3 ms·

Spain is x3 the nominal GDP of Ireland and x6 Greece and the 15th economy in the world and the three together are of the size of Canada. Maybe your comment abo

Spain is x3 the nominal GDP of Ireland and x6 Greece and the 15th economy in the world and the three together are of the size of Canada. Maybe your comment about what defines a developed country might be overly simplified...

alephnerd 2y ago
> developed country Developmental indicators, nominal GDP per Capita, and median household income. Before Spain, Ireland, Greece, and Portugal ascended into the EU in the 1970s-80s, their developmental indicators largely mirrored those of developing countries from that era (Malaysia, Turkey, Argentina, Iran). It was EU developmental funds that helped these countries not fall into the middle income trap. The only developing countries that were able to escape the middle income trap without EU Development Funds or oil were South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, and Israel. Also, having a large GDP does not mean a country is developed. China and India have the 2nd and 5th largest GDP in the world, yet their median household incomes are less than that of Thailand, Mexico, or Malaysia - let alone countries defined as developed by the IMF.
- lastdong 2y ago
  Portugal, like Spain and Argentina, faced significant historical challenges in the 20th century. Portugal's fascist regime, which lasted until 1974, limited investment in infrastructure and economic development. Spain, under Franco's dictatorship, also faced political and economic constraints. Argentina, too, experienced political instability and economic turmoil, particularly during the 1970s military dictatorship. Also were mentioned Malaysia, Turkey, and Iran, which have their own unique historical contexts that I'm not as familiar with.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    Absolutely. And that doesn't have anything to do with my point that Spain was a developing country well into the 1990s, and that most of the post-Franco era development was subsidized by EEC and EU Developmental Funds Read this, it's a good overview of the process - https://www.elibrary.imf.org/display/book/9781557753199/ch02.xml https://www.elibrary.imf.org/display/book/9781557753199/ch02...
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      Yep, Spain was a dictatorship until about 50 years ago, well within many people's living memory. Even worse, why is it a democratic nation (sorta--they still have a king after all) now? Because they got tired of living in a dicatorship? No. It's because the dictator got old and died, and I guess they couldn't find a new dictator to replace him. It shouldn't be any surprise that a nation and culture so tolerant of living in a dictatorship isn't exactly leading the world.
      - mejutoco 2y ago
        Franco designated his successor. It was supposed to be the previous king Juan Carlos. He reinstated the monarchy and became king instead. In terms of getting rid of dictators, you also have to realize that since the Spanish civil war (1936-1939) there was a dictatorship until 1975. That is a lot of time to purge any opposition. Your last sentence is uncharitable and overly simplistic.
  - johngladtj 2y ago
    None of that about Portugal is true.
    - alephnerd 2y ago
      What's wrong about that? Salazar absolutely did a massive number on Portugal, with a horrible economic policy, and spending ungodly amounts on colonial wars in Angola, Mozambique, Guinea, East Timor, and Goa. Portugal to this day has fairly weak human capital compared to it's peers.
      - speeder 2y ago
        From where I understood Salazar got power in first place because he improved an even shittier economy, and this was his early source of popular support.
        alephnerd 2y ago
        His economic reign was bunk even compared to neighboring Spain On the eve of the Carnation Revolution, Portugal had one of the lowest literacy rates in Europe, one of the lowest GDP per Capitas in Europe, one of the lowest electrification rates in Europe, etc [0] In the early 1970s, it was unimaginable for Portugal to become a developed country, and if it wasn't for its ascension into the EC, it would have stagnated. [0] - https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP85T00875R001700010027-0.pdf https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP85T00875R0017000...
  - nradov 2y ago
    "Historical challenges" are a lame excuse for poverty. Singapore faced equally severe challenges but they seem to be doing well economically. Portugal could do just as well if they cared enough to make it a priority.
    - Yeul 2y ago
      Somewhere in the 16th and 17th century economic power shifted from the South to the North. Venice became Amsterdam. Singapore has it's location- a politically stable enclave in South East Asia. Portugal is competing with the likes of Denmark and Germany.

alephnerd 2y ago

> developed country Developmental indicators, nominal GDP per Capita, and median household income. Before Spain, Ireland, Greece, and Portugal ascended into the EU in the 1970s-80s, their developmental indicators largely mirrored those of developing countries from that era (Malaysia, Turkey, Argentina, Iran). It was EU developmental funds that helped these countries not fall into the middle income trap. The only developing countries that were able to escape the middle income trap without EU Development Funds or oil were South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, and Israel. Also, having a large GDP does not mean a country is developed. China and India have the 2nd and 5th largest GDP in the world, yet their median household incomes are less than that of Thailand, Mexico, or Malaysia - let alone countries defined as developed by the IMF.

lastdong 2y ago
Portugal, like Spain and Argentina, faced significant historical challenges in the 20th century. Portugal's fascist regime, which lasted until 1974, limited investment in infrastructure and economic development. Spain, under Franco's dictatorship, also faced political and economic constraints. Argentina, too, experienced political instability and economic turmoil, particularly during the 1970s military dictatorship. Also were mentioned Malaysia, Turkey, and Iran, which have their own unique historical contexts that I'm not as familiar with.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  Absolutely. And that doesn't have anything to do with my point that Spain was a developing country well into the 1990s, and that most of the post-Franco era development was subsidized by EEC and EU Developmental Funds Read this, it's a good overview of the process - https://www.elibrary.imf.org/display/book/9781557753199/ch02.xml https://www.elibrary.imf.org/display/book/9781557753199/ch02...
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    Yep, Spain was a dictatorship until about 50 years ago, well within many people's living memory. Even worse, why is it a democratic nation (sorta--they still have a king after all) now? Because they got tired of living in a dicatorship? No. It's because the dictator got old and died, and I guess they couldn't find a new dictator to replace him. It shouldn't be any surprise that a nation and culture so tolerant of living in a dictatorship isn't exactly leading the world.
    - mejutoco 2y ago
      Franco designated his successor. It was supposed to be the previous king Juan Carlos. He reinstated the monarchy and became king instead. In terms of getting rid of dictators, you also have to realize that since the Spanish civil war (1936-1939) there was a dictatorship until 1975. That is a lot of time to purge any opposition. Your last sentence is uncharitable and overly simplistic.
- johngladtj 2y ago
  None of that about Portugal is true.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    What's wrong about that? Salazar absolutely did a massive number on Portugal, with a horrible economic policy, and spending ungodly amounts on colonial wars in Angola, Mozambique, Guinea, East Timor, and Goa. Portugal to this day has fairly weak human capital compared to it's peers.
    - speeder 2y ago
      From where I understood Salazar got power in first place because he improved an even shittier economy, and this was his early source of popular support.
      - alephnerd 2y ago
        His economic reign was bunk even compared to neighboring Spain On the eve of the Carnation Revolution, Portugal had one of the lowest literacy rates in Europe, one of the lowest GDP per Capitas in Europe, one of the lowest electrification rates in Europe, etc [0] In the early 1970s, it was unimaginable for Portugal to become a developed country, and if it wasn't for its ascension into the EC, it would have stagnated. [0] - https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP85T00875R001700010027-0.pdf https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP85T00875R0017000...
- nradov 2y ago
  "Historical challenges" are a lame excuse for poverty. Singapore faced equally severe challenges but they seem to be doing well economically. Portugal could do just as well if they cared enough to make it a priority.
  - Yeul 2y ago
    Somewhere in the 16th and 17th century economic power shifted from the South to the North. Venice became Amsterdam. Singapore has it's location- a politically stable enclave in South East Asia. Portugal is competing with the likes of Denmark and Germany.