6 ms·

I wonder if anyone at Microsoft is starting to have an inkling of realization that ARM is not what makes the Mac good.

nightski 2y ago
You are right, it's the terrible docker experience that really seals the deal. Or the fact that to run Linux you have to rely on a small group that is trying to will it into existence without any support from Apple.
- entropicdrifter 2y ago
  And next to no support from upstream kernel devs
- Topfi 2y ago
  What exactly is MSFT doing for Linux support on Snapdragon Elite X machines?
  - entropicdrifter 2y ago
    Qualcomm is merging patches into the upstream kernel directly
    - Topfi 2y ago
      To quote OP: > I wonder if anyone at Microsoft [...] Qualcomms, as far as I can tell, imperfect [0] efforts are independent of this discussion. [0] https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-Disabling-X-Elite-GPU https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-Disabling-X-Elite-GPU
      - entropicdrifter 2y ago
        Right, I know, I guess my point was that MS doesn't need to do anything directly since Qualcomm and the various device manufacturers are contributing instead. They were asking what MSFT was doing in response to the previous commenter talking about how Apple is doing nothing to help with Linux support. Apple is both the OS maker and the device manufacturer in that case. In the case of the Snapdragon chips, the manufacturers are upstreaming support into the mainline kernel.
- Wytwwww 2y ago
  > Or the fact that to run Linux Most people don't care about that (if you look at it the other way around running macOS on PCs these days isn't that easy either and it will only get worse). Just don't get a Mac if you want to use Linux? Docker is pretty painful certainly, though. Windows seem like a much better option if need to develop for Linux.
  - adastra22 2y ago
    Asahi Linux is pretty nice though.
- achierius 2y ago
  Isn't the fact that people use mac despite all that testament to the fact that there's a good reason they're doing so? Like it or not, Apple hardware is top-notch, it integrates well with the software, and it's hard to get both anywhere else.
  - bigstrat2003 2y ago
    As always, it's a testament to the power of Apple marketing rather than the product itself. Apple has never been anything special compared to its competitors.
    - spiderice 2y ago
      Comments like this are a way to instantly kill your credibility. Let's go back to 2012 and compare laptop trackpads and then see if we can pretend that your comment isn't hyperbole.
      - bitsandboots 2y ago
        Not that I agree with them, but you gave a really bad example. Typing this from an M1 MBP and I would take any laptop trackpad I've ever had over it, even pre 2012. Because this thing is inferior at basic tasks like dragging or shifting from right to left click. Partially because it lacks no physical mouse buttons, and partially because it's implementation of such a scheme is just worse than every other laptop I've had. The laptop begs for a standalone mouse, but Apple in its infinite practically did not include a USB A port for the purpose, further complicating life.
      - seba_dos1 2y ago
        As someone who really cares about a good trackpad and owns a Magic Trackpad 2, I never understood people who put Apple ones on pedestal. It's macOS that had good trackpad handling sooner than other OSes/DEs; their hardware was always comparable to other laptops from the same class. The only thing they actually differentiated in was haptic feedback, and it's mostly just a gimmick unless you happen to care about making tactile clicks as quiet as possible. Sure, if you bought some shitty cheap laptop you got a shitty cheap trackpad on it, but that's hardly surprising.
- andrewaylett 2y ago
  They have much more support than that. Apple may not be willing to provide direct assistance (and I wish they would) but they have designed the system such that it's not locked down nearly as much as an iOS device. To the point that on ARM64, one may add a second OS without losing system integrity on one's primary OS.
- alibert 2y ago
  Docker on macOS doesn't have the same underlying system support as on Linux, which is where Docker originated. The Docker experience on macOS is also marred by the fact that Docker Inc. appears to have limited interest in their Docker Desktop offering, whereas a third-party alternative like Orbstack provides a much better experience.
bee_rider 2y ago
I mean, as the other member of the Wintel ecosystem, they have to believe Intel is wholly to blame for it failing apart, right? Evidence be damned. Dang Intel CPUs, terrible battery performance when paired with an OS that just randomly cranks the CPU up every couple seconds for no user-serving reason.
- Miraste 2y ago
  Let's be fair here, Intel CPUs have terrible battery life under every OS.
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    Eh, play around with powertop a bit, things aren’t so bad in Linux.
    - Miraste 2y ago
      That can get it to be okay, if you put some effort in and get lucky with the manufacturer, but it's still worse than basically anything else that's modern and supports Linux.
      - bee_rider 2y ago
        On my system looking at it right now, I only see wireless consuming much power. Everything else is below 100mW. I can’t really blame x86 for the wireless power consumption (maybe Intel more generally though).
    - acdha 2y ago
      Possibly, but how much time do you need to spend getting closer to the out of the box macOS experience? If it’s more than an hour or so you’re paying more to have an involuntary hobby.
      - bee_rider 2y ago
        That seems sort of beside the point. The existence of not-power-hungry Linux installs indicates that there’s something Microsoft could do about the problem. For me, I like a convertible laptop which I cannot buy from Apple for any amount of money as far as I know. If I could have gotten a fully unlocked iPad I probably would have gone for that, but they don’t seem to exist. Yet, at least! Here’s hoping. It actually would be nice if Microsoft would figure out their part of the mess, because that would give people the ability to trade money for battery life.
bhouston 2y ago
Apple's custom ARM chips is definitely one of the things that does make Apple better. Low power, low/no noise, and high performance.
- jeffbee 2y ago
  Your sentence makes as much, arguably more sense if you erase the word "ARM".
  - astrange 2y ago
    ARMv8 was developed in order to make those chips. Something else could work but wouldn't be as good.
  - hyperbrainer 2y ago
    the ARM chips are, to a large extent, what enable that.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - School-Cotton 2y ago
      Why does it matter what instruction set the chips support? The main difference between x86 and ARM is that x86 is slightly harder to decode because instructions can be variable-width. But I have never heard of instruction decoding complexity being a particularly important bottleneck.
      - DonHopkins 2y ago
        You've never had to rub a bag of frozen peas all over the bottom of your x86 Macbook Pro because it was overheating and you had an imminent zoom meeting you could not miss.
        acdha 2y ago
eddieroger 2y ago
Not /exclusively/ ARM, but having their own silicon is helping more than hurting. Personally, and along the lines I think you're getting at, I think Microsoft is in a weird spot of trying to hold on to legacy compatibility for longer than they should and taking some UI gambles that aren't paying off ("again", if you count Windows Phone). Maybe their own chips would help, but that alone isn't the dealbreaker.
westtan 2y ago
Although ARM brings better performance and battery life to Mac, without the support of the software ecosystem and Apple's deep integration of hardware and software, ARM architecture alone is not enough to make Mac stand out. Recently, Docker was exposed to many bugs with Arm64
rty32 2y ago
There is some truth in that -- if x86 can achieve the same battery life and heat management as Apple silicon, barely anyone would care about ARM for Windows/Linux. AMD has made leaps in CPU efficiency in recent years, but that was still not enough. Your uncle probably couldn't understand or care about x86 or ARM. They want a performant, fanless laptop with long battery life, and it seems that such a (mainstream) laptop still does not exist in the Windows world.

You are right, it's the terrible docker experience that really seals the deal. Or the fact that to run Linux you have to rely on a small group that is trying to will it into existence without any support from Apple.

entropicdrifter 2y ago
And next to no support from upstream kernel devs
Topfi 2y ago
What exactly is MSFT doing for Linux support on Snapdragon Elite X machines?
- entropicdrifter 2y ago
  Qualcomm is merging patches into the upstream kernel directly
  - Topfi 2y ago
    To quote OP: > I wonder if anyone at Microsoft [...] Qualcomms, as far as I can tell, imperfect [0] efforts are independent of this discussion. [0] https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-Disabling-X-Elite-GPU https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-Disabling-X-Elite-GPU
    - entropicdrifter 2y ago
      Right, I know, I guess my point was that MS doesn't need to do anything directly since Qualcomm and the various device manufacturers are contributing instead. They were asking what MSFT was doing in response to the previous commenter talking about how Apple is doing nothing to help with Linux support. Apple is both the OS maker and the device manufacturer in that case. In the case of the Snapdragon chips, the manufacturers are upstreaming support into the mainline kernel.
Wytwwww 2y ago
> Or the fact that to run Linux Most people don't care about that (if you look at it the other way around running macOS on PCs these days isn't that easy either and it will only get worse). Just don't get a Mac if you want to use Linux? Docker is pretty painful certainly, though. Windows seem like a much better option if need to develop for Linux.
- adastra22 2y ago
  Asahi Linux is pretty nice though.
achierius 2y ago
Isn't the fact that people use mac despite all that testament to the fact that there's a good reason they're doing so? Like it or not, Apple hardware is top-notch, it integrates well with the software, and it's hard to get both anywhere else.
- bigstrat2003 2y ago
  As always, it's a testament to the power of Apple marketing rather than the product itself. Apple has never been anything special compared to its competitors.
  - spiderice 2y ago
    Comments like this are a way to instantly kill your credibility. Let's go back to 2012 and compare laptop trackpads and then see if we can pretend that your comment isn't hyperbole.
    - bitsandboots 2y ago
      Not that I agree with them, but you gave a really bad example. Typing this from an M1 MBP and I would take any laptop trackpad I've ever had over it, even pre 2012. Because this thing is inferior at basic tasks like dragging or shifting from right to left click. Partially because it lacks no physical mouse buttons, and partially because it's implementation of such a scheme is just worse than every other laptop I've had. The laptop begs for a standalone mouse, but Apple in its infinite practically did not include a USB A port for the purpose, further complicating life.
    - seba_dos1 2y ago
      As someone who really cares about a good trackpad and owns a Magic Trackpad 2, I never understood people who put Apple ones on pedestal. It's macOS that had good trackpad handling sooner than other OSes/DEs; their hardware was always comparable to other laptops from the same class. The only thing they actually differentiated in was haptic feedback, and it's mostly just a gimmick unless you happen to care about making tactile clicks as quiet as possible. Sure, if you bought some shitty cheap laptop you got a shitty cheap trackpad on it, but that's hardly surprising.
andrewaylett 2y ago
They have much more support than that. Apple may not be willing to provide direct assistance (and I wish they would) but they have designed the system such that it's not locked down nearly as much as an iOS device. To the point that on ARM64, one may add a second OS without losing system integrity on one's primary OS.
alibert 2y ago
Docker on macOS doesn't have the same underlying system support as on Linux, which is where Docker originated. The Docker experience on macOS is also marred by the fact that Docker Inc. appears to have limited interest in their Docker Desktop offering, whereas a third-party alternative like Orbstack provides a much better experience.

bee_rider 2y ago

I mean, as the other member of the Wintel ecosystem, they have to believe Intel is wholly to blame for it failing apart, right? Evidence be damned. Dang Intel CPUs, terrible battery performance when paired with an OS that just randomly cranks the CPU up every couple seconds for no user-serving reason.

Miraste 2y ago
Let's be fair here, Intel CPUs have terrible battery life under every OS.
- bee_rider 2y ago
  Eh, play around with powertop a bit, things aren’t so bad in Linux.
  - Miraste 2y ago
    That can get it to be okay, if you put some effort in and get lucky with the manufacturer, but it's still worse than basically anything else that's modern and supports Linux.
    - bee_rider 2y ago
      On my system looking at it right now, I only see wireless consuming much power. Everything else is below 100mW. I can’t really blame x86 for the wireless power consumption (maybe Intel more generally though).
  - acdha 2y ago
    Possibly, but how much time do you need to spend getting closer to the out of the box macOS experience? If it’s more than an hour or so you’re paying more to have an involuntary hobby.
    - bee_rider 2y ago
      That seems sort of beside the point. The existence of not-power-hungry Linux installs indicates that there’s something Microsoft could do about the problem. For me, I like a convertible laptop which I cannot buy from Apple for any amount of money as far as I know. If I could have gotten a fully unlocked iPad I probably would have gone for that, but they don’t seem to exist. Yet, at least! Here’s hoping. It actually would be nice if Microsoft would figure out their part of the mess, because that would give people the ability to trade money for battery life.

bhouston 2y ago

Apple's custom ARM chips is definitely one of the things that does make Apple better. Low power, low/no noise, and high performance.

jeffbee 2y ago
Your sentence makes as much, arguably more sense if you erase the word "ARM".
- astrange 2y ago
  ARMv8 was developed in order to make those chips. Something else could work but wouldn't be as good.
- hyperbrainer 2y ago
  the ARM chips are, to a large extent, what enable that.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - School-Cotton 2y ago
    Why does it matter what instruction set the chips support? The main difference between x86 and ARM is that x86 is slightly harder to decode because instructions can be variable-width. But I have never heard of instruction decoding complexity being a particularly important bottleneck.
    - DonHopkins 2y ago
      You've never had to rub a bag of frozen peas all over the bottom of your x86 Macbook Pro because it was overheating and you had an imminent zoom meeting you could not miss.
      - acdha 2y ago

eddieroger 2y ago

Not /exclusively/ ARM, but having their own silicon is helping more than hurting. Personally, and along the lines I think you're getting at, I think Microsoft is in a weird spot of trying to hold on to legacy compatibility for longer than they should and taking some UI gambles that aren't paying off ("again", if you count Windows Phone). Maybe their own chips would help, but that alone isn't the dealbreaker.

westtan 2y ago

Although ARM brings better performance and battery life to Mac, without the support of the software ecosystem and Apple's deep integration of hardware and software, ARM architecture alone is not enough to make Mac stand out. Recently, Docker was exposed to many bugs with Arm64

rty32 2y ago

There is some truth in that -- if x86 can achieve the same battery life and heat management as Apple silicon, barely anyone would care about ARM for Windows/Linux. AMD has made leaps in CPU efficiency in recent years, but that was still not enough. Your uncle probably couldn't understand or care about x86 or ARM. They want a performant, fanless laptop with long battery life, and it seems that such a (mainstream) laptop still does not exist in the Windows world.