phones for <usd$30 with no vendor lock-in. Wiring in a set of buttons and knobs costs more than a small screen. The buttons and knobs are more ergonomic. The real answer to the above question is that it’s happening already. All new cheap Chinese (or anywhere else that caters to the developing world) made cars have a touch screen and fewer hardwired controls.
- stavros 2y agoHe means that you already have a screen, and you might as well put a digitizer on it and save the cost of the buttons.
- LunicLynx 2y ago
- torginus 2y agoI think the importance of heatpumps is overblown. If you go for a highway trip, your car consumes 10kW+ and 1kW heating won't matter much. Additionally, on longer trips the cabin's already warm, no need to run the heater that much.
- pavon 2y agoAs an owner of a EV, who regularly sees over 20% of the energy used during the winter goes to heating the cabin, I can't agree.
- dzhiurgis 2y agoKinda. Im leqd to believe heatpump is a $50 device that manufacturers charge $2k for (must be more to it honestly). If that saves 10% of range that’s 10% less batteries which cost more than $50. Eventually all these savings add up so much that EV is lighter and cheaper than similar ICE vehicle…
- KK7NIL 2y ago> Im leqd to believe heatpump is a $50 device that manufacturers charge $2k for (must be more to it honestly). Turning an AC unit into a heatpump is indeed pretty simple, but that type of heatpump doesn't work well when the temperature gradient is too high. What you'd need to heat a car during winter is a "high temperature heat pump", which usually requires multiple stages, different thermal fluids, etc. That's a much more complex and expensive system, not well suited to vehicles.
- dzhiurgis 2y agoAFAIK in cold climates they use different refrigerant like methane, but that’s even more expensive.
- Dylan16807 2y agoExpensive why? Methane itself is dirt cheap.
- ClassyJacket 2y agoWhere on Earth is a Dolphin only 10,000$ ?
- segasaturn 2y agoProbably mixed up with the BYD Seagull which is indeed USD$10,000 (before tariffs).
- saagarjha 2y agoThe ocean maybe
- Groxx 2y agoI'm under the impression that electric diesel pre-warmers are relatively common, in cold climates? (Or engine block heaters, basically a fancy electric blanket at cheapest) Every diesel person I knew growing up had one, partly because they needed it when it got truly cold. For the mid-cold regions though, yeah - I can believe that.
- fy20 2y agoIn cold climates in Europe, diesel pre-heaters (such as Webasto) are pretty common. Compared to petrol, diesel cars have a harder time starting at low temperatures, and take a long time to warm up. Where I live (-25c during winter) houses typically don't have garages where cars are kept. Modern apartments have underground parking, but the temperature often stays above freezing.
- dangrossman 2y agoCoincidentally, Webasto supplies the home EV charging equipment for many of the major brands including VW, Ford, GM.
- seanmcdirmid 2y agoNesr the arctic electric block heaters are common. Almost every parking lot in Fairbanks has power outlets at each spot for block heaters.
- singleshot_ 2y agoI have this thing called a “furnace” that heats my home using no. 2 home heating oil (more or less: diesel). How is a diesel heater different than my furnace? Why can’t you run one in your garage?
- resoluteteeth 2y agoYour furnace has a chimney going to the roof. If the diesel heater was part of the car that presumably wouldn't be possible, so you wouldn't be able to use it in a garage.
- singleshot_ 2y agoGot it. Thank you kindly. Wasn't thinking of it that way.
- CMCDragonkai 2y agoWe are now in an era where physical things are expensive. Making a physical knob that actuates things requires machine tools, skilled labour and standardised parts. Compared to a digital widget which eventually can just be coded by an LLM, we are never going back to physical controls unless safety demands it.
- brokenmachine 2y ago>unless safety demands it Interesting that the market is so held hostage that you didn't even think to mention that the market could demand it. Do people actually prefer touch screens? I know I don't. I won't buy a car unless every function I need while driving is on a physical knob or button. If I have to press on a touch screen every time I start the car, this test drive is over.