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(The submission should have a [2006] in the title) As silly as it sounds to say, the importance of Boatmurdered can't be understated. Boatmurdered was an inter

by kibwen 2y ago

(The submission should have a [2006] in the title) As silly as it sounds to say, the importance of Boatmurdered can't be understated. Boatmurdered was an internet sensation and put Dwarf Fortress on the map; the depth and complexity of the simulation was mind-blowing to read about for the era (and it's still more-or-less unmatched in many ways). Without that there'd be no Infiniminer (and later, no Rimworld, no Factorio), and without that there'd be no Minecraft.

refulgentis 2y ago
TL;DR: Is it possible that it seems to you that Dwarf Fortress was the first game with procedural generation? Full comment: Factorio wouldn't exist with Dwarf Fortress? If this is a claim that Dwarf Fortress paved the way for deep(er) simulation games, enabling Factorio, I don't think that's accurate. I was ~18 in 2006 and a huge fan of simulation games when I was growing up. There were plenty with depth that approximated Factorio. I've never heard of Infiniminer or Rimworld. 5 minute review of Infiniminer shows its a very different game and has a specific triad of inspirations named by the creator, all of which predate Dwarf Fortress. (Team Fortress, Infinifrag, and Motherload) Rimworld is nearly a decade after Dwarf Fortress, so its impossible for me to claim it wouldn't exist without it, and I believe vice versa.
- Philpax 2y ago
  No, their claim is that specific lineage of inspirations led to the games we enjoy today. It is very unlikely that the games would exist in the same form without the innovations and discoveries made along the way.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- ekidd 2y ago
  > Factorio wouldn't exist with Dwarf Fortress? According to Factorio's developers, they were heavily inspired by Minecraft factory mods like IndustrialCraft. Minecraft is commonly said to have been inspired by Infiniminer. I'm not aware of Infinimer being inspired by Dwarf Fortress. RimWorld is basically "Dwarf Fortress on an alien planet", although the simulation doesn't go as ridiculously deep. RimWorld has in turn inspired a bunch of attempts to do "RimWorld on a spaceship," but none of so far have achieved the status of being a "classic".
  - simonw 2y ago
    Minecraft was inspired by both Infiniminer and Dwarf Fortress.
- kozziollek 2y ago
  Notch (the original creator of Minecraft) mentioned he got inspired by DF: > Infiniminer is the main inspiration for the blocky design and the terrain deforming. Dwarf Fortress is the main inspiration for the survival game mode, and this is where I want to take the majority of the gameplay. https://web.archive.org/web/20120126163153/http://notch.tumblr.com/post/113252305/credits-due https://web.archive.org/web/20120126163153/http://notch.tumb... Kovarex (creator of Factorio) mentions Minecraft mod(s): > I always loved minecraft mods like industrial craft, but limitations of minecraft were my motivation to create something on my own. https://forum.industrial-craft.net/thread/8845-factorio/ https://forum.industrial-craft.net/thread/8845-factorio/ and not getting job at Mojang: > I had this great idea to apply for a job at Mojang as working on Minecraft might be very inspiring. I didn't get any reply, and later on, I decided to try to make something on my own. https://web.archive.org/web/20170324040836/https://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/off-topic/general-gaming/459269-they-didnt-want-me-at-mojang-so-i-decided-to-do https://web.archive.org/web/20170324040836/https://www.minec...
  - refulgentis 2y ago
    My curiosity/claim is neither "There are 0 games inspired by Dwarf Fortress" nor "Minecraft was not inspired by Dwarf Fortress" :) Rather, 2 of the 3 specific games named, none of which are Minecraft, seem directly contradicted. I'm curious about the larger idea OP was getting at.
- itsoktocry 2y ago
  >There were plenty with depth that approximated Factorio. Curious if you could name a handful.
  - refulgentis 2y ago
    SimCity, Age of Empires, Sim$X (they really need to rerelease SimAnt), Roller Coaster Tycoon were my gotos, off the top of my head. Railroad Tycoon is probably the best obvious simile but also wasn't my favorite. Too much management :)
    - vintermann 2y ago
      These are management games, not factory games. Crafting games are games where a lot of the gameplay is combining items in particular ways to get new items. Factory games are crafting games where you build raw logic, wires, conveyor belts etc. for automating crafting. Some are pure factory games where automation is the only way to craft anything, others reveal their debt to modded Minecraft by having a player person who does the first crafting by hand. There were arguably factory games evolving alongside Minecraft, in particular Zach Barth's programming/automation puzzle games. But you'd be hard pressed to find a factory game before modded Minecraft. The first game anyone built a working computer in was Dwarf Fortress, although through unintended game mechanisms. I believe this was what inspired Notch to add redstone to Minecraft, the first intended game mechanism for Factory-style gameplay.
      - refulgentis 2y ago
        [flagged]
beng-nl 2y ago
Nitpick, but I think you mean “can’t be overstated” - no matter how important you state the thing to be, it’s not overstated, because the thing is just that important. Hence, can’t be overstated.
- sshine 2y ago
  Maybe he meant "mustn't be understated", so "can't" as in "mustn't". Not to argue about idioms, what you say is right.
  - rrssh 2y ago
    Then it sounds authoritarian, "we'll have a beef if I hear you understated boutmurdered"
- kibwen 2y ago
  Listen, my capacity for malapropisms can't be understated.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- Fuzzwah 2y ago
  Similar to "I could care less".
  - suprjami 2y ago
    This saying really grinds my gears. How did "couldn't" become "could"? It inverts the whole meaning of the statement.
    - Supermancho 2y ago
      > How did "couldn't" become "could" Sarcasm and Laziness are at least 2 reasons people might modify it. The second carries it through time.
hinkley 2y ago
I tried to get into dwarf fortress, but always went back to Rimworld occasionally and mostly Oxygen Not Included.
- shepherdjerred 2y ago
  I love the setting of Rimworld but cannot get past how dumb the pawns are. As in, it requires so much human micromanagement to make sure they occasionally clean, haul, and tend to the guy who is 1h away from dying rather than the one who has an scratch
- KyleBerezin 2y ago
  I have the opposite problem. I want to play Rimworld, and it IS fun, but I always want more. Rimworld feels too basic and I find myself craving the complexity of DF instead. Ultimately I decide not to dive back into DF and I end up enjoying neither. Oxygen Not Include is great though.
  - hinkley 2y ago
    Rimworld makes war crimes a little too easy. And as the other person said, the AI is bad. Though personally I think it’s bad in all three. Self preservation and the lack of it requires a lot of reloading from save points.
- ultimafan 2y ago
  I had a blast with Rimworld. Still play it occasionally for the "Dwarf Fortress but sci-fi" urge it fulfills. But in the long run when trying to do a huge generational colony I can't stand how "gamey" it feels. Maybe there's some mod or something to fix it, I'm not sure. But the raids/diseases/bad events feel like they're more targeted for lack of a better way to put it, like the game is intentionally tailoring them to your situation vs just simulating a world where those things tend to happen. DF's "events" feel more natural over the long run.
29athrowaway 2y ago
Gnomoria is also another one. Prison Architect came before Rimworld and was somewhat of an inspiration for that game too.

by kibwen 2y ago

refulgentis 2y ago

TL;DR: Is it possible that it seems to you that Dwarf Fortress was the first game with procedural generation? Full comment: Factorio wouldn't exist with Dwarf Fortress? If this is a claim that Dwarf Fortress paved the way for deep(er) simulation games, enabling Factorio, I don't think that's accurate. I was ~18 in 2006 and a huge fan of simulation games when I was growing up. There were plenty with depth that approximated Factorio. I've never heard of Infiniminer or Rimworld. 5 minute review of Infiniminer shows its a very different game and has a specific triad of inspirations named by the creator, all of which predate Dwarf Fortress. (Team Fortress, Infinifrag, and Motherload) Rimworld is nearly a decade after Dwarf Fortress, so its impossible for me to claim it wouldn't exist without it, and I believe vice versa.

Philpax 2y ago
No, their claim is that specific lineage of inspirations led to the games we enjoy today. It is very unlikely that the games would exist in the same form without the innovations and discoveries made along the way.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
ekidd 2y ago
> Factorio wouldn't exist with Dwarf Fortress? According to Factorio's developers, they were heavily inspired by Minecraft factory mods like IndustrialCraft. Minecraft is commonly said to have been inspired by Infiniminer. I'm not aware of Infinimer being inspired by Dwarf Fortress. RimWorld is basically "Dwarf Fortress on an alien planet", although the simulation doesn't go as ridiculously deep. RimWorld has in turn inspired a bunch of attempts to do "RimWorld on a spaceship," but none of so far have achieved the status of being a "classic".
- simonw 2y ago
  Minecraft was inspired by both Infiniminer and Dwarf Fortress.
kozziollek 2y ago
Notch (the original creator of Minecraft) mentioned he got inspired by DF: > Infiniminer is the main inspiration for the blocky design and the terrain deforming. Dwarf Fortress is the main inspiration for the survival game mode, and this is where I want to take the majority of the gameplay. https://web.archive.org/web/20120126163153/http://notch.tumblr.com/post/113252305/credits-due https://web.archive.org/web/20120126163153/http://notch.tumb... Kovarex (creator of Factorio) mentions Minecraft mod(s): > I always loved minecraft mods like industrial craft, but limitations of minecraft were my motivation to create something on my own. https://forum.industrial-craft.net/thread/8845-factorio/ https://forum.industrial-craft.net/thread/8845-factorio/ and not getting job at Mojang: > I had this great idea to apply for a job at Mojang as working on Minecraft might be very inspiring. I didn't get any reply, and later on, I decided to try to make something on my own. https://web.archive.org/web/20170324040836/https://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/off-topic/general-gaming/459269-they-didnt-want-me-at-mojang-so-i-decided-to-do https://web.archive.org/web/20170324040836/https://www.minec...
- refulgentis 2y ago
  My curiosity/claim is neither "There are 0 games inspired by Dwarf Fortress" nor "Minecraft was not inspired by Dwarf Fortress" :) Rather, 2 of the 3 specific games named, none of which are Minecraft, seem directly contradicted. I'm curious about the larger idea OP was getting at.
itsoktocry 2y ago
>There were plenty with depth that approximated Factorio. Curious if you could name a handful.
- refulgentis 2y ago
  SimCity, Age of Empires, Sim$X (they really need to rerelease SimAnt), Roller Coaster Tycoon were my gotos, off the top of my head. Railroad Tycoon is probably the best obvious simile but also wasn't my favorite. Too much management :)
  - vintermann 2y ago
    These are management games, not factory games. Crafting games are games where a lot of the gameplay is combining items in particular ways to get new items. Factory games are crafting games where you build raw logic, wires, conveyor belts etc. for automating crafting. Some are pure factory games where automation is the only way to craft anything, others reveal their debt to modded Minecraft by having a player person who does the first crafting by hand. There were arguably factory games evolving alongside Minecraft, in particular Zach Barth's programming/automation puzzle games. But you'd be hard pressed to find a factory game before modded Minecraft. The first game anyone built a working computer in was Dwarf Fortress, although through unintended game mechanisms. I believe this was what inspired Notch to add redstone to Minecraft, the first intended game mechanism for Factory-style gameplay.
    - refulgentis 2y ago
      [flagged]

beng-nl 2y ago

Nitpick, but I think you mean “can’t be overstated” - no matter how important you state the thing to be, it’s not overstated, because the thing is just that important. Hence, can’t be overstated.

sshine 2y ago
Maybe he meant "mustn't be understated", so "can't" as in "mustn't". Not to argue about idioms, what you say is right.
- rrssh 2y ago
  Then it sounds authoritarian, "we'll have a beef if I hear you understated boutmurdered"
kibwen 2y ago
Listen, my capacity for malapropisms can't be understated.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
Fuzzwah 2y ago
Similar to "I could care less".
- suprjami 2y ago
  This saying really grinds my gears. How did "couldn't" become "could"? It inverts the whole meaning of the statement.
  - Supermancho 2y ago
    > How did "couldn't" become "could" Sarcasm and Laziness are at least 2 reasons people might modify it. The second carries it through time.

hinkley 2y ago

I tried to get into dwarf fortress, but always went back to Rimworld occasionally and mostly Oxygen Not Included.

shepherdjerred 2y ago
I love the setting of Rimworld but cannot get past how dumb the pawns are. As in, it requires so much human micromanagement to make sure they occasionally clean, haul, and tend to the guy who is 1h away from dying rather than the one who has an scratch
KyleBerezin 2y ago
I have the opposite problem. I want to play Rimworld, and it IS fun, but I always want more. Rimworld feels too basic and I find myself craving the complexity of DF instead. Ultimately I decide not to dive back into DF and I end up enjoying neither. Oxygen Not Include is great though.
- hinkley 2y ago
  Rimworld makes war crimes a little too easy. And as the other person said, the AI is bad. Though personally I think it’s bad in all three. Self preservation and the lack of it requires a lot of reloading from save points.
ultimafan 2y ago
I had a blast with Rimworld. Still play it occasionally for the "Dwarf Fortress but sci-fi" urge it fulfills. But in the long run when trying to do a huge generational colony I can't stand how "gamey" it feels. Maybe there's some mod or something to fix it, I'm not sure. But the raids/diseases/bad events feel like they're more targeted for lack of a better way to put it, like the game is intentionally tailoring them to your situation vs just simulating a world where those things tend to happen. DF's "events" feel more natural over the long run.

29athrowaway 2y ago

Gnomoria is also another one. Prison Architect came before Rimworld and was somewhat of an inspiration for that game too.