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>Physicians were initially unaware or dismissive of brain zaps due to limited information and a focus on downplaying the addictive nature of antidepressants. I

• camgunz 2y ago
  80% of everything is crap, including psychiatrists, plus if you take away SSRIs that's a huge chunk of their business. Upton Sinclair and all that.
  • malfist 2y ago
    SSRIs kept me from killing myself. You should moderate your opinion. I'm sure you wouldn't advocate for taking away a diabetic's insulin of an organ recipients immunosuppressant
    • sbrother 2y ago
      Thank you - same here. I hate how “trendy” it’s become to hate on SSRIs. Are they a silver bullet? no. Are they overprescribed? Maybe. But they’re one of the few useful treatments for debilitating depression and anxiety that we currently have.
      • SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
        The other interesting thing about SSRIs is that because 1. SSRIs are relatively safe 2. The actual mechanisms of action of SSRIs are not fully understood 3. SSRIs have been prescribed so widely in the last few decades SSRIs are extremely well studied in scientific literature. To be clear when I say well studied I mean that the corpus of literature is broad, not that the corpus is comprehensive to the point that it can be claimed a solved problem. If you would like lots of placebo blind controlled trials and a bunch of different ways of looking at the problem you will find a welcome home in SSRI's. Note also that I'm not saying SSRI's are a great solution to every problem simply because they are well studied. They just have a lot of data points for people to use to make informed decisions. Which is always a good thing - and it's a luxury you rarely get in pharmacology.
    • deleted 2y ago
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    • DANmode 2y ago
      > SSRIs kept me from killing myself. Conversely, we've heard this sentiment from people using their first cannabis, psychedelic, or even just their latest drink.
      • s1artibartfast 2y ago
        That may or may not be true. People are diverse in their psychology and situations. Sure, most or many people are probably exaggerating. That said, I have known a lot of suicidal people, and almost arbitrarily things can make a big difference.
      • olyjohn 2y ago
        It's true that a lot of people medicate themselves in various ways. It doesnt mean an SSRI doesn't work for a lot of people. This sounds like a very dismissive statement.
        • drzaiusx11 2y ago
          I self medicated before going on SSRIs, I can tell you that neither alcohol nor THC/CBD/CBN/CBG worked nearly as well as SSRIs for me personally.
    • camgunz 2y ago
      Whoa I did not say that, and same here. Please read what I wrote more carefully.
    • drzaiusx11 2y ago
      SSRIs (sertraline) gave me my life back. I don't have any appreciable side-effects and can live my life without crippling anxiety and depression. I started out with Wellbutrin, an SSRI alternative, and it caused short term memory loss and brain fog. I'm only functioning today due to SSRIs.
• thescriptkiddie 2y ago
  I've gotten them from taking SNRIs, so I wonder if norepinephrine is involved somehow, or maybe SNRIs are not actually that selective.
  • larve 2y ago
    got them after weaning of SNRIs, for about 1-2 years I had random brain zaps. Not that big of a deal per se, but definitely annoying.
  • jrflowers 2y ago
    The S in SNRI stands for Serotonin, not Selective.
    • fzzzy 2y ago
      Wow, I did not know that. Good to know.
    • jamedjo 2y ago
      Today I Relearned: Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor (SSRI) != Serotonin Norepinephrine Reuptake Inhibitor (SNRI) != Selective Norepinephrine Reuptake inhibitor (sNRI)
      • partomniscient 2y ago
        There are also SDRI and SDNRI. D -> Dopamine.
  • _moof 2y ago
    If you're talking about Effexor - famous for wicked brain zaps after only one missed dose - this could have more to do with its very short half life.
  • p1anecrazy 2y ago
    The only time I got them was getting off a high dose of Strattera (atomoxetine), the rare non-stimulant ADHD medication, cold turkey.
• asimovfan 2y ago
  i used to get zaps when my body tried to feel good on normal occasions after 'fucking with my seratonin levels'. I remember i used to get them when I was reading something i found clever or funny, chugging cold water, biking etc.
  • jamiek88 2y ago
    Finally! Someone else with this. Reading Crime and Punishment gives me this feeling, I get zaps and it kinda hurts my brain to read. Only happened with that novel and some Shakespeare.
    • selimthegrim 2y ago
      So far only a certain episodes of Curb Your Enthusiasm have given me this
      • JoeyJoJoJr 2y ago
        If you are describing what I think you are describing, I get the same thing when I smell a very specific smell from my childhood. It has happened a few times walking past a house and the smell brings this kind of nostalgic zap in my head.
  • carlmr 2y ago
    >I remember i used to get them when I was reading something i found clever or funny I have to ask do these zaps feel good, bad, do they hurt, do they tickle. I can't quite imagine what zap is supposed to mean. Without any history of SSRI use, when I read something funny or clever, I've often experienced a weird feeling which could be described as electric, but also tickly and kind of good feeling. Mostly in my brain and upper spine. I also get this listening to ASMR audio. Not sure if that's the same thing we're referring to though.
    • habinero 2y ago
      No, it's different. Brain zaps feel like a little unpleasant jolt of static electricity in your brain. They're hard to describe. It's not exactly painful but it's not pleasant. For all the doom and gloom of SSRIs, I haven't had any real side effects and they've helped a lot
• ChadNauseam 2y ago
  > Someone I know took about 4g of MDMA over a 4-day period For anyone reading who's unfamiliar, this is a ridiculous dose of MDMA. A normal recreational dose would be 0.1g-0.2g once every few months. (I have no idea whether this dose is safe or not, just saying it's a common one for people to take.) A bad thing about MDMA is that you become tolerant to it very quickly, so people who do it too regularly need to take more and more over time to feel the effects. That's probably what happened to the parent comment's friend.
  • morkalork 2y ago
    I've seen someone do 1g over the course of a long evening but they were a seasoned user. That's the kind of dose that would send a average sized teenage girl to a hospital in convulsions. 4g over 4 days? It's not even about the tolerance at that point, by days 3/4 do you even have any serotonin left for it to be any fun?
    • deleted 2y ago
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  • TheSpiceIsLife 2y ago
    I'd argue 100 to 200mg every few months is a normal therapeutic dose. What's normal and recreational is much less well defined.
  • Jerrrrrrry 2y ago
    Having experienced this exact dosage, I can attest it is more of just raw dragon-chasing juxtaposed with an insane tolerance curve. The euphoria caused by MDMA combined with literally any other drug (MDMA is like ketchup, can be combined with anything) synergizes and can quickly escalate to rampant re-dosing that _exponentially_ increases tolerance, all while preventing the receptor to re-regulate. The "sads" following MDMA binges are so ironically over-bearing to a point of near artificial-ness and it is nearly obviously attributable to the chemical. MDPM/6-APB are interesting as they are euphoric and serotonic but with less manic depressive the next circadian cycle.
• marknutter 2y ago
  > sleep paralysis with demons in the room (feeling like you are laying in bed with a demon coming towards you but you physically cannot move) This gave me literal chills when I read it because this exact thing happened to me for the same reason as your acquaintance (but far, far lower doses). I was prone to getting sleep paralysis anyways, but abusing MDMA resulted in the most terrifying experience of my life two nights in a row. Your description was spot on.. I felt the covers on my bed being pulled off of me by some demonic presence the first night, and the second night the same thing happened but that time I was lifted out of my bed and slowly dragged away. Felt like I was awake and perfectly conscious the entire time and I literally frozen with fear to the point where I couldn't speak. I stayed up the entire night after that for fear of it happening again. I also got terrible brain zaps for weeks afterwards, too.
• Traubenfuchs 2y ago
  > Someone I know took about 4g of MDMA over a 4-day period I am all for freedom of drugs and people experiencing one of the most beautiful states of mind one can achieve, but 4g MDMA over 4 days is literally in the attempted brain-damage territory.
• survivedurcode 2y ago
  I think there’s more to it than just messing with serotonin. There’s something about Sertraline (Zoloft) that seems to make it quite reliable at causing brain zaps. 3 people I’ve known who stopped Sertraline all experienced brain zaps. 1 of those people also talked about stopping Prozac (cold turkey) and Lexapro (4wk taper) and did not have the zaps, but a 4-month taper of Sertraline was not enough to avoid them. In fact in the article they recommend switching to Prozac and then tapering that, as a way to avoid the zaps.
  • spangry 2y ago
    I've heard similar about Zoloft, and Effexor (which is notorious for causing withdrawal symptoms when coming off it). I believe Lexapro is a highly selective SSRI, which might explain its lack of withdrawal symptoms (and also its "does absolutely nothing" effect for some people). Prozac has a very long half-life compared to other SSRIs so it's basically got an in-built taper, and is why it's often 'cross-tapered' to when coming off another SSRI.
    • sbrother 2y ago
      I’ve been on Lexapro for a few years now, and if I skip it for a couple days I get very unpleasant brain zaps and dizziness. If this is a lack of withdrawal symptoms then I hate to imagine what other SSRIs cause! Still, it’s been a life changing drug for me and I haven’t really had any bad side effects while I’ve been taking it.
      • SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
        I took Lexapro for a short period in my early 20's. Perhaps like 3-4 months. I definitely remember having significant brain zaps when I quit. It was a pretty low dose I was taking too - 10mg IIRC. Definitely no more than 20mg. I don't remember the zaps causing me significant stress at the time, but that was primarily because I knew to expect the zaps going in to the experience. Education helps a lot with anxiety. If people know to expect it, and that we are pretty sure that it's completely harmless but uncomfortable, the general anxiety around the symptom will probably be less.
• jvanderbot 2y ago
  SSRIs are a huge help to me. I'm one of the lucky (?) ones. For those curious about what a brain zap is, it's like you're going about your normal business, then you feel a jolt like you're surprised, but only in your head. Then it's difficult to remember what you were thinking about prior to the zap. When it happened to me last, I stopped walking and couldn't resume my inner monologue/ train of thought. I just started walking and let another one conjure itself up. It's been decades since I've had one, Wellbutrin is much better.
  • hirvi74 2y ago
    For me, it felt like my brain would buffer like a YouTube video for a split second.
    • joquarky 2y ago
      I just attribute that to getting old.
      • hirvi74 2y ago
        Ha! I was 20 years old at the time, so hopefully that wasn't the case. Though, I feel time has caught up to me for sure.
  • wruza 2y ago
    When I went off SSRIs, these zaps were regular for two weeks, especially outside when something like a car crawls into your peripheral view. Ranged from a full zap to light “buffering reset”, as if you just skipped a second of your life. Idk how a doctor can just dismiss it. Ofc there is a variety in “brightness” out there but being that thick is something else.
  • gr4ntmr 2y ago
    it's like striking your funny bone, but in your head
    • RaptorEarth42 2y ago
• pdfernhout 2y ago
  > Physicians were initially unaware or dismissive of brain zaps due to limited information and a focus on downplaying the addictive nature of antidepressants. Seems like another example of: "Deadly Psychiatry and Organised Denial" https://www.deadlymedicines.dk/deadly-psychiatry-and-organised-denial/ https://www.deadlymedicines.dk/deadly-psychiatry-and-organis... "Deadly Psychiatry and Organised Denial explains in evidence-based detail why the way we currently use psychiatric drugs does far more harm than good. Professor, Doctor of Medical Science, Peter C. Gøtzsche documents that psychiatric drugs kill more than half a million people every year among those aged 65 and above in the United States and Europe. This makes psychiatric drugs the third leading cause of death, after heart disease and cancer. Gøtzsche explains that we could reduce our current usage of psychotropic drugs by 98% and at the same time improve patients’ mental and physical health and survival. It can be difficult, however, to come off the drugs, as many people become dependent on them. As the withdrawal symptoms can be severe, long-lasting and even dangerous, slow tapering is usually necessary. In his book, Gøtzsche debunks the many myths that leading psychiatrists – very often on drug industry payroll – have created and nurtured over decades in order to conceal the fact that biological psychiatry has generally been a failure. Biological psychiatry sees drugs as the “solution” for virtually all problems, in marked contrast to the patients’ views. Most patients don’t respond to the drugs they receive but, unfortunately, the psychiatrists’ frustrations over the lack of progress often lead to more diagnoses, more drugs and higher doses, harming the patients further." Other alternatives for health and wellness I have collected: https://github.com/pdfernhout/High-Performance-Organizations-Reading-List#health-and-wellness https://github.com/pdfernhout/High-Performance-Organizations... One example from there: "The Depression Cure: The 6-Step Program to Beat Depression without Drugs" by Stephen S. Ilardi From the Amazon book blurb: "In the past decade, depression rates have skyrocketed, and one in four Americans suffer from major depression at some point in their lives. Where have we gone wrong? Dr. Stephen Ilardi sheds light on our current predicament and reminds us that our bodies were never designed for the sleep-deprived, poorly nourished, frenzied pace of twenty-first century life. Inspired by the extraordinary resilience of aboriginal groups like the Kaluli of Papua New Guinea, Dr. Ilardi prescribes an easy-to-follow, clinically proven program that harks back to what our bodies were originally made for and what they continue to need with these six components: * Brain Food [supplement with Omega 3s; remember your brain is mostly fat] * Don't Think, Do [avoid excessive rumination by doing things] * Antidepressant Exercise [aerobic exercise is medicine] * Let There Be Light [get natural sunlight and supplement as needed with vitamin D3] * Get Connected [engage in face-to-face social activities regularly] * Habits of Healthy Sleep [get enough sleep by following basic guidelines] The Depression Cure's holistic approach has been met with great success rates, helping even those who have failed to respond to traditional medications. For anyone looking to supplement their treatment, The Depression Cure offers hope and a practical path to wellness for anyone." TL;DR as Ilardi says: "We were never designed for the sedentary, indoor, sleep-deprived, socially-isolated, fast-food-laden, frenetic pace of modern life. (Stephen Ilardi, PhD)" That said, if you are on prescription psychotropic meds already, do not stop taking them or change doses without some medically-approved plan for getting off them. Peter Gøtzsche wrote an entire book about that: "Mental Health Survival Kit and Withdrawal from Psychiatric Drugs: A User's Guide" https://www.amazon.com/Mental-Health-Survival-Withdrawal-Psychiatric/dp/1615996192 https://www.amazon.com/Mental-Health-Survival-Withdrawal-Psy... "This book can help people with mental health issues to survive and return to a normal life. Citizens believe, and the science shows, that medications for depression and psychosis and admission to a psychiatric ward are more often harmful than beneficial. Yet most patients take psychiatric drugs for years. Doctors have made hundreds of millions of patients dependent on psychiatric drugs without knowing how to help them taper off the drugs safely, which can be very difficult. The book explains in detail how harmful psychiatric drugs are and gives detailed advice about how to come off them. You will learn: ... that psychiatric drugs should never be stopped abruptly because withdrawal reactions can be dangerous..."
• firecall 2y ago
  Thats exactly the problem I'm having! Working with my GP to titrate off Sertraline (Zoloft) at the moment. My GP, like many others, wasnt really aware of the issues with getting off the drugs! I describe the brain zaps as like a wave of electricity. Like a Sci-Fi pulsing wave. As if i've got some sort of giant capacitor discharging in my brain. The sort of thing from a 50s Sci-Fi movie thats a tower of electricity, glowing and pulsing and radiating an electrical light show! Exactly the sort of thing that might re-animate Frankenstein! It's not painful as such, but it's debilitating and causes you to literally pause and make a sharp intake of breath. I hate being on the bloody things. Wish I'd never started them. CBT is much more effective in the long term, for me. YMMV. I find SSRIs kill my motivation and creativity. I'd really suggest anyone think twice before assuming these pills, that GPs dish out like candy, are an easy and consequence free solution!
  • TexanFeller 2y ago
    Someone close to me is doing the same. Sertraline isn't easily available in tiny dose increments useful for weaning off gradually, and its half life isn't very long, so missing or reducing a dose is almost immediately noticeable for some people. A strategy that's helped is cross-titrating and switching to Prozac. Because Prozac has a massively longer half life it's a much smoother ride while you're gradually reducing it.
    • mh- 2y ago
      Generic sertraline comes in pill/tablet form, you can just use a pill splitter to get smaller increments. I just googled to confirm this before posting, and they're even scored down the middle for easy splitting.
      • TexanFeller 2y ago
        Right, but splitting isn't sufficient for many people. The person I know was on 50mg. They tried to carefully shave off 1/8th initially, then 1/4 etc. It was error prone cutting them exactly and even a 1/8th change in dose at a time with a two week adjustment period caused them to have terrible effects. They cross titrated to Prozac and it became easy to taper down slowly. Reddit and forums are full of people that needed to reduce Sertraline by 1-5mg at a time over a period of months if they've been taking it long term. I think far more people might find that they need to taper very slowly if more people got past the first step of tapering instead of just staying on them indefinitely. Many people feel more anxious and depressed on a slightly lower dose and take that as confirmation that they were born needing it, when it might be more the case that their brain has adapted to depend on it. If they were able to reduce more slowly and comfortably this might be more obvious. That matches what I saw with the person I know who is finally doing well on low dose Prozac.
• CTDOCodebases 2y ago
  > sleep paralysis with demons in the room I've heard of people experiencing similar things when practicing techniques for Lucid Dreaming or Astral Projection.
  • FractalHQ 2y ago
    I’ve had lifelong intermittent sleep paralysis and it’s one of the worst feelings. Happened to me yesterday during a nap actually! I went to get up, and only my right foot moved an inch (or so it felt). I had to count to 3 and muster all of my strength to try to move again, and it didn’t work until the 4th time, when my body finally giggled a little.. enough to wake up the rest of it and free me once and for all.
• pyinstallwoes 2y ago
  If anyone has had their teeth whitened and felt the zaps in their teeth… it’s like that but in your brain. Fucking sucked.
• jrflowers 2y ago
  > Someone I know took about 4g of MDMA over a 4-day period As an aside, there are several dozen drugs that street dealers sell as “MDMA” with wildly variable dose-response curves. 4 grams of MDMA sounds insane but it is absolutely feasible that a person could end up having to take that much of some other cathinone/MDxx drug for a comparable experience
• csydas 2y ago
  I think some other posters already commented, but I wouldn't put too much stock in the MDMA being MDMA -- I use MDMA pretty frequently and never had brain zaps from it, but when I was on sertraline and quit without tapering off, I definitely had the brain zaps being described, and I still get them almost 15 years after discontinuing sertraline. MDMA depending on where you are and what you got can be quite a few things, it's why test kits are important. It's not to say that MDMA cannot cause brain zaps, but given that we know that MDMA is usually cut with a lot of filler/other drugs without the user knowing, I would acknowledge it could do it, but would always have doubt it was actually the MDMA due to the knowledge that whatever the users who experienced brain zaps took likely had many other drugs/substances in it. In the current political climate surrounding drugs, I'm not even sure how a study could effectively be done correctly. Which is unfortunate because brain zaps really suck and withdrawal from SSRIs is pretty rough. I easily get into addictive substances, and have successfully stopped use on quite a few pretty heavy things, and they didn't come close to the withdrawals from SSRIs for me. This is personal experience of course, and likely many other factors in my life helped with my stopping some recreational drugs without hugely adverse affects, but SSRIs just nothing helped and at the time (2010-2015), I really couldn't find any reliable information online or from doctors about the brain zaps. I'm glad to read this article because it's great to see that there is attention to this and more focus on the side effects of SSRIs. SSRIs definitely can help many people, but it is pretty intense drug and the withdrawal is nasty for quite a few people.
  • zktruth 2y ago
    I don't know why you're so skeptical that a drug possessing the primary effect of flooding one's brain with serotonin can cause SSRI withdrawal symptoms upon cessation. As for whether or not it's 'really MDMA', not everybody is popping pressed ecstasy tablets. It's trivial to send a few crushed crystals to a spectroscopy lab and I very rarely see samples cut with anything other than carbohydrates.
  • mateus1 2y ago
    What volume did you do? I took about the same amount as the OP and had it too.
  • 2y ago
• mateus1 2y ago
  Oh wow, I had a very similar experience with brain zaps after a slightly lower dose over 4 days. They were mostly non intrusive and around the nape of my head. I hope they’re not a signal of damage.
• sporkland 2y ago
  Do these occur without the use of SSRI's? e.g. in ADHD patients? What if _someone I know_ has had these brain zaps extremely infrequently but definitely noticed them in the past?