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The Forest Service Is Losing 2,400 Jobs–Including Most of Its Trail Workers
- user3939382 2y agoOne of the few things I actually want the government doing. We have weapons to give to foreign countries though.
- JackYoustra 2y agoI don't think you can use tanks, missiles, shells, and drones to clean trails
- FredPret 2y agoAt least, you really shouldn’t
- javajosh 2y agoYou could certainly use military drones to map out trails and mark sections for cleaning. Beating milspec drones into plowdrones, etc.
- defrost 2y agoSure. Although it's literally cheaper to use a crop duster with LIDAR mounted, civilian hand held drones, etc. We (an air geophysics crowd I worked with) used to take contracts to map vegetation height and density under power lines in Australian bush.
- ceejayoz 2y agoChallenge accepted. (Hilariously, the USFS does use artillery. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Forest_Service#/media/File:106mm_Recoilless_Rifle.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Forest_Service#/...)
- JackYoustra 2y agolmao ok maybe we should keep a few shells for avalanche stuff
- jandrewrogers 2y agoThey literally use tanks to keep avalanches off roads. Here is a video near Seattle of the Dept of Transportation using a couple M-60 Sherman tanks to launch artillery into the snowpack in an effort to control avalanches along the Highway 2 corridor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZLfboCceGA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZLfboCceGA
- fallingsquirrel 2y agoInteresting fact, but is it really necessary to go to those lengths? Surely something like a handgun or detonated explosive would be cheaper and just as effective (though less fun). I don't think this use case needs the vehicle to be armored.
- ceejayoz 2y agoHandguns don't have the range or power. Explosives are used, but you have to get them up there, which means either schleping up the mountain or using a helicopter, which is wildly more expensive. Artillery works great.
- rpeden 2y agoAlaska recently starting experimenting with using drones to drop explosives on snowpacks, so that's another relatively cost-effective option.
- jandrewrogers 2y agoA pistol would be hilariously inadequate. As for "detonating explosives", what do you think they are doing? They are shooting high-explosive artillery rounds from a tank that detonate on impact. As for "why artillery", how do you plan on getting explosives into the snowpack, especially under conditions of severe avalanche risk? Those areas of the mountains are inaccessible by vehicle even in the summertime. A tank can drive on a road and deliver the explosives where needed. They often target 20+ separate snowfields so being able to do it in a timely and efficient manner matters. While the armor doesn't contribute much, it happens to be what the artillery gun is attached to. It would cost far more to rig some special-purpose vehicle. Sherman tanks are free, the government has loads of them lying around waiting to be scrapped, you just pay for fuel and upkeep.
- iancmceachern 2y agoYou can use the Army Corps of Engineers....
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- anonzzzies 2y agoThis is a drop in the bucket compared to military spending; apparently no one cares?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- slantedview 2y agoIn a political system shaped by lobbyists, those without lobbyists go without.
- MrLeap 2y agoStartup idea: like reddit, but upvoting costs money and all the posts are tickets for paid staff lobbyists. Trust/transparency would be the tricky problems.
- tptacek 2y agoNon-defense US federal spending dwarfs defense spending, for whatever it's worth. The US is essentially a benefits management firm with a standing army.
- iancmceachern 2y agoI dont know how we can know this. My understanding is that the pentagon has an unknown total budget. Once you wrap up all the CIA, NSA type stuff too I'm not sure how we can know this?
- tptacek 2y agoThe DoD has a "black budget", but that's money you don't get a breakdown of, not money you don't know about: it's voted in by Congress as a blind total. Total spending is profoundly tilted towards non-defense spending (even more so if you include state and local government spending, but that's not germane to the Forest Service) --- the amount of "secret" money going to defense, if it existed, would have to be economy-breaking to alter the balance.
- nerdponx 2y agoAs I understand it, Ukraine is mostly getting old outdated equipment, and Israel is actually buying weapons, not just receiving them as gifts.
- jrochkind1 2y agoThe US normally gives Israel around $3 billion dollars a year to buy our weapons -- they are in fact required to spend it on buying weapons from US defense industry. It's kind of an, um, gift certificate. This year they gave Israel $18 billion, so much more than usual. In one sense, all of this is actually a jobs program for the US defense industry, since all that money is required to turn around as weapons purchases from US companies. Even $18 billion is less than 1% of the US non-military budget, this isn't the reason we "can't afford" the USFS, or the reason to stop giving weapons to Israel -- the US certainly can afford both. (The reason to stop supplying Israel is that those weapons are actually destabilizing the region and encouraging violence and gross human rights violations). But, no, Israel "buys" US weapons with US money, they are indeed a gift. https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/papers/2024/USspendingIsrael https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/papers/2024/USspendingIs...
- nerdponx 2y agoGood to know and thanks for that link. I am curious why this was downvoted, is that not a trustworthy resource?
- ImPostingOnHN 2y agoIt's not downvoted.
- jrochkind1 2y agoIt prob got initially downvoted and then later up-voted just cause it's so political, and i mentioned my personal support for ending US weapons supply to Israel, and people vote based on their political agreement or disagreement with sentiments, explicit or implied, but here I was explicit.
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- bearjaws 2y agoWe can spend money on both, but we have one party making up issues to be outraged about.
- willcipriano 2y agoThere is more than two things to spend money on.
- MiguelX413 2y agoLike both.
- willcipriano 2y agoSocialized medicine for Israel, nothing for Americans. A bold plan. Let's see how the American people feel about this in 12 days.
- MiguelX413 2y agoNobody said that.
- willcipriano 2y agoActions speak louder than words.
- speakfreely 2y agoIt's not clear which party you think is doing this because both of them do it so frequently.
- intended 2y agoHave to say, there’s no more apt moment to point that this is missing the forest for trees.
- renewiltord 2y agoDamn, we should send the USFS HIMARS. I bet that will help.
- bflesch 2y agoThat's a stupid pro-russian propaganda talking point. Try harder.
- potato3732842 2y agoHow do you know he's not talking about Isreal? Or about whichever side of the dumpster fire in Yemen that the CIA is undoubtably helping out? We absolutely play world police way more than we ought to for our own good.
- dgfitz 2y ago> In response to a shrinking budget, the land management agency is suspending seasonal hiring next year. Public lands will bear the cost. These aren’t careers.
- idiotsecant 2y agoWhat are you saying? These are vital positions. I'm not sure what it matters to the discussion if they are 'career' or not?
- mgerdts 2y agoIt’s probably related to this: > “I moved across the country to work here, for a seasonal job,” she says. “We have people who have worked here for 10 years as seasonals, and made a career out of these positions. They trusted that the jobs wouldn’t go away.” I suspect the other part of these careers involve seasonal work that covers a different part of the year, such as working at ski resorts.
- milesward 2y agoThey should be!
- plasmatix 2y agoAnd now they aren't even jobs.
- coding123 2y agoDon't worry they'll hire migrants after a while when people forget this story.
- JackYoustra 2y agoBetter migrants than no one?
- samschooler 2y agoOften the US hires young Americans to do these jobs. It is huge for helping young people with job training and class mobility. Without these jobs it will be that much harder to find a job with no experience in the outdoor industry.
- milesward 2y agoThat's crap. We need more access to nature, not less.
- tonymet 2y agoCan anyone explain the mission of USFS? Why does the US maintain a bunch of wilderness when it’s buried in debt. Why not use federal assets to generate income instead of burdening taxpayers with taxes & debt payments?
- a_t48 2y agoThis is in the article.
- paulcole 2y agoI see a lot of things that the Forest Service does listed but I don’t see the purpose of why they do them. For example, this quote is not a mission, “The U.S. Forest Service is a federal agency that manages 193 million acres of land, an area about the size of Texas.” It might be part of what they do to accomplish their mission, but it’s not a mission. Could you quote the part of the article that makes their mission clear?
- janosett 2y agoThe budget for this has very little bearing on the debt. See where the money actually goes here: https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/federal-spending/ https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/feder...
- readthenotes1 2y ago"The U.S. government has spent $6.75 trillion in fiscal year 2024 to ensure the well-being of the people of the United States." Reads like something straight out of George Orwell
- ceejayoz 2y agoOnly if you don't know Orwell was an lifelong socialist.
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- smoovb 2y ago> Even with these sobering financial details, it’s clear that the agency’s decision to balance the books by cutting seasonal jobs came as a shock to many employees. Time for this to stop being a shock. The country needs some harsh belt tightening and stories like these will become commonplace if real reform is practiced.
- readthenotes1 2y agoAre you from Argentina??
- roamerz 2y agoI wonder why a truthful statement like that is being downvoted? I could eat steak at a lavish restaurant every night but I realize that if I did so my credit card balance would eventually come to the point I would be using the total of my income to pay the interest. Instead I do the sustainable option and buy groceries and cook at home. Continuing deficit spending at the federal level will eventually bankrupt our government and make this a worse world to live in.
- ImPostingOnHN 2y agoThis would be like eating steak at a lavish restaurant every night (defense spending), and someone else (USFS) eats a spoonful of beans, and then you saying 'we need some belt-tightening'. We don't, you do. The USFS is already working with a tightened belt.
- mindslight 2y agoIt's not even that. It's more like eating at a lavish restaurant every night, and paying with pieces of paper that you just printed your picture on. Eventually that game might indeed end, but it has much more to do with other factors than basic arithmetic. Talk about deficit spending is basically nonsense from the vein of fake austerity politics of the past several decades, whose real purpose was to starve most government functionality while distracting from the many trillions of dollars given out as artificially low interest loans, basically shameless handouts to the financial industry and asset holders (see: the everything bubble).
- kbos87 2y agoWhat portion of the national budget that is devoted to spaceflight would it take to shower the USFS in riches? I'd much rather see it going to the latter.
- ceejayoz 2y agoUSFS received $9.23B in 2024. https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF12396/3 https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF12396/3 NASA's is about $25B. Bigger, but both are pretty small in the overall Federal budget.
- MaKey 2y agoSpaceflight is arguably one of the better uses of public funds, so I'm curious why you picked exactly this topic.
- nerdponx 2y agoBecause currently the manned spaceflight component of NASA is more like a jobs program than a useful contributor to science and space exploration.
- llamaimperative 2y agoHow exactly is it useful? Seems to be only rather fringe science experiments going on (neat, of course!) and vague pre-work for going multiplanetary, which IMO is not a super compelling idea upon inspection. Honest curiosity here, I don't know what a lot of the purpose is!
- shkkmo 2y agoOur pursuit of space travel has lead to an incredible number of innovations that are used accross almost every industry in this country. The use of orbital based technologies like GPS and satellite imaging have unlocked entirely new capabilities. It's hard to find an aspect of modern life that hasn't been transformed in some way by space. Dollar for dollar, the only better return on our federal spending is education.
- efitz 2y ago[flagged]
- jauntywundrkind 2y ago> The only exception to the hiring freeze are the roughly 11,300 firefighters hired by the agency every year. You probably wouldn't need first responders if you could hire & not fire all the people you have proactively managing your lands. (So many face-palms.)
- blinded 2y agoThat sucks. Its tough work, if you live near any of these trails and frequent them they have volunteer days which are totally worth doing. It practically means trails won't get the love they deserve and it will be harder to make use of the resource.
- embedded_hiker 2y agoThere are volunteer groups that do a large percentage of the trail maintenance in some areas. There is the Pacific Crest Trail Association with their local chapters. In Washington state, there is the Washington Trails association. In Oregon, there is Trailkeepers of Oregon, who I volunteer with almost every weekend. There are also numerous local groups across the western US.
- blinded 2y agoYep! 10/10 would recommend.
- cc101 2y agoI'm a camp host for a USFS campground. It takes 3+ seasonal employees to clean the bathrooms, remove the trash, monitor the chlorine content of the drinking water and repair things. Together they maintain a dozen or so campgrounds. As a camp host I occasionally do these tasks when these employees are absent as well as my usual duties. For this I theoretically receive a small stipend. I say theoretically because the payroll operation is so understaffed it is five months behind in paying me. Without the seasonal staff, I don't see any way the USFS can keep the campgrounds open as well as do many other functions. I don't think many Americans understand how 40 years or so of declining agency budgets have hollowed out the staffing of many government agencies.
- bongodongobob 2y ago[flagged]
- bearjaws 2y agoDon't worry, soon we will outsource these services to private companies for 5x the price, but then the budget will get approved due to lobbying! Then we will ask why we even have the government owning parks in the first place, and privatize the national parks! You will pay $500 to park and you will like it!
- jonnycoder 2y agoI say convert it all to dispersed camping. Leave the zoos, I mean national parks, to the common overcrowding. Let us have our forests back. It’s obvious that their policies have led to many of it burning down in mega fires that get so hot it kills every living thing in its path.
- desert_rue 2y agoAh, yes, make it harder for people to enjoy and admire nature. Then people will lobby to raze it down as “no one uses it anyway.”
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- tacotruck 2y agoMost of these crews were already short handed and in districts relying extensively on labor from youth conservation corps and private contractors. The private trail building sector has exploded in the last decade or so. More often than not the USFS (and other agencies with some variability) trail crews will work on high profile projects or simply as liaisons/project managers for the private outfits. Even though the work is often just scratching at dirt, building /maintaining trails and the structures they rely on is technical trades work and needs a local culture to maintain standards. Funding solutions should look towards the outdoor recreation industry and cutting fat in bloated non-profit admin. They benefit from selling the lifestyle and all its accessories while contributing relatively little to resource maintenance.
- wumeow 2y agoFor those who are disappointed in this, don't blame Ukraine or defense spending, blame Republicans. The Forest Service budget is set by the Interior, Environment, and Related Agencies subcommittee which is majority Republican. Their press release on the FY25 bill is here: https://appropriations.house.gov/news/press-releases/house-votes-unleash-american-production-lower-energy-costs https://appropriations.house.gov/news/press-releases/house-v... If you don't believe they're partisan, read through the "key takeaways" section. They are responsible for this budget shortfall. Their games of government shutdown chicken are also the reason the budget hasn't even been finalized yet.
- trowflahbung 2y agoBlame both Democrats and Republicans. There is more than enough money to go around in this nation, but they’re all too busy sending it abroad whether direct spending, frivolous military deployments, or subsidizing our own defense industry. The whole system is rotten and corrupt.
- 0xdde 2y agoI'm not following your argument. Even if there were less spending on these other items, there is no indication Republicans would support any more funds for the Forest Service.
- ddingus 2y agoThis is not OK. We pay more than enough to fund the Forest Service. And I live the Forest Service. They make my life better and I value that very highly. I do not want private companies polluting our rec lands like they have done damn near everywhere else.
- karaterobot 2y agoThis article from a backpacking website is better written and reported than most major newspaper stories I read. Good quotes, and even edited. Probably fact checked too! Kudos.
- nerdile 2y agoI would like to share this link with my outdoorsy friends, but the inability to opt out of cookies triggers my morals. Dark pattern: "To opt out, click the link in the footer that you can't reach because this popup blocks it until you accept all the cookies"
- 93po 2y agoublock origin with annoyance filters
- greenie_beans 2y agoweird dogma hill to die on
- caseyy 2y ago1. Cut fire service funding and jobs 2. Cut forest service funding and jobs 3. “The forest fires are so bad this year, how could this have happened to us??”
- coolhand2120 2y agoCrazy how the money printer only works on some projects.
- whoitwas 2y agoPeople are not getting any smarter. Let's spend slightly less on "defense" and reinvigorate initiatives like the Forest Service and CCC!
- iamleppert 2y agoOne potential alternative that springs to mind is to repurpose these lands for use with AI datacenters and power generation for AI applications. Locate an AI data center in these forested regions, that could help pay for the workers needed to maintain the land. Tesla Optimus robots could be made to do the jobs of at least 2-3 of these forest workers, and could be shut down and stored when not in use. This will eliminate the significant expense of having to seasonally offload workers, as it really changes it to be more of a storage vs. labor problem.
- azemetre 2y agoI’m not comfortable with the government giving more corporate welfare to some of the richest companies in humanity. Also really not comfortable with giving more welfare to a single individuals company that routinely breaks the law and brags about firing unionized workers.