5 ms·

It would really help encourage tourism into the USA if the USA didn't levy a freaking tax on entering the USA to subsidize the ailing Florida tourism industry.

by cstross 14y ago

It would really help encourage tourism into the USA if the USA didn't levy a freaking tax on entering the USA to subsidize the ailing Florida tourism industry. (Source: http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/us-tourism-security.5tl/ http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/us-tourism-security.5tl/ ) Which is ailing because the process of entering the USA today, if you're a foreigner (like me) is marginally less friendly than entering the USSR in the mid-1980s. (This is not a knock on the USA, it's a knock on the immigration/border control process. Which sucks. Horribly.)

nohat 14y ago
Charging a fee for entry is definitely not conducive for tourism, but how is it a subsidy to Florida? The article I read says it will be used to advertise, and pay for administrative costs.
- rocky1138 14y ago
  I don't have a problem charging a menial fee to tourists, so long as it's completely transparent where that money is going. The last thing a country should wish on its image is the tourist money going to military invasions and the like.
yequalsx 14y ago
I think the only way the TSA and ICE become more humane organizations is if people stop visiting the U.S. Please don't come here! There are many other nice places to visit that don't treat visitors with the disdain that visitors here frequently encounter.
- yequalsx 14y ago
  I'm curious why this is being down voted. It seems obvious to me that if international tourism to the U.S. declined sufficiently then industry would put great pressure on the government to make the process much more inviting. I think there is near universal disgust with the TSA and ICE.
  - jakeonthemove 14y ago
    At the rate its been dropping, that will happen very soon. In fact, they're already trying to introduce a faster/easier airport travel with "trusted traveler" programs (leave it to the USA to make money out of something that used to be free :-)). Also, I'm surprised France is the most visited country - what do they have besides the Eiffel tower and bad roads :-)?
    - zem 14y ago
      they have a "romantic, quintessentially old/new world in juxtaposition western european destination" mystique that has been built up over decades.
      - excuse-me 14y ago
        They also manage to have more than one kind of bread, many cheeses which don't come in an aerosol can and food which takes more time to cook than it does to eat And, outside Paris, some very pleasant people.
        zem 14y ago
        true, but belgium for instance has all that too, and you don't see it getting that sort of must-see tourist aura
        excuse-me 14y ago
        Then it obviously needs a tower. Do you have the number for the Belgian tourist office - I have one that French want to sell! Luxembourg is also rather overlooked as a tourist destination, very nice walking countryside and you are never very far from somewhere to eat/drink/sleep.
        jakeonthemove 14y ago
        Funny that you mention Belgium - I am in Blankenberge right now (on business) - it's a nice little town, but it's nothing special. No offense to the locals, but I can't wait to get out of here - the weather is pretty bad, most residents are old, everyone is slooow (even in the rain :-), shops close at 6pm, banks close at 3pm and Everything's closed all day on Sunday, HSPA 3G here means 1 Mbit on a good day (usually ~500-700 kbit - oh, and you pay $20 for 1 GB), 4 Mbit DSL actually means 1.5 Mbit, and you pay $700 for a teeny-tiny 1 bedroom apartment (then again, it is a resort city). I nicknamed it Lazy Town :-). The only saving grace is the port nearby (~6km in Zeebrugge) - there's a bustling shipping and logistics industry here, and there's plenty of work and opportunities. Overall, for a first-timer in Belgium, I'd recommend going to Brussels or Antwerp - bigger cities, more active, although still very laid back compared to even Paris...
anigbrowl 14y ago
I quite agree about the fee, but also fail to see what it has to do with Florida. The fee exists because Congress has never got around to funding a proper entry-exit database for tourists, with the result that prior to 2007 (IIRC) there's basically no record of whether or not someone left the US after the 90-day period of admission for visa-free entry.
MiguelHudnandez 14y ago
The ESTA fees don't go to Florida in particular, but in part to Brand USA. I think the rest goes to the TSA to offset the cost of operations. Brand USA gets up to $200,000,000 from ESTA fees based on tourism industry support. All states' tourism situations have been ailing, starting with the reaction to 9/11. The ESTA fees are unpleasant but given that there is now a recipient of those fees with a vested interest in increasing visitation, there may be tangible benefits for future visitors. The $10 fee transforms visitors from a drain of security resources into profit-generating customers, which obviously can lead to a sea change in the way visitors are treated and the processes they are subjected to by the TSA. It will take time for that to occur, though. Disclosure: I work for what could be considered a state-level analogue of Brand USA.
- Variance 14y ago
  There's potential truth in what you're saying, but that doesn't mean that a tourism tax is far from ideal. The economics of governments and their agencies are very different from those of companies. Most importantly, while private companies have a market incentive to treat customers better when they pay more, governments don't. This is because governments both have a monopoly and so don't face outside competition, and because they don't face bankruptcy if they don't draw in the $200M in funds that you mentioned. Instead, all that the federal government is saying to the TSA/other ESTA recipients is that "we made a tax which generates $200M, so we expect you to step up your services with the funding". It works only partially, because the only motivation that ESTA recipients (especially the TSA) have to improve is the word of god, and not any meaningful amounts of hard cash profit. The TSA is the worst of all with this, because unlike state marketing authorities, the TSA has no theoretical benefit from increased tourism. The smaller and more local the agencies you are analyzing get, the more like businesses they are, and so the more effective an ESTA would be. So having an ESTA to make the TSA better is essentially just the same as increasing the TSA's funding from tax dollars and telling it to be better. Then you might as well do the latter, so as not to discourage tourists since tourists are much more likely to stop coming to the country than US citizens are to stop paying taxes because the income tax went up 0.01% to fund the $200M. And even increasing taxes isn't ideal, because theoretically, if the TSA experience being better is worth the money, tourism will increase proportionately, and tourism's benefit to the economy will drive up tax revenues automatically without a tax. Most ideal of all would be to find a way to privatize the TSA in a way that's safe and efficient, because then the new TSA corporation(s) would snap to market equilibrium.
Variance 14y ago
I just took a trip out of the US down to Brazil and back a few weeks ago, and dear god, coming back into the country at the airport in Atlanta... The tourists probably had about 20-30 minutes before getting out of the terminal, which is bad enough, but the US citizens were in a Disney World-esque line that was long enough that I missed a connecting flight scheduled an hour and a half after we arrived from Brazil. That was bad enough that I sure won't be flying out of the country for anything less than at least a couple days worth of stuff. I feel bad for anyone coming through who isn't a citizen or can't speak perfect English. The immigration building had these massive screens overhead showing serene farmland scenes and images from across the country, while two or three thousand passengers are stuck in a line desperately waiting to get home or to their hotels at 1 AM. It's all very dystopian.
- tesseract 14y ago
  Yeah, in addition to being frustrated by the wait I always feel so incredibly _embarrassed_ when I'm returning to the US, like I should be apologizing to the people in the visitors line for how horrible and frustrating it is. And that video is definitely over the top. Getting in and out of China (to pick one example out of the places I've visited) as a visitor was way less of a hassle than getting back into the US as a citizen. It's ridiculous.
- pbz 14y ago
  It's usually the other way around; meaning foreigners have to wait way more than citizens. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. If you ever had the pleasure of going through the US Embassy for a trip to the US you'd think people who end up still coming here are masochists.
  - mirsadm 14y ago
    In Melbourne, Australia the wait is over 2 hours and they don't have toilets in the building. Once you pass the many security checkpoints you can't leave until you get your visa. Pretty funny watching everybody run out after they get their visa sorted out.
  - userulluipeste 14y ago
sehugg 14y ago
Tourism to Florida is down relative to other U.S. destinations (Source: http://tinet.ita.doc.gov/outreachpages/download_data_table/2011_States_and_Cities.pdf http://tinet.ita.doc.gov/outreachpages/download_data_table/2...) so there may be some truth to this. Maybe we can look over the meeting notes (http://www.thebrandusa.com/meeting-records/ http://www.thebrandusa.com/meeting-records/) and find out?

by cstross 14y ago

nohat 14y ago

Charging a fee for entry is definitely not conducive for tourism, but how is it a subsidy to Florida? The article I read says it will be used to advertise, and pay for administrative costs.

rocky1138 14y ago
I don't have a problem charging a menial fee to tourists, so long as it's completely transparent where that money is going. The last thing a country should wish on its image is the tourist money going to military invasions and the like.

yequalsx 14y ago

I think the only way the TSA and ICE become more humane organizations is if people stop visiting the U.S. Please don't come here! There are many other nice places to visit that don't treat visitors with the disdain that visitors here frequently encounter.

yequalsx 14y ago
I'm curious why this is being down voted. It seems obvious to me that if international tourism to the U.S. declined sufficiently then industry would put great pressure on the government to make the process much more inviting. I think there is near universal disgust with the TSA and ICE.
- jakeonthemove 14y ago
  At the rate its been dropping, that will happen very soon. In fact, they're already trying to introduce a faster/easier airport travel with "trusted traveler" programs (leave it to the USA to make money out of something that used to be free :-)). Also, I'm surprised France is the most visited country - what do they have besides the Eiffel tower and bad roads :-)?
  - zem 14y ago
    they have a "romantic, quintessentially old/new world in juxtaposition western european destination" mystique that has been built up over decades.
    - excuse-me 14y ago
      They also manage to have more than one kind of bread, many cheeses which don't come in an aerosol can and food which takes more time to cook than it does to eat And, outside Paris, some very pleasant people.
      - zem 14y ago
        true, but belgium for instance has all that too, and you don't see it getting that sort of must-see tourist aura
        excuse-me 14y ago
        Then it obviously needs a tower. Do you have the number for the Belgian tourist office - I have one that French want to sell! Luxembourg is also rather overlooked as a tourist destination, very nice walking countryside and you are never very far from somewhere to eat/drink/sleep.
        jakeonthemove 14y ago
        Funny that you mention Belgium - I am in Blankenberge right now (on business) - it's a nice little town, but it's nothing special. No offense to the locals, but I can't wait to get out of here - the weather is pretty bad, most residents are old, everyone is slooow (even in the rain :-), shops close at 6pm, banks close at 3pm and Everything's closed all day on Sunday, HSPA 3G here means 1 Mbit on a good day (usually ~500-700 kbit - oh, and you pay $20 for 1 GB), 4 Mbit DSL actually means 1.5 Mbit, and you pay $700 for a teeny-tiny 1 bedroom apartment (then again, it is a resort city). I nicknamed it Lazy Town :-). The only saving grace is the port nearby (~6km in Zeebrugge) - there's a bustling shipping and logistics industry here, and there's plenty of work and opportunities. Overall, for a first-timer in Belgium, I'd recommend going to Brussels or Antwerp - bigger cities, more active, although still very laid back compared to even Paris...

anigbrowl 14y ago

I quite agree about the fee, but also fail to see what it has to do with Florida. The fee exists because Congress has never got around to funding a proper entry-exit database for tourists, with the result that prior to 2007 (IIRC) there's basically no record of whether or not someone left the US after the 90-day period of admission for visa-free entry.

MiguelHudnandez 14y ago

The ESTA fees don't go to Florida in particular, but in part to Brand USA. I think the rest goes to the TSA to offset the cost of operations. Brand USA gets up to $200,000,000 from ESTA fees based on tourism industry support. All states' tourism situations have been ailing, starting with the reaction to 9/11. The ESTA fees are unpleasant but given that there is now a recipient of those fees with a vested interest in increasing visitation, there may be tangible benefits for future visitors. The $10 fee transforms visitors from a drain of security resources into profit-generating customers, which obviously can lead to a sea change in the way visitors are treated and the processes they are subjected to by the TSA. It will take time for that to occur, though. Disclosure: I work for what could be considered a state-level analogue of Brand USA.

Variance 14y ago
There's potential truth in what you're saying, but that doesn't mean that a tourism tax is far from ideal. The economics of governments and their agencies are very different from those of companies. Most importantly, while private companies have a market incentive to treat customers better when they pay more, governments don't. This is because governments both have a monopoly and so don't face outside competition, and because they don't face bankruptcy if they don't draw in the $200M in funds that you mentioned. Instead, all that the federal government is saying to the TSA/other ESTA recipients is that "we made a tax which generates $200M, so we expect you to step up your services with the funding". It works only partially, because the only motivation that ESTA recipients (especially the TSA) have to improve is the word of god, and not any meaningful amounts of hard cash profit. The TSA is the worst of all with this, because unlike state marketing authorities, the TSA has no theoretical benefit from increased tourism. The smaller and more local the agencies you are analyzing get, the more like businesses they are, and so the more effective an ESTA would be. So having an ESTA to make the TSA better is essentially just the same as increasing the TSA's funding from tax dollars and telling it to be better. Then you might as well do the latter, so as not to discourage tourists since tourists are much more likely to stop coming to the country than US citizens are to stop paying taxes because the income tax went up 0.01% to fund the $200M. And even increasing taxes isn't ideal, because theoretically, if the TSA experience being better is worth the money, tourism will increase proportionately, and tourism's benefit to the economy will drive up tax revenues automatically without a tax. Most ideal of all would be to find a way to privatize the TSA in a way that's safe and efficient, because then the new TSA corporation(s) would snap to market equilibrium.

Variance 14y ago

I just took a trip out of the US down to Brazil and back a few weeks ago, and dear god, coming back into the country at the airport in Atlanta... The tourists probably had about 20-30 minutes before getting out of the terminal, which is bad enough, but the US citizens were in a Disney World-esque line that was long enough that I missed a connecting flight scheduled an hour and a half after we arrived from Brazil. That was bad enough that I sure won't be flying out of the country for anything less than at least a couple days worth of stuff. I feel bad for anyone coming through who isn't a citizen or can't speak perfect English. The immigration building had these massive screens overhead showing serene farmland scenes and images from across the country, while two or three thousand passengers are stuck in a line desperately waiting to get home or to their hotels at 1 AM. It's all very dystopian.

tesseract 14y ago
Yeah, in addition to being frustrated by the wait I always feel so incredibly _embarrassed_ when I'm returning to the US, like I should be apologizing to the people in the visitors line for how horrible and frustrating it is. And that video is definitely over the top. Getting in and out of China (to pick one example out of the places I've visited) as a visitor was way less of a hassle than getting back into the US as a citizen. It's ridiculous.
pbz 14y ago
It's usually the other way around; meaning foreigners have to wait way more than citizens. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. If you ever had the pleasure of going through the US Embassy for a trip to the US you'd think people who end up still coming here are masochists.
- mirsadm 14y ago
  In Melbourne, Australia the wait is over 2 hours and they don't have toilets in the building. Once you pass the many security checkpoints you can't leave until you get your visa. Pretty funny watching everybody run out after they get their visa sorted out.
- userulluipeste 14y ago

sehugg 14y ago

Tourism to Florida is down relative to other U.S. destinations (Source: http://tinet.ita.doc.gov/outreachpages/download_data_table/2011_States_and_Cities.pdf http://tinet.ita.doc.gov/outreachpages/download_data_table/2...) so there may be some truth to this. Maybe we can look over the meeting notes (http://www.thebrandusa.com/meeting-records/ http://www.thebrandusa.com/meeting-records/) and find out?