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Looking at the underlying thread[1], the author mentions that it's very hard to publish on Google Play > Reason is a combination of Google making Play publishi

Looking at the underlying thread[1], the author mentions that it's very hard to publish on Google Play > Reason is a combination of Google making Play publishing something between hard and impossible Can someone expand on what's going on here? [1]: https://forum.syncthing.net/t/discontinuing-syncthing-android/23002 https://forum.syncthing.net/t/discontinuing-syncthing-androi...

binkHN 2y ago
While I don't know about this developer's specific issues, I can comment on my own issues with Google Play as an Android developer. Google Play continues to become more and more stringent with app permissions and the approval of these permissions is very vague. With my own app, from one minor release the next, one day I'll receive approval for my app's permissions and the next week I will not even though only minor changes to the app have been made. When I reach out to Google Play support, the answers are always extremely vague, canned and repetitive and I never know if an update to my app will get approval or not. It's a horrible way to develop anything.
- 1over137 2y ago
  Sounds just like Apple’s stores!
- lawgimenez 2y ago
  The most annoying requirement is their Play Store delete account url. We have an API where we can delete the user’s account. But no, Google wanted a stupid url.
  - macintux 2y ago
    Is that so that users who no longer have/want to use the app can still delete their account?
    - lawgimenez 2y ago
      Yes we have a delete account option in our settings screen. But Google asking for url webpage for this scenario is just unnecessary. Apple accepted it with no questions.
  - spankalee 2y ago
    How do users use the API?
  - bmicraft 2y ago
    Is it really that hard to set up a small proxy tool that calls your fancy api when it receives those requests? As an outsider, it does seem quite reasonable to me - Google couldn't possibly support all APIs there may possibly exist for every app there is.
    - lawgimenez 2y ago
      We can’t tell for sure since this url will be added to the Play Store. Problem is how to authenticate users.
    - beeboobaa3 2y ago
      how are you going to authenticate the user? now you need to solve that if you didn't have a web login before. --- Guess @dang decided to rate limit my account again so I can't post replies :-) > Some token that every account gets generated? It's really not that much to ask honestly. How is the user going to know this token when they visit the website on their laptop? Keep in mind that the Google requirement is that you link to this delete page from the play store, where the user is not authenticated with your app. You can't just generate an URL containing this token.
      - bmicraft 2y ago
        Some token that every account gets generated? It's really not that much to ask honestly.
      - mkl 2y ago
        > Guess @dang decided to rate limit my account again so I can't post replies :-) There are automatic rate limits that apply to everyone. IME you can still click on the comment's timestamp to be able to reply.
        bakugo 2y ago
        If you post something the moderators don't like, your account can be manually rate limited to a max of 5 comments per X (24?) hours.
- Daedren 2y ago
  Yeah now it's just like developing for Apple. Have been suffering from Apple's vague and canned responses for years.
izacus 2y ago
In this case the author doesn't want to use Storage Access Framework APIs to access the file system which were mandated a few years ago as the way to access data outside the app sandbox. They're Java-only APIs and since Syncthings core isn't written in Java, the author would have to write JNI glue to call Android when writing/reading files (and honestly this would be quite tedious, because the way SAF works is to assign Uris to each file and you need to keep querying it to get folder structure since you can't just concat paths like with files). The author didn't want to do that and tried to persuade Google to continue letting them access all files, all photos and all documents directly and Google said no. That was the "difficulty" - turns out it's really hard to publish on Play if you refuse to follow the guidelines. Just like on AppStore.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Many folks keep thinking that just because Android uses the Linux kernel, it is supposed to behave like GNU/Linux. Likewise they will be rather surprised to insist in targeting iOS/iPadOS/watchOS as if they are UNIX clones.
  - bmicraft 2y ago
    Android being linux has exactly nothing to do with the fact that apps can't access resources outside their sandbox if they aren't mapped in somehow. Just like with lxc or docker containers on linux, jails on *bsd, or any other sandboxes.
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      The only Linux thing on Android is the kernel, use anything else at your peril regarding portability between updates and OEM custom forks. https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/stable_apis https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/stable_apis
      - bmicraft 2y ago
        The only linux thing is always the kernel. Userspace isn't linux by definition on any* system. That might seem like a pedantic point to make, but I would like to point out that gnu utils aren't required to make a system "Linux", and whether you're using a drop-in replacement like uutils or go a more different route doesn't make it any less "Linux". Android Apps are and mostly always have been restricted to the Java virtual machine (or its modern equivalent) exactly because that makes them portable between sometimes quite different base systems from different vendors. If you insist that makes it less of a Linux system I'd like to know what you think of flatpak apps on top of immutable distros. I hope you agree that, conceptually, they're quite close actually.
zo1 2y ago
I've done a few apps as part of my day job. And my best explanation and/or analogy is government regulations. The store requirements, apis and rules are documented up to the upteenth degree in 49 pages spread across many areas, and unless you're "in the know", you have no way to implement it to a reliable degree. And then all this ends up doing is punishing small / low-budget / low-time developers, leading to consolidation around the big players. The big players can push their weight around to some degree, they get an element of built-in trust, and they have the sheer budget/time to implement all the ridiculous and sometimes onerous requirements. All in all, they're cementing their market position and trying to make "sticky" and invested players that will prop-up the play store for the coming decades.
- sdoering 2y ago
  This is the best analogy I have yet read. It perfectly sums up my experience.
- tbrownaw 2y ago
  Regulatory capture for fun and profit!

binkHN 2y ago

While I don't know about this developer's specific issues, I can comment on my own issues with Google Play as an Android developer. Google Play continues to become more and more stringent with app permissions and the approval of these permissions is very vague. With my own app, from one minor release the next, one day I'll receive approval for my app's permissions and the next week I will not even though only minor changes to the app have been made. When I reach out to Google Play support, the answers are always extremely vague, canned and repetitive and I never know if an update to my app will get approval or not. It's a horrible way to develop anything.

1over137 2y ago
Sounds just like Apple’s stores!
lawgimenez 2y ago
The most annoying requirement is their Play Store delete account url. We have an API where we can delete the user’s account. But no, Google wanted a stupid url.
- macintux 2y ago
  Is that so that users who no longer have/want to use the app can still delete their account?
  - lawgimenez 2y ago
    Yes we have a delete account option in our settings screen. But Google asking for url webpage for this scenario is just unnecessary. Apple accepted it with no questions.
- spankalee 2y ago
  How do users use the API?
- bmicraft 2y ago
  Is it really that hard to set up a small proxy tool that calls your fancy api when it receives those requests? As an outsider, it does seem quite reasonable to me - Google couldn't possibly support all APIs there may possibly exist for every app there is.
  - lawgimenez 2y ago
    We can’t tell for sure since this url will be added to the Play Store. Problem is how to authenticate users.
  - beeboobaa3 2y ago
    how are you going to authenticate the user? now you need to solve that if you didn't have a web login before. --- Guess @dang decided to rate limit my account again so I can't post replies :-) > Some token that every account gets generated? It's really not that much to ask honestly. How is the user going to know this token when they visit the website on their laptop? Keep in mind that the Google requirement is that you link to this delete page from the play store, where the user is not authenticated with your app. You can't just generate an URL containing this token.
    - bmicraft 2y ago
      Some token that every account gets generated? It's really not that much to ask honestly.
    - mkl 2y ago
      > Guess @dang decided to rate limit my account again so I can't post replies :-) There are automatic rate limits that apply to everyone. IME you can still click on the comment's timestamp to be able to reply.
      - bakugo 2y ago
        If you post something the moderators don't like, your account can be manually rate limited to a max of 5 comments per X (24?) hours.
Daedren 2y ago
Yeah now it's just like developing for Apple. Have been suffering from Apple's vague and canned responses for years.

izacus 2y ago

In this case the author doesn't want to use Storage Access Framework APIs to access the file system which were mandated a few years ago as the way to access data outside the app sandbox. They're Java-only APIs and since Syncthings core isn't written in Java, the author would have to write JNI glue to call Android when writing/reading files (and honestly this would be quite tedious, because the way SAF works is to assign Uris to each file and you need to keep querying it to get folder structure since you can't just concat paths like with files). The author didn't want to do that and tried to persuade Google to continue letting them access all files, all photos and all documents directly and Google said no. That was the "difficulty" - turns out it's really hard to publish on Play if you refuse to follow the guidelines. Just like on AppStore.

pjmlp 2y ago
Many folks keep thinking that just because Android uses the Linux kernel, it is supposed to behave like GNU/Linux. Likewise they will be rather surprised to insist in targeting iOS/iPadOS/watchOS as if they are UNIX clones.
- bmicraft 2y ago
  Android being linux has exactly nothing to do with the fact that apps can't access resources outside their sandbox if they aren't mapped in somehow. Just like with lxc or docker containers on linux, jails on *bsd, or any other sandboxes.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    The only Linux thing on Android is the kernel, use anything else at your peril regarding portability between updates and OEM custom forks. https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/stable_apis https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/stable_apis
    - bmicraft 2y ago
      The only linux thing is always the kernel. Userspace isn't linux by definition on any* system. That might seem like a pedantic point to make, but I would like to point out that gnu utils aren't required to make a system "Linux", and whether you're using a drop-in replacement like uutils or go a more different route doesn't make it any less "Linux". Android Apps are and mostly always have been restricted to the Java virtual machine (or its modern equivalent) exactly because that makes them portable between sometimes quite different base systems from different vendors. If you insist that makes it less of a Linux system I'd like to know what you think of flatpak apps on top of immutable distros. I hope you agree that, conceptually, they're quite close actually.

zo1 2y ago

I've done a few apps as part of my day job. And my best explanation and/or analogy is government regulations. The store requirements, apis and rules are documented up to the upteenth degree in 49 pages spread across many areas, and unless you're "in the know", you have no way to implement it to a reliable degree. And then all this ends up doing is punishing small / low-budget / low-time developers, leading to consolidation around the big players. The big players can push their weight around to some degree, they get an element of built-in trust, and they have the sheer budget/time to implement all the ridiculous and sometimes onerous requirements. All in all, they're cementing their market position and trying to make "sticky" and invested players that will prop-up the play store for the coming decades.

sdoering 2y ago
This is the best analogy I have yet read. It perfectly sums up my experience.
tbrownaw 2y ago
Regulatory capture for fun and profit!