4 ms·

What is there to expose? Basically every company would probably like that, if a company doesn’t sign up, it’s not because they are too moral but because they th

What is there to expose? Basically every company would probably like that, if a company doesn’t sign up, it’s not because they are too moral but because they think the public perception of them will take a hit.

dylan604 2y ago
Who knows what evidence will finally get someone to get off the fence, so the more evidence of whatever type and especially own goals like this are welcome
marcosdumay 2y ago
If a company doesn't do that, or does but wants to stop, it will be in favor of the regulation and against that suit. That is for whatever reason they have for not wanting to do it. Except, maybe for not doing it for publicity reasons and exploiting that fact with a large campaign.
xp84 2y ago
> Basically every company would probably like that No, only the ones who suck. I don't mean this in a jokey way. If I'm UpstartISP, Inc. and I believe that my product is actually better than Comcast offers, I want people to be able to cancel services without being jerked around, waiting on hold, and hassled, so that they can sign up with me. It's only companies that know they suck, and that their whole business is full of scams and deception, that want this. Yes, that's entire major industries, such as the "home security" lobbying group and cablecos mentioned in the article. As well as gym memberships.
- ryandrake 2y ago
  > No, only the ones who suck. I don't mean this in a jokey way. If I'm UpstartISP, Inc. and I believe that my product is actually better than Comcast offers, I want people to be able to cancel services without being jerked around, waiting on hold, and hassled, so that they can sign up with me. Sooner or later, some SeniorLeader inside UpstartISP, whose bonus is driven by profit or loss, will do the math and note that making it harder to cancel will cause quarterly profits to increase by 0.N%, and then the company will surely make the change. The tendency for all companies to profit-maximize guarantees it.
  - xp84 2y ago
    I think I basically agree with you on that part. I'd propose an axiom: "All companies tend over time toward increasing levels of cynical rent-seeking behavior in place of innovation or competition." Which is why they should be restricted from engaging in any easily-definable instances of that behavior (ideally by actual legislation instead of this silly executive branch stuff). Banning the mature, craven companies from building moats of anticompetitive, anti-consumer behavior is a way to help the next generation of new entrants to either kill them or to force them to compete, either of which is a win for consumers and better startups trying to dethrone them.
  - JoshTriplett 2y ago
    > Sooner or later, some SeniorLeader inside UpstartISP, whose bonus is driven by profit or loss, will do the math and note that making it harder to cancel will cause quarterly profits to increase by 0.N%, Companies need people empowered to say "that will probably increase short-term profits, and damage our reputation in the long term, so no, we're not doing it; we're in this for the long haul".
- sitkack 2y ago
  I am more likely to sign up for something I can cancel. Also, if I can trial it and it doesn't work, I can leave. If it sucks and I can't leave I am going to be horribly pissed. A really good example is https://www.verizon.com/plans/free-trial/ https://www.verizon.com/plans/free-trial/ I was testing between verizon and mint for my physical location. For whatever reason, VZ was underperforming, so when the trial expired, I left a happy temporary customer. I have since recommended it to others, knowing that they aren't going to get locked in. Being able to cancel actually make more happy customers, not less. It is only the enshitified mba run companies that trap customers that exhibit the parasitic practice of trapping customers into long contracts, confusing bills and impossible to cancel w/o burning your payment account number. I actually would sign up for the local gym that just went under in my neighborhood, but I knew I would never be able to cancel, so I skipped it.
  - photonthug 2y ago
    Verizon has a different strategy for this type of thing but is still in the 'enshitified mba-run companies' category. Charge like $400 for a 5g internet device that's worth like $12 and built on OSS anyway (+ probably charge it again if the device isn't returned). Device only has only a power-button and is designed to be preconfigured, but isn't, so that they can make the customer call and navigate 6+ hours of tech support. This is so frustrating that it might easily take a month to do it if you want to keep your sanity.. which means they can bill an extra month providing no service at all, and if you were counting on a trial period it's probably over. The trial cancelation might be easy, but really, that matters most when there's actually significant competition among providers. In the end it's service that's easily twice as expensive and half as good as what most of the civilized world enjoys. There's what, like 10k hours in a year, half a million hours in a lifetime? So rather than "make it easy to cancel" laws what we really need is some general recognition of the fact that deliberately stealing 1 hour of time from half a million people is roughly equivalent to murdering 1 person. Everyone knows that class actions for a $2 dollar check are a joke. If your business is practically essential so that you're basically guaranteed customers, and your business practices deliberately add friction that cost people time+money, then you're guilty of violence as well as theft.

dylan604 2y ago

Who knows what evidence will finally get someone to get off the fence, so the more evidence of whatever type and especially own goals like this are welcome

marcosdumay 2y ago

If a company doesn't do that, or does but wants to stop, it will be in favor of the regulation and against that suit. That is for whatever reason they have for not wanting to do it. Except, maybe for not doing it for publicity reasons and exploiting that fact with a large campaign.

xp84 2y ago

> Basically every company would probably like that No, only the ones who suck. I don't mean this in a jokey way. If I'm UpstartISP, Inc. and I believe that my product is actually better than Comcast offers, I want people to be able to cancel services without being jerked around, waiting on hold, and hassled, so that they can sign up with me. It's only companies that know they suck, and that their whole business is full of scams and deception, that want this. Yes, that's entire major industries, such as the "home security" lobbying group and cablecos mentioned in the article. As well as gym memberships.

ryandrake 2y ago
> No, only the ones who suck. I don't mean this in a jokey way. If I'm UpstartISP, Inc. and I believe that my product is actually better than Comcast offers, I want people to be able to cancel services without being jerked around, waiting on hold, and hassled, so that they can sign up with me. Sooner or later, some SeniorLeader inside UpstartISP, whose bonus is driven by profit or loss, will do the math and note that making it harder to cancel will cause quarterly profits to increase by 0.N%, and then the company will surely make the change. The tendency for all companies to profit-maximize guarantees it.
- xp84 2y ago
  I think I basically agree with you on that part. I'd propose an axiom: "All companies tend over time toward increasing levels of cynical rent-seeking behavior in place of innovation or competition." Which is why they should be restricted from engaging in any easily-definable instances of that behavior (ideally by actual legislation instead of this silly executive branch stuff). Banning the mature, craven companies from building moats of anticompetitive, anti-consumer behavior is a way to help the next generation of new entrants to either kill them or to force them to compete, either of which is a win for consumers and better startups trying to dethrone them.
- JoshTriplett 2y ago
  > Sooner or later, some SeniorLeader inside UpstartISP, whose bonus is driven by profit or loss, will do the math and note that making it harder to cancel will cause quarterly profits to increase by 0.N%, Companies need people empowered to say "that will probably increase short-term profits, and damage our reputation in the long term, so no, we're not doing it; we're in this for the long haul".
sitkack 2y ago
I am more likely to sign up for something I can cancel. Also, if I can trial it and it doesn't work, I can leave. If it sucks and I can't leave I am going to be horribly pissed. A really good example is https://www.verizon.com/plans/free-trial/ https://www.verizon.com/plans/free-trial/ I was testing between verizon and mint for my physical location. For whatever reason, VZ was underperforming, so when the trial expired, I left a happy temporary customer. I have since recommended it to others, knowing that they aren't going to get locked in. Being able to cancel actually make more happy customers, not less. It is only the enshitified mba run companies that trap customers that exhibit the parasitic practice of trapping customers into long contracts, confusing bills and impossible to cancel w/o burning your payment account number. I actually would sign up for the local gym that just went under in my neighborhood, but I knew I would never be able to cancel, so I skipped it.
- photonthug 2y ago
  Verizon has a different strategy for this type of thing but is still in the 'enshitified mba-run companies' category. Charge like $400 for a 5g internet device that's worth like $12 and built on OSS anyway (+ probably charge it again if the device isn't returned). Device only has only a power-button and is designed to be preconfigured, but isn't, so that they can make the customer call and navigate 6+ hours of tech support. This is so frustrating that it might easily take a month to do it if you want to keep your sanity.. which means they can bill an extra month providing no service at all, and if you were counting on a trial period it's probably over. The trial cancelation might be easy, but really, that matters most when there's actually significant competition among providers. In the end it's service that's easily twice as expensive and half as good as what most of the civilized world enjoys. There's what, like 10k hours in a year, half a million hours in a lifetime? So rather than "make it easy to cancel" laws what we really need is some general recognition of the fact that deliberately stealing 1 hour of time from half a million people is roughly equivalent to murdering 1 person. Everyone knows that class actions for a $2 dollar check are a joke. If your business is practically essential so that you're basically guaranteed customers, and your business practices deliberately add friction that cost people time+money, then you're guilty of violence as well as theft.