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Qualcomm cancels Snapdragon Dev Kit, refunds all orders
- zoezoezoezoe 2y agoso much for the windows on arm 'revolution'.
- icepat 2y agoThe revolution will not be in the Microsoft Store.
- zoezoezoezoe 2y agoI dont even think it will be on windows ;)
- candiddevmike 2y agoYear of Windows on ARM is the new Year of the Linux Desktop. (This comment was submitted on an ARM-based Linux Desktop)
- pulse7 2y agoWhich ARM-based Linux Desktop are you using? :)
- candiddevmike 2y agoAndroid, of course
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y agoWhat desktop runs Android?
- betaby 2y agoChromeOS
- immibis 2y agoThis comment was submitted on a PineTab 2 that's kind of configured as a desktop layout, (with external keyboard and mouse), so that counts, right? If you want a review: it's fine if your goal is to just experiment with an ARM machine or a Linux tablet, but GUI apps are pretty slow. If you switch to a console VT it's fine. I haven't tried any benchmarks but I don't imagine they'll get a very good score at all.
- fredgrott 2y agoWindows on ARM is the same year Tesla has FSD...50 years from now judging by Elon's own tweeting stating that exact detail.....
- jsheard 2y ago2012-2013 - Microsoft partners with Nvidia to launch Windows ARM 2019-2020 - Microsoft partners with Qualcomm to launch Windows ARM... again 2024-???? - Microsoft partners with Qualcomm... again, to launch Windows ARM... again Fourth times the charm?
- Dalewyn 2y agoWin32 slays yet another would-be challenger. Again. Like every single challenger that has come before. Perhaps it is prudent to not challenge Win32.
- RyJones 2y agoI was on the Qualcomm side of the Windows 8 experience. It was terrible, not a good partnership. I have long, boring stories about the previous (to this) WoA attempt. And the one before that.
- raverbashing 2y agoWintel vendors must be feeling like the airlines that invested too much on Boeing Now Windows 11 feels as exciting as sponge cake and nobody cares too much about PCs anymore
- Y_Y 2y agoI've actually enjoyed a couple of good sponge cakes. On the other hand Windows 11 is determined to upset my workday and get in the way of doing my job. It's so bad that my employer, a very large US SaaS provider and diehard Microsoft shop, is starting to put Ubuntu on our laptops because of the constant headaches.
- adastra22 2y agoI use windows on ARM on a daily basis… running from a VMware image on macOS on Apple hardware. I would love to have a native booted windows ARM device, but…
- mrweasel 2y agoAs others point out, pretty much all interest seems to have come from Linux developers, or people who'd like an alternative to x86 as their (Linux) desktop. It should be pretty clear by now that most Windows developers do not care about ARM. It's not that I think they are dismissive of the platform, but they are waiting for Microsoft, Dell and Lenovo to deliver a finished product. They aren't going to spend time on yet another failed Microsoft hardware experiment. Windows developers aren't going to switch to ARM in large numbers until Microsoft and partners can deliver a platform with a decade or two of longevity. They are completely accustom to Microsoft preserving backwards compatibility and they'll expect the same to be turn for a architecture switch.
- kyriakos 2y agoReally its not about how long MS will support the platform but the fact that there is really no reason for Windows developers to support ARM. Current x86 laptop CPUs are way faster than Snapdragon and are not that far behind in battery life.
- rty32 2y agoMy theory -- linux arm is a real alternative to linux x86 and everyone involved knows that they are doing. Windows in Arm, at this moment, only causes confusion to product lines and branding, for both device manufacturers and consumers. By comparison, it is a hard switch for MacBooks (not releasing new x86 and arm computers at the same time), and I don't think Apple even mentions ARM that much -- they just keep saying "Apple silicon", which sounds stupid to developers but is good marketing.
- 999900000999 2y agoApple also controls the whole OSX world. They effectively said new Macs will be arm. If you want to develop for OSX it better be ARM compatibility . Microsoft has a chicken and egg problem. Why would I port even my games to Windows ARM when the vast majority of users will be on x64 anyway. Windows ARM isn't much more efficient when running a x64 binary anyway. You have strange comparability issues. This is less of an issue with Linux since we can ultimately recompile our own software. But as mentioned above, Qualcomm doesn't feel like supporting Linux, at least not well enough for it to be usable. Honestly Microsoft( or another OEM) needs to ship a dual boot ARM laptop. The 12th of never when they happens these laptops will sell well. As is they're effectively on clearance. A 3 month year old laptop already 30% to 40% off.
- jpalomaki 2y agoI was excited during the summer, but now Intel's Lunar Lake is ruining the show. Seems to be Intel is able to match (or offer better) battery life and performance. If this the case, I don't see much point in picking Arm for Windows. And unlike with Apple, on Windows the x86 won't go away. So there's two architectures that need to be supported. And I'm not so sure everybody is interested to put the effort for Arm.
- jeffbee 2y agoI wonder if anyone at Microsoft is starting to have an inkling of realization that ARM is not what makes the Mac good.
- nightski 2y agoYou are right, it's the terrible docker experience that really seals the deal. Or the fact that to run Linux you have to rely on a small group that is trying to will it into existence without any support from Apple.
- entropicdrifter 2y agoAnd next to no support from upstream kernel devs
- Topfi 2y agoWhat exactly is MSFT doing for Linux support on Snapdragon Elite X machines?
- entropicdrifter 2y agoQualcomm is merging patches into the upstream kernel directly
- Topfi 2y agoTo quote OP: > I wonder if anyone at Microsoft [...] Qualcomms, as far as I can tell, imperfect [0] efforts are independent of this discussion. [0] https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-Disabling-X-Elite-GPU https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-Disabling-X-Elite-GPU
- entropicdrifter 2y agoRight, I know, I guess my point was that MS doesn't need to do anything directly since Qualcomm and the various device manufacturers are contributing instead. They were asking what MSFT was doing in response to the previous commenter talking about how Apple is doing nothing to help with Linux support. Apple is both the OS maker and the device manufacturer in that case. In the case of the Snapdragon chips, the manufacturers are upstreaming support into the mainline kernel.
- nixosbestos 2y agoServes Qualcomm right for front-loading so much Windows support and not engaging with the Linux community sooner. Every single person I've seen express interest in this device, wants it for Linux (dev or to try as a daily driver).
- 999900000999 2y agoThose are my thoughts exactly! I was going to buy this day 1, then I found out Linux support wasn't ready and I went with a new AMD 365 laptop instead. This was it's own adventure, with Ubuntu not working out of the box, so I had to go with a rolling release distro. It's been months and I think Ubuntu might boot on the Thinkpad 14s. It's definitely not supported as a daily driver, or on any other hardware.
- entropicdrifter 2y agoUbuntu released a special version for the SXE chip that specifically listed the Thinkpad 14s as the best-supported PC with the chip.
- dman 2y agoIf you are playing your cards right, its best to be on mainline kernels and in the stock non-lts release by default in most distros.
- jsheard 2y agoIt seems like the development of this thing was a shitshow, the version they ended up shipping (very late) has an unpopulated HDMI port and comes with a USB-C to HDMI dongle instead, and has no FCC certifications. The main HDMI encoder was so broken that they couldn't salvage it, and their last resort was to ship a half baked prototype.
- tiahura 2y agoSad. It was reported that MS was contractually committed to Qualcomm for 5-7 years as of '16, so I would imagine this is the end of the road. Windows on ARM works on the RPi4. I would have to think other ARM license holders could match whatever x86 emu optimizations Qualcomm had come up with without too much trouble, and MS may even get a license to continue to use them? I'm looking forward to learn what MS's future plans are.
- wtallis 2y agoThis isn't a cancellation of Qualcomm's Snapdragon chips for laptops, just a cancellation of their FUBARed dev kit that was already delayed to the point that the only reason for them to keep trying to ship it was save face.
- SG- 2y agothis is just about the dev kit they tried to make themselves. turns out there's expertise needed to make, ship and support and actual entire system.
- kyriakos 2y agolooks like they should get someone like asus to build / distribute it for them.
- rty32 2y agoThis is probably a money losing business for the unit. Qualcomm needs to pay manufacturers a lot of money to get it going. I am not sure Qualcomm cares enough about that.
- kyriakos 2y agoIt wouldn't be marketed as a devkit. It would be sold the same way nuc and mini PCs are sold. There is a market for them.
- conradev 2y agoI missed the boat on the dev kit, but I picked up a Galaxy Book4 Edge 14” for $800 at Best Buy ($550 off!) It’s not the top-line SoC, but for the same price as the DevKit it comes with a free battery and AMOLED screen: https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-galaxy-book4-edge-copilot-pc-14-amoled-touch-screen-laptop-snapdragon-x-elite-3-4ghz-16gb-memory-512gb-storage-sapphire-blue/6583789.p https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-galaxy-book4-edge-copil... It has OpenBSD support in 7.6, and there is a devicetree patch floating around for Linux.
- entropicdrifter 2y agoI think that one has the best screen of the whole batch of the new Snapdragon laptops, too. That's a sick deal
- conradev 2y agoI didn’t fully know what I was getting into when I got it, but it honestly puts the MacBook Pro screen to shame
- kennethrc 2y agoIt's still $800 ... OK, I need someone to talk me out of it (esp. as the last thing I need is Yet Another Tinkering Sinkhole :) ) But have you encountered any serious issues so far (I expect to put Linux on it, and I build my own kernels).
- Joel_Mckay 2y agoCould get a pi5 if you want to play with ARM. The documentation and well maintained kernel are kinder to new devs. =)
- kennethrc 2y agoI play with ARM in the Day Jobs but the full laptop form-factor is really appealing
- user070223 2y agoHope it's not realted to ARM vs Qualcomm legal dispute
- SG- 2y agono, it's just incompetence and overpromising on a product and them deciding to pull it since it's making them look bad and way too late to mater at this point anyways.
- renewiltord 2y agoYou can't just go about copying everything Apple does to create the Apple magic. I think the last non-Apple innovation in the space was the netbook from Asus - and that was a completely independent market. Maybe the microPCs/NUCs as well. Oh, Framework's modular laptops for sure. But each of the copy-Apple things aren't that good. When Apple copies, the product is approached from the top. When these guys copy, the product is approached from the bottom. I suppose that's because of strong brand value allowing for higher pricing allowing for premium pricing in the former case.
- acdha 2y agoIt’s usually not even higher pricing. The difference is that Apple is one company whereas if I buy a Dell there are least 4 companies involved with conflicting incentives and extra overhead. If MacBooks crash when waking from sleep, nobody at Apple can try to shirk responsibility to Microsoft, Intel, or the BIOS vendor.
- cesarb 2y ago> I think the last non-Apple innovation in the space was the netbook from Asus [...] Maybe the microPCs/NUCs as well. Oh, Framework's modular laptops for sure. There's also the Steam Deck, which introduced a completely new PC form factor.
- renewiltord 2y agoOh that's a big one. Looks like there have been quite a few in the space actually.
- andrewmcwatters 2y agoMicrosoft doesn't even care about Windows, why would they care about what architecture it ran on?
- nextworddev 2y agoThey got bamboozled by the AI PC thing from Microsofr
- mouse_ 2y agoSidenote: While Qualcomm is focusing on Windows, recent Exynos chips use RDNA2 architecture graphics, which ought to work in Linux AND Windows with a few minor patches. Samsung has also been extremely faithful about keeping bootloaders unlocked on Exynos devices. My bets are on Exynos laptops.
- almatabata 2y agoGenuinely curious how they could not get a linux version running. If they can release a working android version for their other SoCs, what stops them from releasing a working Linux distro? I know they have tons of proprietary blobs but I suspect they could still just deliver a linux ISO with all the binaries included. It just smells like someone at Qualcomm did not see the value and cut the budget to the bone. I had my fears around long term software support of those chips. This news makes me even less confident that I trust them to support these chips long term.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago>It just smells like someone at Qualcomm did not see the value and cut the budget to the bone That's been the theme of the last two years. Qualcomm laid off 1200 last year and a few hundred last month (and I'm sure there's been more if I look deeper), so it's not doing anything special compared to the rest of the industry.
- jauntywundrkind 2y agoWild how hyperscalers have such great success with arm. But it's Ampere & literally no one else (Apple within their fief) whose made even a somewhat viable pass at medium/large size computing. Arm, the architecture that forever remains inaccessible. It's been well over a decade since AMD announced project Seattle, an ARM chip, which took many years to eventually make the A1100 Opteron which was still basically u purchaseable & slow. ARM is just endless quagmires & failures. I don't know what it is with this microarchitecture being so ubiquitous yet so failing to come to market again and again and again.
- bitsandboots 2y agoI bet this has less to do with ARM and more to do with it not being x86. Given as much time, what will we have to say about RISCV? And what of the legacy of MIPS? Not-x86 chips keep grabbing headlines because it's exciting to think of what competition could look like. But then none of them do the hard work to make an entire platform/ecosystem that would be required to make a compelling product that has an upgrade path as x86 was destined to be from the beginning. Well, RPI hasn't done bad though. Unless these other technologies standardize, x86 can't expect much competition in existing markets. I guess Android was an exception in that phones were already a market of throwaway garbage devices so there was no expectation that good support would occur.
- snvzz 2y ago>But then none of them do the hard work to make an entire platform/ecosystem that would be required to make a compelling product RISC-V has. Boot and platform efforts have been very active since even before the base unprivileged spec was ratified. Besides SBI (which is very successful and in widespread use), the specs for UEFI and ACPI are done, and we've seen implementations as well. And all of this done before widespread deployment of application processors, which is imminent now.
- apatheticonion 2y agoHey Microsoft... Are you okay?
- snvzz 2y agoLet's skip ARM and go straight to RISC-V.
- daviddever23box 2y agoI received one yesterday with what appears to be older firmware (i.e., no option for use of an external display with WinPE) and a newer image. As is the case with nearly any Windows device I receive, I booted into Windows Audit Mode and exported all of the installed drivers to a thumbdrive. That is when the fun began...the device failed to OOBE correctly, the restore image provided by Qualcomm doesn't work, and there's no display. Various workarounds with custom Windows arm64 images are fruitless, and there's no UEFI BIOS updater that would allow one to restore it to a known good state. ThunderSoft (Qualcomm's partner in Thundercomm) has utterly failed to deliver a reliable working solution with the most basic Windows functionality, which makes me wonder if there is another factor at hand here. There are smaller, less-well-funded companies that can get these types of products built and shipped. AND - the fact that they're issuing refunds for these devices (at least Arrow Electronics here in the States) REALLY makes me wonder.