8 ms·
The Japanese word ikigai refers to a passion that gives joy to life (2022)
- huvarda 2y agoThis article kind of feels like a "place, Japan" type of article not going to lie. "There is no other word like this in any other language." Passion? Purpose?
- MarkSweep 2y agoLooking at an Japanese to English dictionary: https://jisho.org/search/%E7%94%9F%E3%81%8D%E7%94%B2%E6%96%90 https://jisho.org/search/%E7%94%9F%E3%81%8D%E7%94%B2%E6%96%9... Besides the examples you mention, the French phrase “raison d'être” is commonly used in English well.
- vunderba 2y agoBut summing up their "profound discovery" in a single sentence wouldn't give them the opportunity to write a 200 page bloviated soft-serve yogurt treatise on the guaranteed secrets to true happiness.
- asdasdsddd 2y agothat's how i feel about umami (savoury) and kawaii (cute)
- bigstrat2003 2y agoPeople using "umami" in English is a big pet peeve of mine. It's so damn pretentious. "Savory" covers the meaning more than adequately and has existed in the language for a long time. There's no reason for the foreign loan word except to try to sound super smart.
- dymk 2y agoIt’s not the same flavor
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- yen223 2y agoUmami refers to a specific flavour, savoury refers to a broad category of foods that are basically not sweet. You can have "savoury" meals that have no umami flavour.
- asdasdsddd 2y agoI can assure you that japanese people don't refer to umami as a flavor lol
- quesera 2y agoUmami is a subset of savory. It's not pretentious (when used correctly), it's more precise.
- mark_l_watson 2y agoThat is correct. I buy a liquid specifically labeled as ‘Umami’ that my family adds to vegetables, rice, etc.
- echoangle 2y agoIs the liquid MSG solution or is there something else in there?
- mark_l_watson 2y agoNo MSG.
- echoangle 2y agoSo what is it?
- mark_l_watson 2y agoYondu vegetable umami
- echoangle 2y agoThat seems to be made from fermented soybeans which is also how pure MSG is produced. I’m pretty sure the main active component of this is also just MSG, although they point out that they don’t explicitly add artificial MSG.
- mock-possum 2y agoCan you not distinguish the flavour of umami from other flavors?
- hatthew 2y agoI disagree. As the other comments have stated, umami and savory are completely different words. I agree that kawaii and cute are synonyms, but I only see it being used in vaguely japanese-related contexts, where it's not necessary but also not in any way a misuse, similar to how "hors d'oeuvre" is used in place of "appetizer".
- musicale 2y agoIt's easy to find examples such as: "Taste receptors in the mouth sense the five basic tastes: sweetness, sourness, saltiness, bitterness, and savoriness (also known as savory or umami)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taste#Basic_tastes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taste#Basic_tastes
- trinix912 2y agoIt is an article on a Japanese Government website, of course they're going to promote themselves. Honestly, I find it weird to have this posted here. It's just a classic "Welcome to ____" site for attracting tourists.
- creamyhorror 2y agoI have to wonder who is upvoting this promotional material. Has this reconstructed ikigai concept not burnt through social media already, or will we have to see it resurge every few years?
- brabel 2y agoThere's a weird fascination in much of the Western world with Japan. We see posts talking about Japan on the first page of HN quite regularly. I am myself somewhat fascinated with Japan as I grew up with many Japanese descendants (their parents were "real" japanese, I am from Brazil and most of them came to Brazil in the 50's, so my friends born in the 70's and 80's were still first generation brazilians) and have been there to visit them once.... but I find it odd that there's no such fascination with most other countries. I suspect it's because Japan is both very different culturally, but very similar in level of development, so it's "easier" to like them instead of think of them as inferiors (which was how the West seemed to see them before the Great Wars, from what I read).
- Minor49er 2y ago"Vocation" is a synonym, though it is misrepresented by the Venn diagram at the bottom of the article Looking up "vocation" in modern dictionaries just says that it's a career, but that is wrong. The real meaning is a "calling", or: something that brings good to the world, that you can do, that you enjoy doing, and that sustains your livelihood I grew up around Lutheran communities who stressed what a gift a vocation is because it isn't something that most people can reach. But we shouldn't stop looking for ours
- volemo 2y agoWhat is “the real meaning” of a word though?
- Minor49er 2y agoThe definition it is given by the group that actually uses it
- quesera 2y agoHave you heard of "vocational schools"? That use of the term is no more "wrong" than yours -- i.e. they are both correct and clear in context. I'm very aware of the Latin root.
- card_zero 2y agoOn average, "water".
- SatvikBeri 2y agoFrom the excellent 1913 Webster's dictionary: Vo-ca′tion (vō̍-kā′shŭn), noun [L. vocatio a bidding, invitation, fr. vocare to call, fr. vox, vocis, voice: cf. F. vocation. See Vocal.] 1. A call; a summons; a citation; especially, a designation or appointment to a particular state, business, or profession. 2. Destined or appropriate employment; calling; occupation; trade; business; profession. 3. (Theol.) A calling by the will of God. Specifically: – (a) The bestowment of God’s distinguishing grace upon a person or nation, by which that person or nation is put in the way of salvation; as, the vocation of the Jews under the old dispensation, and of the Gentiles under the gospel. (b) A call to special religious work, as to the ministry.
- fildevtronic 2y agoYou do realise that this is published by the Japanese government, right?
- xelxebar 2y agoI like to think of words having two layers of meaning: The first is closer to what we think of as The Meaning and is an extrinsic referent, such as a physical item, some cultural custom, or an emotion or feeling. The second layer is nuance, i.e. the cloud of homonymic overtones, cultural and historical associations, and habitual usages that color the first meaning. The second layer controls things like formality register (e.g. business languages vs. informal vernacular), mood, jokes, and all the elements of communication that go beyond just base information transfer. In my experience when translating between languages, it's virtually impossible to capture the subtleties of the second layer of meaning. You always have to make some concessions, pertinent to the intent and goals of the communication at hand. E.g. translating a joke in a business exchange will often choose different translations for the same words used in a more brass-tacks context. Anyway, all that is to say that, sure, "passion" or "purpose" are perfectly fine translations of ikigai (生き甲斐), but they simultaneously connote very different things. Passion invokes images of strong emotions, beliefs, or some fire under the feet. Purpose potentially conjures ideas of necessity or philosophical meaning. None of these things are really suggested by the Japanese word. More generally, the the "gai" suffix (甲斐) is used on verbs to mean something like "to be worth doing" or "to have been worth doing". In particular, it's often used to refer to the particular result or effect that makes the thing worth doing. In the case of "ikigai", we combine it with "iki", from the verb "to live" (生きる), which gives us something like "the thing that makes life worth living". The main feeling difference between "ikigai" and "purpose" or "passion", IMHO, is that the Japanese is light, personal, and something that doesn't need significance beyond personal enjoyment, pleasure, or values. </2cents>
- m463 2y ago"get a life"? (seriously)
- wampwampwhat 2y agonot to be confused with ikijime: The secret to tasty fish
- Minor49er 2y ago"I want fugu!"
- isamuel 2y agoAt the end, there's one of the craziest Venn diagrams I've seen in a while. The diagram asserts that --- by definition --- you aren't good at your "mission," the world does not need your "profession," you can't be paid for your "passion," and you can't love your "vocation." Grim!
- kulahan 2y agoThat's not what it's trying to imply. It's saying that if you chose a job based on what the world needs and what you love doing, you're in the realm of completing a mission. Then you look at the diagram to see what you're missing to reach Ikigai. This is a very "glass half empty" look at a literal diagram lol.
- grisBeik 2y agoThere's this diagram, and there's David Graeber's book Bullshit Jobs. "What you love" and "What you are good at" certainly have a non-empty intersection, but that's mostly a distinct set from "what you can be paid for". "What you are good at" and "What you can be paid for" also have a non-empty intersection, but that set is again (mostly) distinct from "what you love". In brief, you can enjoy work, but then it will pay shit, or you can make money, but you'll hate it. The most interesting part however is the right hand side. "What you can be paid for" and "What the world needs" have a practically empty intersection. Regardless of both personal skill and drive, there is effectively zero money available for the sorest needs of society. (Public healthcare (including mental health), public education, public infrastructure, etc.) Nice diagram, but a pipe dream.
- iterance 2y agoThe obvious question to ask about this purported "pick two" triad is, why must that be so? - If one is good at their job, why does that imply that either they won't be paid well, or they'll hate it? - If one enjoys their job, why does that imply they must be paid poorly or suck at it? - If one is paid well, why does that imply they will be eaten alive by work or terrible at their job? The assertions such diagrams make just don't stand up to scrutiny when viewed in reverse. They should stand up to symmetry, and clearly do not; the veneer of logic is peeled away. Instead it reveals the underlying issue: they serve only to elucidate a cynical outlook. Perhaps in general, I'll admit, there is presently a shortage of opportunities working for the public good; but I'm reluctant to even give an inch on that because it lends itself to a cynical belief system about the world which the statement alone does not imply: it is not necessarily a true inference to say that, if there is a shortage, there will never be; or, that if one wants such a job, they will never be able to get it and best give up early. Don't let cynicism take you. It will take, and take, and take, and leave you only table scraps of joy.
- kaycebasques 2y agoIs this term actually used widely through Japanese culture or are they just riding the popularity train? E.g. if I'm in a "planning your future career" class in a high school in Japan, is the concept of ikigai going to come up?
- blargey 2y agoIt's a normal word/concept that everyone's familiar with. As for career planning, I don't think it's very relevant. The sorta-equivalent sayings like "do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life!" tend to be used in a way that puts existing preferences and interests first, and everything else as a consequence of it. The way I'd think of "ikigai" in a career context, the work being meaningful (as in the opposite of a "bullshit job") is what comes first. Since it's meaningful, it's something the world needs, so you can get paid for it. Since it's the opposite of a bullshit job, you're motivated to devote the time and effort and attention to be(come) good at it. A job well-done is satisfying. So I'd envision it as something you settle into, rather than plan ahead with your guidance counselor equivalent. It's also not necessarily a word specific to jobs/careers in the first place, and in a literal sense only means "I live for this" / "it's worth living for". The rest is a recent fixation by writers.
- anigbrowl 2y agoNo. It's just lifestyle marketing.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- Ferret7446 2y agoIt's a normal term, but I'm not familiar with it being used like this. This does smell like a "self improvement" marketing push. The Japanese Wikipedia article seems to heavily cite Western sources as the origin for this usage. https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%94%9F%E3%81%8D%E7%94%B2%E6%96%90 https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%94%9F%E3%81%8D%E7%94%B2%E6... Back in reality, the word is more commonly used in the expression 生き甲斐がある (ikigai ga aru) which means roughly "Life is good", "I'm glad to be alive", which you might use after sipping a really good beer for example.
- sweeter 2y agohave hobbies and goals and participate in community activities... I don't know how I feel about platitudes like this. On one hand, it is obviously true and doing this things will make you feel better... but at the same time I think most people already understand this and its not a matter of simply not knowing that this is a helpful thing to do.
- revorad 2y agoThis is an interesting take on the concept of Ikigai - https://www.lkazphoto.com/blog/photography-and-ikigai https://www.lkazphoto.com/blog/photography-and-ikigai
- golemiprague 2y ago[dead]
- rjaknba 2y agoThis is a meaningless diagram that CEOs roll out when they want to make the point that everyone should focus more on business. It has the same value as the Gartner Magic Quadrant.
- lobochrome 2y agoGood old orientalism
- androng 2y ago>When we asked what their ikigai was, they gave us explicit answers, such as their friends, gardening, and art Correct me if I'm wrong but almost no one is paid for friends, gardening or art. And the definition of ikigai is "something you can be paid for". So this concept of ikigai essentially does not exist.
- addicted 2y agoBased on the article alone, you seem to be getting that from the Venn diagram. But the Venn diagram doesn’t attempt to define Ikigai. It’s a tool to help one find their own ikigai. The definition of ikugai in the article does not include something you can be paid for.
- somethoughts 2y agoMy hot take is that the part that got lost in translation as it transitioned into a pithy airport bookstore business book is that it originally didn't have to be a single activity that covers all of the Venn diagram. It is more about making sure the union of the Venn diagram is covered by one or more daily activities. So hobbies are about ensuring that you are not just focusing on the vocation circle.
- mark_l_watson 2y agoI read the book referenced in the article. Recommended! Simple but effective ideas. Similar in vibe to the book The Four Agreements.
- somethoughts 2y agoI found this useful The Problem with Ikigai https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeX6kNbaF0w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeX6kNbaF0w The TLDR I got from is that first - that the diagram itself was made up by someone trying to write a business blog/book. The second is that the goal is not to find one singular activity to cover the intersection of the Ikigai Venn diagram. Instead it can be better to have multiple different activities which ensure the union of the Ikigai Venn diagram is covered so you aren't myopically focused on one area of it.
- hindsightbias 2y agoSeems like someone would be lucky to have the intersection of three or four.
- silcoon 2y agoI like how the sets in the articles show that you cannot love your profession
- Rendello 2y agoMy Japanese friend said "My 生き甲斐 is travel". She was unfamiliar with the Venn diagram, for her she would directly translate it as "passion". Turns out the Venn diagram relation is from a random 2014 blog post. He just found a Venn diagram online and replaced the word "purpose" with "ikigai": http://theviewinside.wpengine.com/meme-seeding/ http://theviewinside.wpengine.com/meme-seeding/
- turnsout 2y agoI've talked to a number of Japanese people about Ikigai, and they either didn't know about the Venn diagram, or thought it misrepresented the concept. It's the modern-day equivalent of "the Chinese word for crisis" [0]. But now it's unstoppable—I'm sure you can find pillows on Etsy with the diagram. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_word_for_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_word_for_crisis
- senectus1 2y agoI think I have an issue with knowing what I love. I dont actually know what I love, so I'm not sure I can ever find Ikigai in my life...
- 999900000999 2y agoAccording to this, if I ever make a living off music I'd be in paradise. Too bad Suno can crank out weird lofi beats faster than I can...
- wodenokoto 2y agoIkigai is a great branding for Japan. They’ve taken a word, declared it untranslatable and a unique component of Japanese culture. Denmark has done the same with the word “Hygge” and you’ll find books named “hygge”, next to books named “ikigai” in self-help section of any airport bookstore. I don’t think discussing ikigai is uninteresting, but there is a feedback loop. Japanese soft power benefits from ikigai being special, and books and articles about ikigai also benefits from it being unique and special. The more books you can sell on ikigai, the stronger Japans cultural influence becomes and as a result, the potential readership of ikigai book grows.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- gwervc 2y ago> They’ve taken a word, declared it untranslatable and a unique component of Japanese culture. Pretty sure this is foreigners who did this. On the other hand, a lot of Japanese are convinced they're living in the only country with 4 seasons.
- camgunz 2y agoThis reminded me of Japanese micro seasons [0] which I found delightful. 0: https://www.nippon.com/en/features/h00124/ https://www.nippon.com/en/features/h00124/
- helb 2y agoI have these in my google calendar. Kinda forgot they were japanese and they don't line up with our (european) weather perfectly, but i still enjoy seeing them there. Found them on HN years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20377098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20377098
- DavideNL 2y agoThanks for the link!
- qrybam 2y agoAmazing to see this. I just landed after a week in Japan where we discovered this word and instantly recognised how it applies to our team. Made heavy use of it when pitching to explain our passion for what we do.
- chengiz 2y agoDo you know why people in Okinawa and Sardinia have great longevity? Is it Ikigai, or living simple village life, or eating maggot infested cheese? No, it's because of lack of record keeping, specifically families keeping people "alive" to collect pensions: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/704080v3 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/704080v3
- nilawafer 2y ago.
- chengiz 2y ago"Recently been shown" by the paper I linked to.
- csallen 2y agoResponse from some blue zone demographers to the paper you linked: https://www.bluezones.com/news/are-supercentenarian-claims-based-on-age-exaggeration https://www.bluezones.com/news/are-supercentenarian-claims-b... It begins, "The pre-print is not new data, research, or a study. It is a theory – an opinion paper that the author has been unable to get published in any scientific journal or peer-reviewed publication. The original version of the paper was released as a pre-print in 2019 and still has not been properly published, meaning the theories have never passed any scientific peer review." And it continues with a point-by-point rebuttal. Worth taking a look at.
- bitbasher 2y agoJapan (historically high suicide rates), telling us how to live. I think I'll take my chances with another philosophy.
- dasil003 2y agoMaybe country-level culture is too coarse-grained to tell any individual what is right for them? (BTW, I get the irony of an American saying this, but I do say it sincerely)
- redwall_hp 2y agoStereotypically. In reality, it's middle of the pack in either 2000 or 2019 and lower than the US now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r...
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- dang 2y agoRelated. Others? Ikigai: What We Got Wrong and How to Find Meaning in Life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39777896 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39777896 - March 2024 (83 comments) Photography and Ikigai - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31579522 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31579522 - June 2022 (10 comments) Passion is self-centered crap. Find your Ikigai (2018) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20486393 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20486393 - July 2019 (20 comments) Ikigai and Mortality (2008) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16248307 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16248307 - Jan 2018 (1 comment)
- kayo_20211030 2y agoI'm sure there are more. I recall tons of these posts, and am too lazy to search. It was, and I guess still is, a thing that people go back to over and over. I think it makes people feel good for no particular reason
- pezezin 2y agoThe Japanese word isekai refers to the desire to escape your miserable life and start from scratch in a new, better place /s Jokes aside, I live in Japan, and I wouldn't take them as the example of a happy, balanced society. Given the explosion of popularity of isekai animes in recent years, quite the opposite.
- agumonkey 2y agoHow to balance ikigai with society ? being averaged by groups and stuck in norms is probably the number one reason daily life is the opposite of ikigai.
- SuperNinKenDo 2y agoI absolutely hate this concept. It's trite life advice wrapped up in self-serving orientalism/ethnic exceptionalism. It literally just boils down to "if you find life meaningless, just find some mundane thing and invest it with meaning for yourself", and somehow I'm supposed to be wowed by an aenemic, EILIF version of Nietzche. Literal "Place" vs "Place, Japan" meme. Why do you think Japan has so much suicide? Because all anybody has to say to anybody is "ganbattene~". Some people run out of "ganbari"? "Ganbattene~~".
- cdavid 2y agoJapan suicide rate has decreased a lot, and is now almost the world average, it is actually lower than in the US and several European countries. I agree however that this smells of orientialism. I don't speak anywhere fluently Japanese, but having lived there for 15 years, the only time I've seen or heard of the ikigai concept is in the "Book for foreigners" section.
- SuperNinKenDo 2y agoThat's very interesting, I will have to do some research and perhaps update my priors.