8 ms·

I am surprised we don't see more "Dr. Doolittle" projects like this. I assumed rats or corvids would be good candidates for animal language translation projects

I am surprised we don't see more "Dr. Doolittle" projects like this. I assumed rats or corvids would be good candidates for animal language translation projects since you can keep them in a confined space and record video of them. I am sure that body language plays a huge role in animal communication. I recently read a paper[0] that claimed to have decoded the basic building blocks of Sperm whale language. I went and took a look at the github for the project CETI and found that most of the code was for the whale trackers and hydrophones. It seems like there are a lot of pre-requisite problems that you have to solve to even get good whale recordings. On the other hand though, whales probably don't rely on body language since they are communicating way out of line of sight. So it may be easier in that regard. Anyways, I am convinced that we will figure out how to teach some basic human concepts (like self) to animals and the intelligence of even "stupid" animals like chickens will make people more reluctant to eat meat. [0] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-47221-8#:~:text=Sperm%20whale%20vocalisations%20are%20more%20expressive%20and%20structured,organisms%20with%20divergent%20evolutionary%20lineage%20and%20vocal%20apparatus https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-47221-8#:~:text=S....

pvaldes 2y ago
> I am surprised we don't see more "Dr. Doolittle" projects like this Robots asking millions of birds to attack any hooman at sight in its own bird language, AKA the Tippi Hedren project. Seems pretty fly.
- speed_spread 2y ago
  More likely, instructing birds to fly in Nike Swoosh formation (or some other logo) on command for cheap low altitude sky adverts.
  - hotspot_one 2y ago
    And this is why capitalism will always win over communism :)
jampekka 2y ago
A major reason was that there was a dogma that language is uniquely human phenomenon. It was already part of the hugely Decartes' philosophy of mind and got a strong revival with Chomskian linguistics and the "cognitive revolution" in the late 1950's. There was sporadaric research into animal linguistics, e.g. the Koko study, but those were dismissed on the grounds that animals can't have language by definition. The ethics of enslaving and torturing animals is definitely part of the motivation for the dogma.
- Fripplebubby 2y ago
  To be clear - as of today, many researchers would agree that language is still a uniquely human phenomenon. They discuss this pretty explicitly in the article linked, how it is important to draw a distinction between language and communication. There are no non-human species that have been found to use language for the Chomskian definition of language (using a finite set of symbols to represent an infinite number of communicable meanings). However, this "dogma" as you call it is beginning to be weakened as researchers document more nuance and complexity in non-human communication than ever before, and so some researchers begin to say, "maybe we shouldn't have this all-or-nothing view of language". But it is simply not true that researchers are suppressing evidence of language in animals out of a desire to enslave and torture them.
  - circlefavshape 2y ago
    > using a finite set of symbols to represent an infinite number of communicable meanings This always seemed wildly implausible to me. A very large number of communicable meanings, sure, but infinite?
    - Majromax 2y ago
      > This always seemed wildly implausible to me. A very large number of communicable meanings, sure, but infinite? This is "trivial" in the boring kind of way. With just digits, we can communicate an infinite set of distinct numbers simply by counting.
throwawaymaths 2y ago
Dr Doolittle on corvids would be easy. 1. Train crows to push a touchscreen for reward of food. 2. Next set up two touchscreens back to back. Make it so touching one screen only dispenses food on the other side. 3. Next make it so food is dispensed on the other side only one crow is perched at each terminal. 4. Next make it so food is only dispensed after a crow says something to the other crow on the other side. 5. Next display a picture on one terminal and give the other crow the choice of four quadrants. The food is dispensed if the picture on the far side matches the displayed picture. 6. Start decoding words.
- lacker 2y ago
  Hey, that makes a lot of sense. There's a lot of crows who come to the bird feeder in my backyard. I would just have to figure out how to easily make a food dispenser, and what sort of touch screen a crow can activate....
  - throwawaymaths 2y ago
    I would do it myself but where I am there are almost no corvids, they (and city pigeons) are basically displaced by the highly aggressive local bird. Which seems to swarm around from time to time but doesn't stay anywhere permanent locally except for grocery store parking lots. That's probably enough to leak location info on this anon account so I'll shut up now
- wormlord 2y ago
  This could be done cheaply with some rooted Kindle Fire tablets. I don't follow 100% but it sounds cool.
- dekhn 2y ago
  Not exactly your protocol, but I'm reminded of https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/scientists-taught-pet-parrots-to-video-call-each-other-and-the-birds-loved-it-180982041/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/scientists-taught-...
forgotoldacc 2y ago
I think one problem with the idea of learning the language of captive animals is that it runs on the assumption that animals have an inherent language. There was some research centuries ago that involved raising kids without exposure to the outside world of languages in hopes of learning what our "natural" language was. Turns out there isn't one. And I think the same applies to animals. Bird songs have already been noted to have accents by region. We'll probably end up finding out that if animals do have complex language, it's something they develop through community exposure just like humans do, and it'll vary by area. Crows in Texas will talk very different from crows in England, I'm sure. With pets, most of them are kept isolated from the world at large. It wouldn't surprise me if dogs raised by people have very stilted or nonexistent language compared to feral dogs. Maybe 200 years from now, we'll see the modern concept of raising dogs completely alone as inhumane and sending them off to doggy daycare a couple times a week to learn the local dog language and "culture" will be normalized.
appplication 2y ago
I think the thing about animal language is there is no objective truth to it. Even with well defined words and educated and experienced communicators, miscommunication and ambiguity is everywhere in human language. For animals I think there is less language as we know it. Communication is an instantaneous and unfiltered expression of mental state, and there isn’t much guarantee that it’s received as intended. My dog is the friendliest little dude. He will play bow other dogs immediately, and then jump around with excitement. But it’s extremely common that other dogs misread this and respond with aggression. I suppose I think animal language is less something we could ever learn academically and more something you just feel.

pvaldes 2y ago

> I am surprised we don't see more "Dr. Doolittle" projects like this Robots asking millions of birds to attack any hooman at sight in its own bird language, AKA the Tippi Hedren project. Seems pretty fly.

speed_spread 2y ago
More likely, instructing birds to fly in Nike Swoosh formation (or some other logo) on command for cheap low altitude sky adverts.
- hotspot_one 2y ago
  And this is why capitalism will always win over communism :)

jampekka 2y ago

A major reason was that there was a dogma that language is uniquely human phenomenon. It was already part of the hugely Decartes' philosophy of mind and got a strong revival with Chomskian linguistics and the "cognitive revolution" in the late 1950's. There was sporadaric research into animal linguistics, e.g. the Koko study, but those were dismissed on the grounds that animals can't have language by definition. The ethics of enslaving and torturing animals is definitely part of the motivation for the dogma.

Fripplebubby 2y ago
To be clear - as of today, many researchers would agree that language is still a uniquely human phenomenon. They discuss this pretty explicitly in the article linked, how it is important to draw a distinction between language and communication. There are no non-human species that have been found to use language for the Chomskian definition of language (using a finite set of symbols to represent an infinite number of communicable meanings). However, this "dogma" as you call it is beginning to be weakened as researchers document more nuance and complexity in non-human communication than ever before, and so some researchers begin to say, "maybe we shouldn't have this all-or-nothing view of language". But it is simply not true that researchers are suppressing evidence of language in animals out of a desire to enslave and torture them.
- circlefavshape 2y ago
  > using a finite set of symbols to represent an infinite number of communicable meanings This always seemed wildly implausible to me. A very large number of communicable meanings, sure, but infinite?
  - Majromax 2y ago
    > This always seemed wildly implausible to me. A very large number of communicable meanings, sure, but infinite? This is "trivial" in the boring kind of way. With just digits, we can communicate an infinite set of distinct numbers simply by counting.

throwawaymaths 2y ago

Dr Doolittle on corvids would be easy. 1. Train crows to push a touchscreen for reward of food. 2. Next set up two touchscreens back to back. Make it so touching one screen only dispenses food on the other side. 3. Next make it so food is dispensed on the other side only one crow is perched at each terminal. 4. Next make it so food is only dispensed after a crow says something to the other crow on the other side. 5. Next display a picture on one terminal and give the other crow the choice of four quadrants. The food is dispensed if the picture on the far side matches the displayed picture. 6. Start decoding words.

lacker 2y ago
Hey, that makes a lot of sense. There's a lot of crows who come to the bird feeder in my backyard. I would just have to figure out how to easily make a food dispenser, and what sort of touch screen a crow can activate....
- throwawaymaths 2y ago
  I would do it myself but where I am there are almost no corvids, they (and city pigeons) are basically displaced by the highly aggressive local bird. Which seems to swarm around from time to time but doesn't stay anywhere permanent locally except for grocery store parking lots. That's probably enough to leak location info on this anon account so I'll shut up now
wormlord 2y ago
This could be done cheaply with some rooted Kindle Fire tablets. I don't follow 100% but it sounds cool.
dekhn 2y ago
Not exactly your protocol, but I'm reminded of https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/scientists-taught-pet-parrots-to-video-call-each-other-and-the-birds-loved-it-180982041/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/scientists-taught-...

forgotoldacc 2y ago

I think one problem with the idea of learning the language of captive animals is that it runs on the assumption that animals have an inherent language. There was some research centuries ago that involved raising kids without exposure to the outside world of languages in hopes of learning what our "natural" language was. Turns out there isn't one. And I think the same applies to animals. Bird songs have already been noted to have accents by region. We'll probably end up finding out that if animals do have complex language, it's something they develop through community exposure just like humans do, and it'll vary by area. Crows in Texas will talk very different from crows in England, I'm sure. With pets, most of them are kept isolated from the world at large. It wouldn't surprise me if dogs raised by people have very stilted or nonexistent language compared to feral dogs. Maybe 200 years from now, we'll see the modern concept of raising dogs completely alone as inhumane and sending them off to doggy daycare a couple times a week to learn the local dog language and "culture" will be normalized.

appplication 2y ago

I think the thing about animal language is there is no objective truth to it. Even with well defined words and educated and experienced communicators, miscommunication and ambiguity is everywhere in human language. For animals I think there is less language as we know it. Communication is an instantaneous and unfiltered expression of mental state, and there isn’t much guarantee that it’s received as intended. My dog is the friendliest little dude. He will play bow other dogs immediately, and then jump around with excitement. But it’s extremely common that other dogs misread this and respond with aggression. I suppose I think animal language is less something we could ever learn academically and more something you just feel.