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> a sort of United Nations of Open Source that equally represents all. If you think the UN equally represents all, you are mistaken. The UN basically exists as

> a sort of United Nations of Open Source that equally represents all. If you think the UN equally represents all, you are mistaken. The UN basically exists as a forum for the major powers at the end of WWII to wield influence with a veneer of respectability (see Permanent Security Council). Ultimately, developers live in nation states, and need to eat, pay taxes, avoid getting throw in prison, etc. Nation states are also well aware of the power of software and won’t ignore it like they did before. Software, including open source is part of the full-spectrum competition. Given the geopolitical rivalries, I have approximately zero hope that open source will avoid these rivalries

whatshisface 2y ago
Up to this point nations have shown no interest in funding open source software and that's likely to continue. (This is despite the fact that Linux fuffills the public benefit argument for science funding better than most research.)
- Retric 2y ago
  Governments have minimal incentives to fund things that are working without their funding.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - fsflover 2y ago
    It depends on your definition of "working".
  - hdjjhhvvhga 2y ago
    The EU has been funding open source for years, and Germany just started their own funding program, currently in the pilot phase: https://www.sovereigntechfund.de/ https://www.sovereigntechfund.de/
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      I recently discovered that the SuSE based distribution used by some libraries on NRW a decade ago, is now Windows running in kiosk mode instead.
- kayo_20211030 2y ago
  I have no doubt that governments will fund the planning and implementation of exploits, polluting OSS libraries and systems, when it's in their interest to do so. Possibly over the long-term, using a combination of social engineering and code itself.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
floren 2y ago
"nation-state" has a particular meaning and it's not "a smarter-sounding way to say country"
- tptacek 2y ago
  For those wondering, the actual smarter-sounding way to say "country" is "state-level actor". So, open source developers live in state-level actors, is the cool way to say it.
- ARandomerDude 2y ago
  Your comment would be much more helpful if you explained your thoughts. Currently, it just sounds like "you're stupid."
  - floren 2y ago
    I've been on my phone so messages are terse but here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state
  - jcranmer 2y ago
    In sociopolitical terms, a nation refers to a group of people sharing the same culture. A nation-state is a sovereign state (a country) that encompasses all of the people of that culture, as opposed to other kinds of states that might be multiethnic or city-states or empires or whatnot. It's generally seen as the culmination of various independence movements in the 19th and 20th centuries, as constituent peoples within multiethnic empires sought their own independence as a self-governing state. Not all modern countries are nation-states. Countries like San Marino or Singapore are city states, while countries like the US are often seen not as nation states because they don't have a strong core concept of ethnicity forming the basis of the nation. (In particular, note that citizenship in the US--indeed most countries in the Western Hemisphere--is based primarily on jus soli, i.e., being born on sovereign soil; whereas most European countries figure it primarily on jus sanguini, i.e., based on your parents being citizens).
kayo_20211030 2y ago
Yes, I'd go with the zero hope option too. > Nation states are also well aware of the power of software and won’t ignore it like they did before. In 2020, DARPA instituted the CyberSocial project. One of its goals was to find ways to identify code introduced maliciously (for lulz, patriotism, or profit) to OSS projects where the intention of that code is to create or exploit vulnerabilities. There's a decent, accessible discussion of the issues at https://www.ifri.org/en/studies/software-power-economic-and-geopolitical-implications-open-source-software https://www.ifri.org/en/studies/software-power-economic-and-...
amelius 2y ago
> Nation states are also well aware of the power of software and won’t ignore it like they did before. Software, including open source is part of the full-spectrum competition. Why then is OSS not funded like scientific research?
- pmontra 2y ago
  Because the tools to write OSS are cheap. A laptop and a brain are enough. Everybody already got them. About time and paying one own bills: some people volunteer and somebody are paid by their employees to write open source or to occasionally contribute to it. I did it myself years ago. We needed to add some functionality to an OSS library and I asked to my customer if I could send the patch to the project on GitHub. They told me yes and I believe it's still there. GitHub inflicted 2FA to me for that later on, but that's another story. Some scientific research tools are as cheap as what we use to write software. Other tools cost a lot, from the 10 thousands to the billions. They are funded in several ways from universities, research labs to transnational entities. That could change with AI models because collecting data and training cost a lot, but they are not the usual OSS piece of code so I'm not sure that they belong to this thread.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
specproc 2y ago
I've worked around (and occasionally in) UN agencies for a good deal of my career, and it's getting to the point where I'd be surprised if it lasts another decade at this rate. I'd like to avoid a very dicey political hole here, but let's just say the inability of its governance structures to prevent recent conflicts or protect its peacekeepers puts it squarely in League of Nations territory.
- nradov 2y ago
  The UN has also been unable to prevent terrorists from infiltrating it's agencies. https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/08/1152841 https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/08/1152841

whatshisface 2y ago

Up to this point nations have shown no interest in funding open source software and that's likely to continue. (This is despite the fact that Linux fuffills the public benefit argument for science funding better than most research.)

Retric 2y ago
Governments have minimal incentives to fund things that are working without their funding.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- fsflover 2y ago
  It depends on your definition of "working".
- hdjjhhvvhga 2y ago
  The EU has been funding open source for years, and Germany just started their own funding program, currently in the pilot phase: https://www.sovereigntechfund.de/ https://www.sovereigntechfund.de/
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    I recently discovered that the SuSE based distribution used by some libraries on NRW a decade ago, is now Windows running in kiosk mode instead.
kayo_20211030 2y ago
I have no doubt that governments will fund the planning and implementation of exploits, polluting OSS libraries and systems, when it's in their interest to do so. Possibly over the long-term, using a combination of social engineering and code itself.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

floren 2y ago

"nation-state" has a particular meaning and it's not "a smarter-sounding way to say country"

tptacek 2y ago
For those wondering, the actual smarter-sounding way to say "country" is "state-level actor". So, open source developers live in state-level actors, is the cool way to say it.
ARandomerDude 2y ago
Your comment would be much more helpful if you explained your thoughts. Currently, it just sounds like "you're stupid."
- floren 2y ago
  I've been on my phone so messages are terse but here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state
- jcranmer 2y ago
  In sociopolitical terms, a nation refers to a group of people sharing the same culture. A nation-state is a sovereign state (a country) that encompasses all of the people of that culture, as opposed to other kinds of states that might be multiethnic or city-states or empires or whatnot. It's generally seen as the culmination of various independence movements in the 19th and 20th centuries, as constituent peoples within multiethnic empires sought their own independence as a self-governing state. Not all modern countries are nation-states. Countries like San Marino or Singapore are city states, while countries like the US are often seen not as nation states because they don't have a strong core concept of ethnicity forming the basis of the nation. (In particular, note that citizenship in the US--indeed most countries in the Western Hemisphere--is based primarily on jus soli, i.e., being born on sovereign soil; whereas most European countries figure it primarily on jus sanguini, i.e., based on your parents being citizens).

kayo_20211030 2y ago

Yes, I'd go with the zero hope option too. > Nation states are also well aware of the power of software and won’t ignore it like they did before. In 2020, DARPA instituted the CyberSocial project. One of its goals was to find ways to identify code introduced maliciously (for lulz, patriotism, or profit) to OSS projects where the intention of that code is to create or exploit vulnerabilities. There's a decent, accessible discussion of the issues at https://www.ifri.org/en/studies/software-power-economic-and-geopolitical-implications-open-source-software https://www.ifri.org/en/studies/software-power-economic-and-...

amelius 2y ago

> Nation states are also well aware of the power of software and won’t ignore it like they did before. Software, including open source is part of the full-spectrum competition. Why then is OSS not funded like scientific research?

pmontra 2y ago
Because the tools to write OSS are cheap. A laptop and a brain are enough. Everybody already got them. About time and paying one own bills: some people volunteer and somebody are paid by their employees to write open source or to occasionally contribute to it. I did it myself years ago. We needed to add some functionality to an OSS library and I asked to my customer if I could send the patch to the project on GitHub. They told me yes and I believe it's still there. GitHub inflicted 2FA to me for that later on, but that's another story. Some scientific research tools are as cheap as what we use to write software. Other tools cost a lot, from the 10 thousands to the billions. They are funded in several ways from universities, research labs to transnational entities. That could change with AI models because collecting data and training cost a lot, but they are not the usual OSS piece of code so I'm not sure that they belong to this thread.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

specproc 2y ago

I've worked around (and occasionally in) UN agencies for a good deal of my career, and it's getting to the point where I'd be surprised if it lasts another decade at this rate. I'd like to avoid a very dicey political hole here, but let's just say the inability of its governance structures to prevent recent conflicts or protect its peacekeepers puts it squarely in League of Nations territory.

nradov 2y ago
The UN has also been unable to prevent terrorists from infiltrating it's agencies. https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/08/1152841 https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/08/1152841