7 ms·

Are you suggesting that individuals should carry that liability?

izacus 2y ago
The ones that are identified as making decisions leading to death, yes. It's completely normal in other fields where engineers build systems that can kill.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
  Pretty much. Fuck. I just watched higher ups sign off on a project I know for a fact has defects all over the place going into production despite our very explicit: don't do it ( not quite Tesla level consequences, but still resulting in real issues for real people ). The sooner we can start having people in jail for knowingly approving half-baked software, the sooner it will improve.
  - IX-103 2y ago
    Should we require Professional Engineers to sign off on such projects the same way they are required to for other safety critical infrastructure (like bridges and dams)? The Professional Engineer that signed off is liable for defects in the design. (Though, of course, if the design is not followed then liability can shift back to the company that built it)
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
      I hesitate, because I shudder at government deciding which algorithm is best for a given scenario ( because that is effectively is where it would go ). Maybe the distinction is, the moment money changes hands based on product? I am not an engineer, but I have watched clearly bad decisions take place from technical perspective so that a person with title that went to their head and a bonus that is not aligned with right incentives mess things up for us. Maybe some proffesionalization of software engineering is in order.
      - snovv_crash 2y ago
        This isn't a matter of the government saying what you need to do. This is a matter of being held criminally liable if people get hurt.
        A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
        You are only technically correct. And even then, in terms of civics, by having people held criminally liable government is telling you what to do ( or technically not do ). Note that no other body can ( legally ) do it. In fact, false imprisonment is in itself a punishable offense, but I digress.. Now, we could argue over whether that is/should/could/would be the law of the land, but have you considered how it would be enforced? I mean, I can tell you first hand what it looks like, when government gives you a vague law for an industry to figure out and an enforcement agency with a broad mandate. That said, I may have exaggerated a little bit on the algo choice. I was shooting for ghoulish overkill.
        freejazz 2y ago
        > You are only technically correct You clearly have no idea how civil liability works. At all.
        A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
        I am here to learn. You can help me by educating me. I do mean it sincerely. If you think you have a grasp on the subject, I think HN as a whole could benefit from your expertise.
        freejazz 2y ago
        Civil liability isn't determined by the "gov't" it's determined by a jury of your peers. More interesting to me is how you came to the impression that you had any idea what you were talking about to the point you felt justified in making your post.
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  That's liability for defective design, not any time it fails as suggested above.

The ones that are identified as making decisions leading to death, yes. It's completely normal in other fields where engineers build systems that can kill.

A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
Pretty much. Fuck. I just watched higher ups sign off on a project I know for a fact has defects all over the place going into production despite our very explicit: don't do it ( not quite Tesla level consequences, but still resulting in real issues for real people ). The sooner we can start having people in jail for knowingly approving half-baked software, the sooner it will improve.
- IX-103 2y ago
  Should we require Professional Engineers to sign off on such projects the same way they are required to for other safety critical infrastructure (like bridges and dams)? The Professional Engineer that signed off is liable for defects in the design. (Though, of course, if the design is not followed then liability can shift back to the company that built it)
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
    I hesitate, because I shudder at government deciding which algorithm is best for a given scenario ( because that is effectively is where it would go ). Maybe the distinction is, the moment money changes hands based on product? I am not an engineer, but I have watched clearly bad decisions take place from technical perspective so that a person with title that went to their head and a bonus that is not aligned with right incentives mess things up for us. Maybe some proffesionalization of software engineering is in order.
    - snovv_crash 2y ago
      This isn't a matter of the government saying what you need to do. This is a matter of being held criminally liable if people get hurt.
      - A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
        You are only technically correct. And even then, in terms of civics, by having people held criminally liable government is telling you what to do ( or technically not do ). Note that no other body can ( legally ) do it. In fact, false imprisonment is in itself a punishable offense, but I digress.. Now, we could argue over whether that is/should/could/would be the law of the land, but have you considered how it would be enforced? I mean, I can tell you first hand what it looks like, when government gives you a vague law for an industry to figure out and an enforcement agency with a broad mandate. That said, I may have exaggerated a little bit on the algo choice. I was shooting for ghoulish overkill.
        freejazz 2y ago
        > You are only technically correct You clearly have no idea how civil liability works. At all.
        A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
        I am here to learn. You can help me by educating me. I do mean it sincerely. If you think you have a grasp on the subject, I think HN as a whole could benefit from your expertise.
        freejazz 2y ago
        Civil liability isn't determined by the "gov't" it's determined by a jury of your peers. More interesting to me is how you came to the impression that you had any idea what you were talking about to the point you felt justified in making your post.
Dylan16807 2y ago
That's liability for defective design, not any time it fails as suggested above.