5 ms·

TSMC told US of chip in Huawei product after TechInsights finding, source says

90 points by mikhael 2y ago

m3kw9 2y ago
I’m sure there is some unscrubbable serial number to at least trace the first, second merchant
- iphoneisbetter 2y ago
  [dead]
- j_walter 2y ago
  There is no serial number on the individual die, but TSMC has very unique test lines on the chip that would easily identify if it was in fact made at TSMC.
  - 0xTJ 2y ago
    Is it indicated somewhere in this article, or somewhere else, that the dies are not programmed with a unique serial while still as part of a whole wafer?
    - j_walter 2y ago
      No, but any programming that would occur with identifiable information would occur after the wafer is cut and packaged. Generally this would be after delivery to TSMC's customer.
      - 0xTJ 2y ago
        There isn't any indication here one way or the other, but some the unique IDs of some devices (Microchip unique MAC chips) are documented as being programmed as a wafer, before being diced (as justification for them not being in serial order on a reel, that they may be shuffled from wafer to packaging).
    - wiml 2y ago
      By default I'd assume most chips don't get serialized (their package may have a date/lot code). The article doesn't say what the chip is, so I don't think there's a reason to think that it's one of the types of chip that does usually get a unique ID.
    - londons_explore 2y ago
      I don't have insider knowledge... But I could believe that there is no per-die serial number unless the customer wants one. It would be extra manufacturing steps, and require integration with the customers design. Due to the way lithography works, it isn't easy to make each die different. The usual way to put serial numbers into chips is with efuses, but not all chips have any efuses at all, and it would require collaboration with the customer to design a way that they be programmed and read (probably on a JTAG chain).
      - ddingus 2y ago
        They could burn the number in after the chip is made. Either one time fuses and some software, or via directed beam energy fusible or breakable links. Edit, yeah like the other comment suggested.
DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
These chips could have been manufactured by TSMC before the US issued an export ban: > It is unclear how the chip made its way to Huawei. In 2019, the company released its Ascend 910 chip series. At the time, prior to export controls, the chips were produced by TSMC, two sources told Reuters earlier this year. The question of why the US has the right or power to tell TSMC, a Taiwanese company, who it is allowed to do business often comes up in these discussions. I've often seen the response that this is US technology, and that any country would apply similar controls to its own technologies. What I don't think people realize is that these sorts of "secondary" controls are very unusual, internationally. The US imposes controls on goods manufactured abroad using US-made tools or intellectual property. This is a bit like the way that the GPL "infects" other projects, and forces them to abide by its terms, and to my knowledge, the US is the only country that does this (in any case, it's the only country doing this on such a large scale). If you think of how integrated the world economy is, these sorts of "infectious" controls are extremely disruptive.
- burnte 2y ago
  They say "if you want to do business in the US, with US companies, don't deal with these people/groups/countries."
  - j_walter 2y ago
    Exactly this...and since the US is by far the biggest revenue source for semiconductors it would be stupid to ignore this rule. Taiwan in general wants to maintain favor with the US because of the invasion threat of China as well (although I'm not 100% confident the US would get involved in that fight).
    - joshuaissac 2y ago
      > US is by far the biggest revenue source for semiconductors It's actually China, where sales account for 29% of global semiconductor sales, compared to 26% for the Americas (NA & SA). https://www.semiconductors.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/SIA_2024_State-of-Industry-Report.pdf https://www.semiconductors.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/SI... (PDF)
Aloha 2y ago
export compliance is a total absolute tire fire, its full of non-sensical policy, and contrary opinions, and the more countries your product goes thru, the worse it gets. Have a part made in Japan, integrated into a product in the states but sold by someone in the UK to in France? you'll have to comply with Japan, US and UK laws. Neat fact, the UK considers the Cisco C9200 switch to be a munition, because it has ipsec.
- ArchOversight 2y ago
  It's not only the UK that considers cryptography to be a munition. It is also classified as munitions in the US: > Encryption items specifically designed, developed, configured, adapted or modified for military applications (including command, control and intelligence applications) are controlled by the Department of State on the United States Munitions List. It was part of the whole crypto wars, and the lawsuit brought by Bernstein vs the United States. See more: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernstein_v._United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernstein_v._United_States - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_Wars - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_of_cryptography_from_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_of_cryptography_from_th...
  - Aloha 2y ago
    The Cisco C9200 is not considered a munition in the states.
    - ycombinatrix 2y ago
      Have you tried exporting it?
      - Aloha 2y ago
        Yes.
        theGeatZhopa 2y ago
throawayonthe 2y ago
[dead]

90 points by mikhael 2y ago

m3kw9 2y ago

I’m sure there is some unscrubbable serial number to at least trace the first, second merchant

iphoneisbetter 2y ago
[dead]
j_walter 2y ago
There is no serial number on the individual die, but TSMC has very unique test lines on the chip that would easily identify if it was in fact made at TSMC.
- 0xTJ 2y ago
  Is it indicated somewhere in this article, or somewhere else, that the dies are not programmed with a unique serial while still as part of a whole wafer?
  - j_walter 2y ago
    No, but any programming that would occur with identifiable information would occur after the wafer is cut and packaged. Generally this would be after delivery to TSMC's customer.
    - 0xTJ 2y ago
      There isn't any indication here one way or the other, but some the unique IDs of some devices (Microchip unique MAC chips) are documented as being programmed as a wafer, before being diced (as justification for them not being in serial order on a reel, that they may be shuffled from wafer to packaging).
  - wiml 2y ago
    By default I'd assume most chips don't get serialized (their package may have a date/lot code). The article doesn't say what the chip is, so I don't think there's a reason to think that it's one of the types of chip that does usually get a unique ID.
  - londons_explore 2y ago
    I don't have insider knowledge... But I could believe that there is no per-die serial number unless the customer wants one. It would be extra manufacturing steps, and require integration with the customers design. Due to the way lithography works, it isn't easy to make each die different. The usual way to put serial numbers into chips is with efuses, but not all chips have any efuses at all, and it would require collaboration with the customer to design a way that they be programmed and read (probably on a JTAG chain).
    - ddingus 2y ago
      They could burn the number in after the chip is made. Either one time fuses and some software, or via directed beam energy fusible or breakable links. Edit, yeah like the other comment suggested.

DiogenesKynikos 2y ago

These chips could have been manufactured by TSMC before the US issued an export ban: > It is unclear how the chip made its way to Huawei. In 2019, the company released its Ascend 910 chip series. At the time, prior to export controls, the chips were produced by TSMC, two sources told Reuters earlier this year. The question of why the US has the right or power to tell TSMC, a Taiwanese company, who it is allowed to do business often comes up in these discussions. I've often seen the response that this is US technology, and that any country would apply similar controls to its own technologies. What I don't think people realize is that these sorts of "secondary" controls are very unusual, internationally. The US imposes controls on goods manufactured abroad using US-made tools or intellectual property. This is a bit like the way that the GPL "infects" other projects, and forces them to abide by its terms, and to my knowledge, the US is the only country that does this (in any case, it's the only country doing this on such a large scale). If you think of how integrated the world economy is, these sorts of "infectious" controls are extremely disruptive.

burnte 2y ago
They say "if you want to do business in the US, with US companies, don't deal with these people/groups/countries."
- j_walter 2y ago
  Exactly this...and since the US is by far the biggest revenue source for semiconductors it would be stupid to ignore this rule. Taiwan in general wants to maintain favor with the US because of the invasion threat of China as well (although I'm not 100% confident the US would get involved in that fight).
  - joshuaissac 2y ago
    > US is by far the biggest revenue source for semiconductors It's actually China, where sales account for 29% of global semiconductor sales, compared to 26% for the Americas (NA & SA). https://www.semiconductors.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/SIA_2024_State-of-Industry-Report.pdf https://www.semiconductors.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/SI... (PDF)

Aloha 2y ago

export compliance is a total absolute tire fire, its full of non-sensical policy, and contrary opinions, and the more countries your product goes thru, the worse it gets. Have a part made in Japan, integrated into a product in the states but sold by someone in the UK to in France? you'll have to comply with Japan, US and UK laws. Neat fact, the UK considers the Cisco C9200 switch to be a munition, because it has ipsec.

ArchOversight 2y ago
It's not only the UK that considers cryptography to be a munition. It is also classified as munitions in the US: > Encryption items specifically designed, developed, configured, adapted or modified for military applications (including command, control and intelligence applications) are controlled by the Department of State on the United States Munitions List. It was part of the whole crypto wars, and the lawsuit brought by Bernstein vs the United States. See more: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernstein_v._United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernstein_v._United_States - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_Wars - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_of_cryptography_from_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_of_cryptography_from_th...
- Aloha 2y ago
  The Cisco C9200 is not considered a munition in the states.
  - ycombinatrix 2y ago
    Have you tried exporting it?
    - Aloha 2y ago
      Yes.
      - theGeatZhopa 2y ago

throawayonthe 2y ago

[dead]