17 ms·

Microsoft Recall is now an explorer.exe dependency

212 points by aquova 2y ago

kelsey98765431 2y ago
Proton is able to run just about anything now, not just games. Stop using Microsoft Operating Systems where you can and mark them as needing replacement with real software in all your reports.
- lpapez 2y ago
  The day when I can play Rocket League under Linux without anti-cheat kicking in is when I will stop using it completely. Until then, I am dual booting.
  - BadHumans 2y ago
    The funny thing about this was that Rocket League was native on Linux and Psyonix removed Linux support.
    - ThatMedicIsASpy 2y ago
      Epic bought them, moved it to the Epic Store which has no Linux support. Makes sense to drop it.
      - ZunarJ5 2y ago
        Lutris solves most of that problem. I installed Unreal Engine through it.
      - mock-possum 2y ago
        supporting Epic is one of the most shooting-yourself-in-the-foot moves you can make as a gamer.
        ranger_danger 2y ago
        you could say the same about any corporation
  - hcal 2y ago
    I run it on Linux everyday with Steam on Proton. It is my go to game on steamdeck and my Fedora desktop. By default steam wants to download the old old old Linux version that doesn't allow online play, but if you enable proton it will download the Windows version and run fine. I am pretty sure it doesn't have a real anti-cheat included.
    - twojacobtwo 2y ago
      Are you sure? Is this recent (last 6 months)? I enabled it and tested multiple versions of Proton with no success. Did you have to do anything else?
      - zamalek 2y ago
        In addition to making sure that the EAC runtime is installed, try setting the compatibility command to: SDL_VIDEODRIVER=windows,x11 %command% This is a typical problem with EAC.
        hbn 2y ago
        Every thread that starts with "Linux gaming is basically 100% ready now" progresses into hacks like this :)
        moffkalast 2y ago
        To be fair, every thread that starts with "Win 11 can still be debloated" progresses into registry hacks too :)
      - hcal 2y ago
        I don't have to do anything else. I just use the current proton. I just installed it on the flatpak version too. No trouble.
  - hypeatei 2y ago
    What? Rocket League works fine on Proton with no weirdness. Played a bunch of competitive matches with no issues whatsoever.
  - thegeekpirate 2y ago
    Better say your last goodbyes in that case, as it's always worked perfectly =b Riot's Vanguard on the other hand, has unfortunately made it impossible to play LoL =c
- blastersyndrome 2y ago
  Can it run the most recent version of SolidWorks? Can it run any version of SolidWorks? If it can, I am switching to Linux immediately.
- robotnikman 2y ago
  The day Proton or WINE can run the whole Adobe suite of products is the day I will probably switch to using Linux full time.
  - BadHumans 2y ago
    Would you consider replacing the Adobe suite with other products?
    - swatcoder 2y ago
      For many graphics professionals, that's like asking if you'd consider replacing C++ with Rust. There's one answer you might provide when you've the luxury to start things over and ramp up on all the differences, but practical reality is that you rarely have that luxury. Fluency and confidence in the tools you already use provides strong resistance to switching, even if alternatives promise they're ready to meet your needs.
      - Kenji 2y ago
        > For many graphics professionals, that's like asking if you'd consider replacing C++ with Rust. So, that's a yes?
        Wowfunhappy 2y ago
        Imagine if no C++ compiler existed for your operating system. Even if most of the code you write is Rust, would you be able to use this operating system?
        BadHumans 2y ago
        I don't understand this analogy because every tool touted as a photoshop replacement supports PSD.
        Wowfunhappy 2y ago
- atemerev 2y ago
  No, Revit and other CADs are still not working.
  - CoastalCoder 2y ago
    Out of curiosity, what prevents that software from running on Proton? Is it something involving certified OpenGL drivers?
    - abe_m 2y ago
      I don't know about Revit, but Inventor and Solidworks are WIN32 API right to their very core. Basically everything in them is available on the COM interface as objects, which is awesome for writing extensions to the programs on Windows. I suspect the trade off is that they are so all-in on WIN32, that they just touch way more of the API than games do, so they probably expose much more of missing API. They both rely on Microsoft Office for a variety of functionality, particularly Excel to manage tables of data. They rely on SQL server for the Vault and PDM products. They are Windows based through-and-through.
- imbusy111 2y ago
  From my experience, it's still not a 100% replacement. For example, there are no drivers for a pretty common steering wheel (Logitech G923). There is a driver for an older version of the wheel that kind of works, but no TRUEFORCE support. And even then, you have to mess with some low level details to make it work, send magic values to the hardware on plugging it in. I also noticed that games from Steam end up taking up substantially more disk space to the point where I can have only a few games installed on Linux. And even the games without any special hardware dongles don't work so well as you imply.
  - csdreamer7 2y ago
    > For example, there are no drivers for a pretty common steering wheel (Logitech G923). This is a nice, specific detail. Most of these comments are very vague. > There is a driver for an older version of the wheel that kind of works Do you mean an out of tree driver? Would you test this and post back? The 6.3 kernel they mentioned 3 months ago is very old and likely a forked kernel. https://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/vb0b37/g29g923_users_correct_guide_to_install_logitech/l9dimye/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/vb0b37/g29g92... I am new to steering wheels-not sure if this is the exact version because they mention xbox)? Try a distro with a very recent kernel (6.11; like Nobara for a gaming focused distro). > I also noticed that games from Steam end up taking up substantially more disk space to the point where I can have only a few games installed on Linux. Shouldn't be substantially more disk space. Would you provide stats? Proton makes a Windows environment for each game as it installs those 3rd party libraries in the environment and that is used for disk calculations, while on Windows those libraries may be installed directly to the OS. Each 3rd party library and the shader cache is stored separately. This is my guess-I do not work on Proton. > And even the games without any special hardware dongles don't work so well as you imply. Anticheat and a few obscure Windows libraries are an issue. River City Girls needs some media foundation library or it does not show cutscenes. Valve is working on them.
    - School-Cotton 2y ago
      Anticheat is not some minor detail, lots of popular competitive games require it.
- Jaepa 2y ago
  I was going to say Fusion360 is my largest blocker, but it looks like it's now in the Silver category https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=36468 https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iI...
  - rkagerer 2y ago
    Sadly, Solidworks is still in the "Garbage" category. Is there any effective way (aside from coding myself) to effect improvement there?
  - abe_m 2y ago
    I'm pretty sure Fusion360 is built with QT tool kit for the GUI, and uses Python for the scripting engine. Of any of the modern professional paid 3D CAD programs, it seems to be the least tethered to Windows. It would be nice if they released a proper Linux version, like Autodesk does for some of their art industry programs. NX used to have a UNIX GUI recently, but it would take a pretty major company to move off Windows to bring that back. Solidworks made its name by being the first mainstream CAD built for Windows back when all the other 3D CAD was running UNIX workstations that cost more than a new pickup truck. Both Solidworks, and the Autodesk competitor to it, Inventor, are Windows API through and through. It is disappointing, but unsurprising that they don't do well in WINE. They went all in on Windows to their core from the very start.
- SunlitCat 2y ago
  Maybe anyone can chime in about VR support under Linux? That's a huge show stopper for me at the moment and holding me back from switching over to Linux.
  - zamalek 2y ago
    Valve Index. I currently dual-boot Windows for VR. This is the rabbit hole I went down (to be clear: SteamVR, specifically the compositor, is completely broken). 1. Install Monado with libsurvive. 2. Discover that libsurvive doesn't have the "smarts" that SteamVR has, and that calibration can be wonky (and was wonky for me). 3. Learn that you can import SteamVR calibration data. I can't do this in Linux because, well, SteamVR doesn't work. 4. Dual boot Windows with the intention to copy over calibration data. 5. Windows is installed. Give up and dual boot. https://monado.freedesktop.org/libsurvive.html https://monado.freedesktop.org/libsurvive.html If anyone else has had success, I would love to hear about it.
    - rft 2y ago
      Well, I got Monado and libsurvive running some time ago (Valve Index, X11, Nvidia), even for Beat Saber. It sadly was unplayable, because reflections were wrong in VR apps, it felt like both eyes using the same reflection angle instead of adjusting it to each eye. For close objects this was bearable, anything further away would look "wrong" and cause VR sickness. Also the FoV was wrong, it felt like a vignette around the screen edges, a good bit narrower than in SteamVR. Oh yeah, and the latest version did not build for me, used a previous one. Performance, especially in Beat Saber, was great and better than SteamVR! I would expect SteamVR to at least work enough for calibration. You could try switching to beta or other versions.
      - Wowfunhappy 2y ago
        I don't understand why Valve of all companies isn't supporting Linux here.
        rft 2y ago
- DrillShopper 2y ago
  I recently set up my gaming rig dual booting Win 10 and Linux. I've spent almost all of my time in the Linux side, and when Win 10 is EOL I am no longer dual booting - Windows can live in a GPU passthrough VM under Linux with only Steam and whatever Windows software won't run under Proton/Wine. Windows can see what I want it to see and not the whole machine. It has completely broken my trust.
- t0bia_s 2y ago
  It is not able to run Adobe. Only reason why I still cannot switch to linux unfortunately.
- itsTyrion 2y ago
  What about Software for hardware (Mouse, Keyboard, Audio Interface) and some productivity apps?
brink 2y ago
Does anyone know any good "debloat" scripts to disable all these modern features of Windows 11 and bring me back to something that resembles the Windows I grew up with? I'm having a hard time keeping track of all of the registry keys and config settings I need to update to keep this crap at bay.
- imchillyb 2y ago
  What you’re describing is the entire point of all these disparate settings. Security through obscurity. The security, though, is for Windows features not user’s protection.
- Kenji 2y ago
  [dead]
- stressinduktion 2y ago
  Not really a windows user, but I had some success with: https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10 https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10
- inhumantsar 2y ago
  the repo linked here is what you want
- hypeatei 2y ago
  https://github.com/Raphire/Win11Debloat https://github.com/Raphire/Win11Debloat
  - ewoodrich 2y ago
    This is the first thing I run on any new Win 11 device/install and afterwards the OS just disappears into the background and doesn’t bother me one bit. Incredible feeling of zen being able to scroll past the heated online Win 11 debates that don’t seem to apply to my day to day usage at all.
- cheeseomlit 2y ago
  massgrave's LTSC install has made it tolerable for me at least. The first time I booted into a standard consumer win11 install I nearly had an aneurysm
joshdavham 2y ago
I'm not a windows user myself, but I'm curious what you windows users think about this.
- jampekka 2y ago
  Surely they can't be thinking much about operating systems?
  - BadHumans 2y ago
    This doesn't deserve downvotes because it is entirely correct. Your average Windows user doesn't know about this let alone think about it. The number of people who know and care about this are an extreme minority.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - bigstrat2003 2y ago
      It completely deserves downvotes because the question was addressed to Windows users of this forum, who are the sort of person who would think about it. There's no call to insult Windows users just because they use Windows.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - BadHumans 2y ago
        You taking it as an insult says more about you than the poster. I don't see it as an insult at all.
  - tamask 2y ago
    What a sarcastic comment. It may be true on average, but definitely not for everyone. I'm one of the counterexamples, because I think about it a lot, and I'm carefully considering my options and alternatives.
layer8 2y ago
If this is a reliable way to revert Explorer back to the non-ribbon version, I hope they’ll keep this in.
- antisthenes 2y ago
  Yes, install Windows 10 LTSC, use it until end of support, then switch to Linux. There are no new features in W11 that are worth enduring the absolute bloated spyware-ridden POS that it is.
  - layer8 2y ago
    Windows 10 LTSC is either too old (2016?) or only lasts until 2027. It’s not worth it. Linux is fine for CLI use, but the GUI doesn’t cut it for me, not to speak of the many Windows software and drivers that won’t work or will be awkward to use. There is no good solution, but ditching Windows entirely is still the worse (non-)solution for me.
- DaiPlusPlus 2y ago
  > revert Explorer back to the non-ribbon version Don't you mean to the ribbon-UI version? Explorer switched from having a traditional menubar with a text-only context-sensitive toolbar (as in Vista and 7) to using the ribbon in Windows 8 and Windows 10; Windows 11 had the new dumbed-down explorer UI design since day-one (though in earlier builds of Win11 the ribbon UI could still be restored in Windows 11 using tweaks - or simply via bugs in explorer: https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows11/comments/s3nilb/you_can_get_the_explorer_ribbons_back_by_heading/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows11/comments/s3nilb/you_can_g... ) - it looks like MS fully removed the old code at the same time they added Recall support?
  - layer8 2y ago
    I wasn’t really familiar with the Windows 11 changes. I’m still on Windows 10 and use Ribbon Disabler, and also hide the toolbar by patching an XML resource in shellstyle.dll (IIRC). Ideally I’d want a no-context-sensitivity “just normal menus” version.
Dwedit 2y ago
Just a reminder that Windows Defender has flagged certain versions of ExplorerPatcher as a virus. The last time I updated Windows 11 was to fix the IPV6 RCE vulnerability, but other than that I have updates blocked.
timetraveller26 2y ago
Wake up people, you are in a toxic relationship with your OS. You can do better.
- markus_zhang 2y ago
  Still not going to file a divorce, getting there...
- UberFly 2y ago
  Despite the high maintenance required in my current relationship, I still don't want to move in with that hippie Linux. :)
giancarlostoro 2y ago
Every single day I am given more reasons never to use Windows again. Glad I moved to Linux early this year. My next desktop will likely be a System76 to ensure Microsoft doesn't get a cut from my next purchase, and it supports a business that supports Linux.
- ManBeardPc 2y ago
  Made the switch to Linux myself roughly a year ago. With Steam and Lutris even my gaming needs are nearly fully covered. Developing for Linux servers or the web anyway, so no problems there. Very little troubles with just a plain old Ubuntu distribution, no console wizardry required either. I won’t go back. Businesses that depend heavily upon it though… good luck.
- victor9000 2y ago
  Having followed the same path, you won't regret it. I jumped ship 15 years ago after starting off my career as a C# dev and I never looked back. Linux makes it easy for you to be a developer, while other platforms fight you every step of the way. You'll eventually get into situations where you need to update something manually or rollback a dependecy, but it will be possible, and you'll find bug tickets describing the problem and what you can do about it.
  - wilsonnb3 2y ago
    > Linux makes it easy for you to be a developer, while other platforms fight you every step of the way I see this sentiment a lot but the developer experience on Windows is good to great in my experience. Much better than MacOS or linux if you are using Visual Studio and .NET, pretty equal if you are using another stack. What it isn't is posix/unix. A lot of the bad developer experience people have on windows is from trying to (pre-WSL, at least) shoe horn unix tools and practices instead of doing things the windows way.
    - bee_rider 2y ago
      I’m assuming it is easier to write code on the platform you want to deploy it to. So, server-first stuff: web dev, scientific computing, AI, all that sort of stuff is Linux-first. Writing Windows software, I’m sure, is easier on Windows. Happily Valve fixed the whole gaming issue, outside of niche DRM stuff that I don’t care about.
hypeatei 2y ago
So glad I switched to Linux and got away from this garbage. Now I have to convince my employer to also allow Linux on their workstations. Windows 7 was the last good OS from MSFT but even that had a bit of telemetry.
- SunlitCat 2y ago
  If it is about telemetry and related stuff (like that activation), it would be Windows 2000. Sadly I never had the chance to experience it and went with Windows ME. :(
  - linguae 2y ago
    Activation, introduced in Windows XP, is the main reason why I consider Windows 2000 the high water mark of Windows. The Windows NT lineup was truly no nonsense, no fuss. Unfortunately the merger of consumer-focused Windows (which used to be the 3.1/95/98/Me) lineup) and pro-focused Windows (which was the NT lineup plus Windows 2000) coincided with the introduction of many annoyances, starting with activation in Windows XP and later adding nagging prompts for updates and security-related things, telemetry, UI changes, and more. Sadly even macOS has gotten more annoying over the years with its various nagging prompts.
- Randor 2y ago
  What Windows 7 telemetry are you referring to? Other than WER, there was no telemetry in Windows 7 to my knowledge. There was an update a few years ago that back ported telemetry to Windows 7 right before the final stage of extended support and final EOL.
  - jeroenhd 2y ago
    Back when Microsoft started pushing telemetry in Windows 10, they added additional telemetry to Windows 7 through updates. Not nearly as pervasive and omnipresent as with Windows 11, though; you can just remove the telemetry updates: https://gist.github.com/xvitaly/eafa75ed2cb79b3bd4e9 https://gist.github.com/xvitaly/eafa75ed2cb79b3bd4e9
overgard 2y ago
I hadn't heard of this feature before, but WTF? Who thought AI parsing everything you do on your system would be a good idea?! I want zero to do with this "feature".
superidiot1932 2y ago
Yeah this is it for me, cleaning up my windows installation and backing up my files, going to move to some linux distro this month.
GrayShade 2y ago
> To those that arrive here from any Youtube or Twitter posts, please know that disabling Recall via DISM works fine, and preserves the modern File Explorer (though some might consider this an anti-feature). CBS correctly disables it, and the disablement is preserved through reboots, just like with any other feature.
- kobalsky 2y ago
  > that disabling Recall via DISM works fine this whole deal with recall slowly creeping in after the initial rejection is the worst case of just-the-tip I've seen people accept. will anyone be surprised when it gets enabled in an update by mistake, not to mention by spyware.
- DrammBA 2y ago
  Also previous comment about the tool being updated: > the latest commit to the draft PR now does the following. It leaves Recall enabled, but then it disables it on the first run. During my testing, it kept the explorer look intact
imchillyb 2y ago
People aren’t people. They’re not citizens. We are consumers, labeled and binned. Our constitution might as well read: ‘We the Product…’.
- DrillShopper 2y ago
  We hold these truth self evident that all corporations are likely created in Delaware and domiciled in Ireland for tax purposes. They are endowed by their shareholders with certain unalienable rights, that among these are profit, lack of regulation, and the pursuit of infinite growth.
thomasahle 2y ago
For those who don't know, Microsoft Recall is a system that screenshots what you do every few seconds, and uses OpenAI's vision api to allow search on eveything you did in the past. There's an article from Sep 27th where they promise you'll be able to uninstall Recall: https://www.theverge.com/2024/9/27/24255721/microsoft-windows-recall-ai-security-improvements-overhaul-uninstall https://www.theverge.com/2024/9/27/24255721/microsoft-window... , not sure what that means for this explorer.exe dependency.
- lostmsu 2y ago
  It supposed to be local.
  - skydhash 2y ago
    Which is equally bad. Why am I wasting CPU power on that?
    - goalieca 2y ago
      It sounds like an unnecessary security nightmare. Someone will figure out how to tap into this.
      - moffkalast 2y ago
        I think someone quickly realized it was all being stored in an unencrypted database on the machine when the first version launched, so anyone with direct access can just list through the whole thing.
  - kobalsky 2y ago
    ~~it's supposed to be optional.~~ it's supposed to be local. <------ YOU ARE HERE you can supposedly disable it. it's supposed not to send your information to the cops if it's sees you being naughty.
    - whatshisface 2y ago
noncoml 2y ago
I thought I make a generic reply instead of replying at every comment below: People don't use Windows over Linux because they prefer the Windows environment/experience. They use it because of the applications, and to some degree the drivers, that are not available in Linux.
- golf1052 2y ago
  To the shock of some people as well, some people use Windows because they prefer it over other operating systems.
  - pino82 2y ago
    Probably yes. Depending on your requirements (e.g. if cloud, spying, etc is all fine), it can indeed make sense. Windows has its strengths. But what I suspect: A much bigger cohort is people saying "I'm not forced, I just explicitly prefer it" although this is actually a lie. Some of them are aware of that, some not. Being forced to sth is not great. Not everyone is honest (or even aware) enough to admit it.
markus_zhang 2y ago
If it comes to Windows 10 I'll have to go for a Linux machine.
- bee_rider 2y ago
  Give it a try, dual boot.
  - ZunarJ5 2y ago
    You don't even have to go that far: https://distrosea.com/ https://distrosea.com/
    - markus_zhang 2y ago
      Thanks. I already use Linux for my dev box so it's fine. Right now I'm just not motivated enough to use it in daily drive.
ChrisArchitect 2y ago
Can OP explain what they've linked to or further link to the actual comment discussing Recall.
ChrisArchitect 2y ago
Related: Controversial Windows Recall AI Search Tool Returns with Proof-of-Presence https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41684116 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41684116
G_o_D 2y ago
[flagged]
willsoon 2y ago
Participating in a thread that makes me feel a little better about myself.
G_o_D 2y ago
[flagged]
y2hhcmxlcw 2y ago
What about Attorneys and Doctors who have protected health information and client privileged information? Are they not to use Microsoft Products now? What about any company with Trade Secret information? Are they also not to use Microsoft Products now?
- olyjohn 2y ago
  This is the same question people have been asking since Microsoft started including Telemetry in Windows.
  - t-writescode 2y ago
    Except now it's __literally__ taking screenshots and reading them. "Oh no it knows a program was run" is not 'as bad' of a HIIPA violation as, "Oh no, it's literally taking a screenshot, reading it and saving it".
bloopernova 2y ago
For those looking to dual boot but not deal with the hassle of Windows breaking boot sectors: https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/create-portable-windows-11-disk https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/create-portable-windows-... Rufus + Windows To Go + an external SSD = I'm able to use windows when I want, the rest of the time it stays in a drawer.
UberFly 2y ago
Despite lots of good info here, it's devolved into yet another "just switch to Linux" thread. Sigh.
- bee_rider 2y ago
  I wish people would just switch to Linux so they’d shut up about it. I use Linux every day, I love it, but it is a community project with rough edges and no customer service. Pretty small rough edges nowadays. But they are still there, and there’s no customer service. Always happy to see people join Linux, but slightly confused at the folks advertising it. Are they implicitly signing up to be the customer service for these folks who are used to an OS-as-a-product type setup?
  - Barrin92 2y ago
    >Are they implicitly signing up to be the customer service for these folks who are used to an OS-as-a-product type setup? I mean first off, yes most people using Linux have no problem with helping people out, my guess is linux users are probably 100x more active on support platforms than anyone else. (if not more) But also, who on earth has Microsoft customer service? Big businesses sure, but do you think most Windows users get customer support, big tech companies stopped connecting you to a human being like ten years ago. Everyone just googles when something breaks no matter the OS. I'm just so tired of the meme that there is any meaningful difference at this point. I've been using stock Ubuntu Desktop for 12(?) years, out of the box, no weird tinkering. Do you know how often friends and family call me because something broke on their Windows machine and I'm the "tech guy"? This is the experience of every programmer I know. What difference does it make if they run Linux, yes stuff will break but we've been fixing stuff breaking anyway.
    - pino82 2y ago
      One of the most disappointing aspects of the Linux ecosystem is the 'community'. The self-proclaimed experts in forums who try to help people. I'm using Linux only since >20 years. I usually don't need them. And I learned soon to not involve them. Whenever I did, it was a pure waste of time.
ZunarJ5 2y ago
Is Ubuntu the best for a touchscreen? Is there a specific flavour people are happy with? I prefer to keep to Ubuntu if possible as I use it as my daily. I have a HP laptop I got a year or two ago with a pen. It's literally the only thing holding me back from switching on that machine. I have run debloat tools on it but Windows doesn't respect that with subsequent updates.
- olyjohn 2y ago
  I ran Ubuntu on a Surface Pro 2 like 6 years ago. Touchscreen seems to work as well as Windows as far as I can tell.
  - ZunarJ5 2y ago
    This is good to hear. It seems built for it.
ZunarJ5 2y ago
If people would like to "try Linux before you buy," check out DistroSea! It spins up a virtual machine of whatever distro and flavour you choose to try. https://distrosea.com/ https://distrosea.com/
nunez 2y ago
Wow. Windows Explorer is literally spyware now. it's incredible to see how far Windows has slid down the tubes, and I say this as someone who LOVED Windows.
1vuio0pswjnm7 2y ago
Long ago when I last used it at home I used to run the Windows without explorer.exe. I believe I did it via editing a key or keys in the registry. Wonder if it still works today with more recent Windows versions.
sys_64738 2y ago
Isn't this the old trick MICROS~1 pulled trying to claim IE was part of the base OS. They cooked it so that IE was the DNS of the filemanager when upgrading to IE4.
sub7 2y ago
I just spent an hour and a half getting my friend's email account untied from my local Windows account after she typed it into Windows Store once. Involved having to remove all kinds of system files and many registry keys, some that did not contain the email string at all, but encrypted versions of it (IdentityCRL) This spyware is out of control. The worst part is they do all this and all their telemetry based products are still useless Clippy garbage that helps absolutely nobody do anything better or faster.

212 points by aquova 2y ago

Proton is able to run just about anything now, not just games. Stop using Microsoft Operating Systems where you can and mark them as needing replacement with real software in all your reports.

lpapez 2y ago
The day when I can play Rocket League under Linux without anti-cheat kicking in is when I will stop using it completely. Until then, I am dual booting.
- BadHumans 2y ago
  The funny thing about this was that Rocket League was native on Linux and Psyonix removed Linux support.
  - ThatMedicIsASpy 2y ago
    Epic bought them, moved it to the Epic Store which has no Linux support. Makes sense to drop it.
    - ZunarJ5 2y ago
      Lutris solves most of that problem. I installed Unreal Engine through it.
    - mock-possum 2y ago
      supporting Epic is one of the most shooting-yourself-in-the-foot moves you can make as a gamer.
      - ranger_danger 2y ago
        you could say the same about any corporation
- hcal 2y ago
  I run it on Linux everyday with Steam on Proton. It is my go to game on steamdeck and my Fedora desktop. By default steam wants to download the old old old Linux version that doesn't allow online play, but if you enable proton it will download the Windows version and run fine. I am pretty sure it doesn't have a real anti-cheat included.
  - twojacobtwo 2y ago
    Are you sure? Is this recent (last 6 months)? I enabled it and tested multiple versions of Proton with no success. Did you have to do anything else?
    - zamalek 2y ago
      In addition to making sure that the EAC runtime is installed, try setting the compatibility command to: SDL_VIDEODRIVER=windows,x11 %command% This is a typical problem with EAC.
      - hbn 2y ago
        Every thread that starts with "Linux gaming is basically 100% ready now" progresses into hacks like this :)
        moffkalast 2y ago
        To be fair, every thread that starts with "Win 11 can still be debloated" progresses into registry hacks too :)
    - hcal 2y ago
      I don't have to do anything else. I just use the current proton. I just installed it on the flatpak version too. No trouble.
- hypeatei 2y ago
  What? Rocket League works fine on Proton with no weirdness. Played a bunch of competitive matches with no issues whatsoever.
- thegeekpirate 2y ago
  Better say your last goodbyes in that case, as it's always worked perfectly =b Riot's Vanguard on the other hand, has unfortunately made it impossible to play LoL =c
blastersyndrome 2y ago
Can it run the most recent version of SolidWorks? Can it run any version of SolidWorks? If it can, I am switching to Linux immediately.
robotnikman 2y ago
The day Proton or WINE can run the whole Adobe suite of products is the day I will probably switch to using Linux full time.
- BadHumans 2y ago
  Would you consider replacing the Adobe suite with other products?
  - swatcoder 2y ago
    For many graphics professionals, that's like asking if you'd consider replacing C++ with Rust. There's one answer you might provide when you've the luxury to start things over and ramp up on all the differences, but practical reality is that you rarely have that luxury. Fluency and confidence in the tools you already use provides strong resistance to switching, even if alternatives promise they're ready to meet your needs.
    - Kenji 2y ago
      > For many graphics professionals, that's like asking if you'd consider replacing C++ with Rust. So, that's a yes?
      - Wowfunhappy 2y ago
        Imagine if no C++ compiler existed for your operating system. Even if most of the code you write is Rust, would you be able to use this operating system?
        BadHumans 2y ago
        I don't understand this analogy because every tool touted as a photoshop replacement supports PSD.
        Wowfunhappy 2y ago
atemerev 2y ago
No, Revit and other CADs are still not working.
- CoastalCoder 2y ago
  Out of curiosity, what prevents that software from running on Proton? Is it something involving certified OpenGL drivers?
  - abe_m 2y ago
    I don't know about Revit, but Inventor and Solidworks are WIN32 API right to their very core. Basically everything in them is available on the COM interface as objects, which is awesome for writing extensions to the programs on Windows. I suspect the trade off is that they are so all-in on WIN32, that they just touch way more of the API than games do, so they probably expose much more of missing API. They both rely on Microsoft Office for a variety of functionality, particularly Excel to manage tables of data. They rely on SQL server for the Vault and PDM products. They are Windows based through-and-through.
imbusy111 2y ago
From my experience, it's still not a 100% replacement. For example, there are no drivers for a pretty common steering wheel (Logitech G923). There is a driver for an older version of the wheel that kind of works, but no TRUEFORCE support. And even then, you have to mess with some low level details to make it work, send magic values to the hardware on plugging it in. I also noticed that games from Steam end up taking up substantially more disk space to the point where I can have only a few games installed on Linux. And even the games without any special hardware dongles don't work so well as you imply.
- csdreamer7 2y ago
  > For example, there are no drivers for a pretty common steering wheel (Logitech G923). This is a nice, specific detail. Most of these comments are very vague. > There is a driver for an older version of the wheel that kind of works Do you mean an out of tree driver? Would you test this and post back? The 6.3 kernel they mentioned 3 months ago is very old and likely a forked kernel. https://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/vb0b37/g29g923_users_correct_guide_to_install_logitech/l9dimye/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/vb0b37/g29g92... I am new to steering wheels-not sure if this is the exact version because they mention xbox)? Try a distro with a very recent kernel (6.11; like Nobara for a gaming focused distro). > I also noticed that games from Steam end up taking up substantially more disk space to the point where I can have only a few games installed on Linux. Shouldn't be substantially more disk space. Would you provide stats? Proton makes a Windows environment for each game as it installs those 3rd party libraries in the environment and that is used for disk calculations, while on Windows those libraries may be installed directly to the OS. Each 3rd party library and the shader cache is stored separately. This is my guess-I do not work on Proton. > And even the games without any special hardware dongles don't work so well as you imply. Anticheat and a few obscure Windows libraries are an issue. River City Girls needs some media foundation library or it does not show cutscenes. Valve is working on them.
  - School-Cotton 2y ago
    Anticheat is not some minor detail, lots of popular competitive games require it.
Jaepa 2y ago
I was going to say Fusion360 is my largest blocker, but it looks like it's now in the Silver category https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=36468 https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iI...
- rkagerer 2y ago
  Sadly, Solidworks is still in the "Garbage" category. Is there any effective way (aside from coding myself) to effect improvement there?
- abe_m 2y ago
  I'm pretty sure Fusion360 is built with QT tool kit for the GUI, and uses Python for the scripting engine. Of any of the modern professional paid 3D CAD programs, it seems to be the least tethered to Windows. It would be nice if they released a proper Linux version, like Autodesk does for some of their art industry programs. NX used to have a UNIX GUI recently, but it would take a pretty major company to move off Windows to bring that back. Solidworks made its name by being the first mainstream CAD built for Windows back when all the other 3D CAD was running UNIX workstations that cost more than a new pickup truck. Both Solidworks, and the Autodesk competitor to it, Inventor, are Windows API through and through. It is disappointing, but unsurprising that they don't do well in WINE. They went all in on Windows to their core from the very start.
SunlitCat 2y ago
Maybe anyone can chime in about VR support under Linux? That's a huge show stopper for me at the moment and holding me back from switching over to Linux.
- zamalek 2y ago
  Valve Index. I currently dual-boot Windows for VR. This is the rabbit hole I went down (to be clear: SteamVR, specifically the compositor, is completely broken). 1. Install Monado with libsurvive. 2. Discover that libsurvive doesn't have the "smarts" that SteamVR has, and that calibration can be wonky (and was wonky for me). 3. Learn that you can import SteamVR calibration data. I can't do this in Linux because, well, SteamVR doesn't work. 4. Dual boot Windows with the intention to copy over calibration data. 5. Windows is installed. Give up and dual boot. https://monado.freedesktop.org/libsurvive.html https://monado.freedesktop.org/libsurvive.html If anyone else has had success, I would love to hear about it.
  - rft 2y ago
    Well, I got Monado and libsurvive running some time ago (Valve Index, X11, Nvidia), even for Beat Saber. It sadly was unplayable, because reflections were wrong in VR apps, it felt like both eyes using the same reflection angle instead of adjusting it to each eye. For close objects this was bearable, anything further away would look "wrong" and cause VR sickness. Also the FoV was wrong, it felt like a vignette around the screen edges, a good bit narrower than in SteamVR. Oh yeah, and the latest version did not build for me, used a previous one. Performance, especially in Beat Saber, was great and better than SteamVR! I would expect SteamVR to at least work enough for calibration. You could try switching to beta or other versions.
    - Wowfunhappy 2y ago
      I don't understand why Valve of all companies isn't supporting Linux here.
      - rft 2y ago
DrillShopper 2y ago
I recently set up my gaming rig dual booting Win 10 and Linux. I've spent almost all of my time in the Linux side, and when Win 10 is EOL I am no longer dual booting - Windows can live in a GPU passthrough VM under Linux with only Steam and whatever Windows software won't run under Proton/Wine. Windows can see what I want it to see and not the whole machine. It has completely broken my trust.
t0bia_s 2y ago
It is not able to run Adobe. Only reason why I still cannot switch to linux unfortunately.
itsTyrion 2y ago
What about Software for hardware (Mouse, Keyboard, Audio Interface) and some productivity apps?

brink 2y ago

Does anyone know any good "debloat" scripts to disable all these modern features of Windows 11 and bring me back to something that resembles the Windows I grew up with? I'm having a hard time keeping track of all of the registry keys and config settings I need to update to keep this crap at bay.

imchillyb 2y ago
What you’re describing is the entire point of all these disparate settings. Security through obscurity. The security, though, is for Windows features not user’s protection.
Kenji 2y ago
[dead]
stressinduktion 2y ago
Not really a windows user, but I had some success with: https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10 https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10
inhumantsar 2y ago
the repo linked here is what you want
hypeatei 2y ago
https://github.com/Raphire/Win11Debloat https://github.com/Raphire/Win11Debloat
- ewoodrich 2y ago
  This is the first thing I run on any new Win 11 device/install and afterwards the OS just disappears into the background and doesn’t bother me one bit. Incredible feeling of zen being able to scroll past the heated online Win 11 debates that don’t seem to apply to my day to day usage at all.
cheeseomlit 2y ago
massgrave's LTSC install has made it tolerable for me at least. The first time I booted into a standard consumer win11 install I nearly had an aneurysm

joshdavham 2y ago

I'm not a windows user myself, but I'm curious what you windows users think about this.

jampekka 2y ago
Surely they can't be thinking much about operating systems?
- BadHumans 2y ago
  This doesn't deserve downvotes because it is entirely correct. Your average Windows user doesn't know about this let alone think about it. The number of people who know and care about this are an extreme minority.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - bigstrat2003 2y ago
    It completely deserves downvotes because the question was addressed to Windows users of this forum, who are the sort of person who would think about it. There's no call to insult Windows users just because they use Windows.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - BadHumans 2y ago
      You taking it as an insult says more about you than the poster. I don't see it as an insult at all.
- tamask 2y ago
  What a sarcastic comment. It may be true on average, but definitely not for everyone. I'm one of the counterexamples, because I think about it a lot, and I'm carefully considering my options and alternatives.

layer8 2y ago

If this is a reliable way to revert Explorer back to the non-ribbon version, I hope they’ll keep this in.

antisthenes 2y ago
Yes, install Windows 10 LTSC, use it until end of support, then switch to Linux. There are no new features in W11 that are worth enduring the absolute bloated spyware-ridden POS that it is.
- layer8 2y ago
  Windows 10 LTSC is either too old (2016?) or only lasts until 2027. It’s not worth it. Linux is fine for CLI use, but the GUI doesn’t cut it for me, not to speak of the many Windows software and drivers that won’t work or will be awkward to use. There is no good solution, but ditching Windows entirely is still the worse (non-)solution for me.
DaiPlusPlus 2y ago
> revert Explorer back to the non-ribbon version Don't you mean to the ribbon-UI version? Explorer switched from having a traditional menubar with a text-only context-sensitive toolbar (as in Vista and 7) to using the ribbon in Windows 8 and Windows 10; Windows 11 had the new dumbed-down explorer UI design since day-one (though in earlier builds of Win11 the ribbon UI could still be restored in Windows 11 using tweaks - or simply via bugs in explorer: https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows11/comments/s3nilb/you_can_get_the_explorer_ribbons_back_by_heading/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows11/comments/s3nilb/you_can_g... ) - it looks like MS fully removed the old code at the same time they added Recall support?
- layer8 2y ago
  I wasn’t really familiar with the Windows 11 changes. I’m still on Windows 10 and use Ribbon Disabler, and also hide the toolbar by patching an XML resource in shellstyle.dll (IIRC). Ideally I’d want a no-context-sensitivity “just normal menus” version.

Dwedit 2y ago

Just a reminder that Windows Defender has flagged certain versions of ExplorerPatcher as a virus. The last time I updated Windows 11 was to fix the IPV6 RCE vulnerability, but other than that I have updates blocked.

timetraveller26 2y ago

Wake up people, you are in a toxic relationship with your OS. You can do better.

markus_zhang 2y ago
Still not going to file a divorce, getting there...
UberFly 2y ago
Despite the high maintenance required in my current relationship, I still don't want to move in with that hippie Linux. :)

giancarlostoro 2y ago

Every single day I am given more reasons never to use Windows again. Glad I moved to Linux early this year. My next desktop will likely be a System76 to ensure Microsoft doesn't get a cut from my next purchase, and it supports a business that supports Linux.

ManBeardPc 2y ago
Made the switch to Linux myself roughly a year ago. With Steam and Lutris even my gaming needs are nearly fully covered. Developing for Linux servers or the web anyway, so no problems there. Very little troubles with just a plain old Ubuntu distribution, no console wizardry required either. I won’t go back. Businesses that depend heavily upon it though… good luck.
victor9000 2y ago
Having followed the same path, you won't regret it. I jumped ship 15 years ago after starting off my career as a C# dev and I never looked back. Linux makes it easy for you to be a developer, while other platforms fight you every step of the way. You'll eventually get into situations where you need to update something manually or rollback a dependecy, but it will be possible, and you'll find bug tickets describing the problem and what you can do about it.
- wilsonnb3 2y ago
  > Linux makes it easy for you to be a developer, while other platforms fight you every step of the way I see this sentiment a lot but the developer experience on Windows is good to great in my experience. Much better than MacOS or linux if you are using Visual Studio and .NET, pretty equal if you are using another stack. What it isn't is posix/unix. A lot of the bad developer experience people have on windows is from trying to (pre-WSL, at least) shoe horn unix tools and practices instead of doing things the windows way.
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    I’m assuming it is easier to write code on the platform you want to deploy it to. So, server-first stuff: web dev, scientific computing, AI, all that sort of stuff is Linux-first. Writing Windows software, I’m sure, is easier on Windows. Happily Valve fixed the whole gaming issue, outside of niche DRM stuff that I don’t care about.

hypeatei 2y ago

So glad I switched to Linux and got away from this garbage. Now I have to convince my employer to also allow Linux on their workstations. Windows 7 was the last good OS from MSFT but even that had a bit of telemetry.

SunlitCat 2y ago
If it is about telemetry and related stuff (like that activation), it would be Windows 2000. Sadly I never had the chance to experience it and went with Windows ME. :(
- linguae 2y ago
  Activation, introduced in Windows XP, is the main reason why I consider Windows 2000 the high water mark of Windows. The Windows NT lineup was truly no nonsense, no fuss. Unfortunately the merger of consumer-focused Windows (which used to be the 3.1/95/98/Me) lineup) and pro-focused Windows (which was the NT lineup plus Windows 2000) coincided with the introduction of many annoyances, starting with activation in Windows XP and later adding nagging prompts for updates and security-related things, telemetry, UI changes, and more. Sadly even macOS has gotten more annoying over the years with its various nagging prompts.
Randor 2y ago
What Windows 7 telemetry are you referring to? Other than WER, there was no telemetry in Windows 7 to my knowledge. There was an update a few years ago that back ported telemetry to Windows 7 right before the final stage of extended support and final EOL.
- jeroenhd 2y ago
  Back when Microsoft started pushing telemetry in Windows 10, they added additional telemetry to Windows 7 through updates. Not nearly as pervasive and omnipresent as with Windows 11, though; you can just remove the telemetry updates: https://gist.github.com/xvitaly/eafa75ed2cb79b3bd4e9 https://gist.github.com/xvitaly/eafa75ed2cb79b3bd4e9

overgard 2y ago

I hadn't heard of this feature before, but WTF? Who thought AI parsing everything you do on your system would be a good idea?! I want zero to do with this "feature".

superidiot1932 2y ago

Yeah this is it for me, cleaning up my windows installation and backing up my files, going to move to some linux distro this month.

GrayShade 2y ago

> To those that arrive here from any Youtube or Twitter posts, please know that disabling Recall via DISM works fine, and preserves the modern File Explorer (though some might consider this an anti-feature). CBS correctly disables it, and the disablement is preserved through reboots, just like with any other feature.

kobalsky 2y ago
> that disabling Recall via DISM works fine this whole deal with recall slowly creeping in after the initial rejection is the worst case of just-the-tip I've seen people accept. will anyone be surprised when it gets enabled in an update by mistake, not to mention by spyware.
DrammBA 2y ago
Also previous comment about the tool being updated: > the latest commit to the draft PR now does the following. It leaves Recall enabled, but then it disables it on the first run. During my testing, it kept the explorer look intact

imchillyb 2y ago

People aren’t people. They’re not citizens. We are consumers, labeled and binned. Our constitution might as well read: ‘We the Product…’.

DrillShopper 2y ago
We hold these truth self evident that all corporations are likely created in Delaware and domiciled in Ireland for tax purposes. They are endowed by their shareholders with certain unalienable rights, that among these are profit, lack of regulation, and the pursuit of infinite growth.

thomasahle 2y ago

For those who don't know, Microsoft Recall is a system that screenshots what you do every few seconds, and uses OpenAI's vision api to allow search on eveything you did in the past. There's an article from Sep 27th where they promise you'll be able to uninstall Recall: https://www.theverge.com/2024/9/27/24255721/microsoft-windows-recall-ai-security-improvements-overhaul-uninstall https://www.theverge.com/2024/9/27/24255721/microsoft-window... , not sure what that means for this explorer.exe dependency.

lostmsu 2y ago
It supposed to be local.
- skydhash 2y ago
  Which is equally bad. Why am I wasting CPU power on that?
  - goalieca 2y ago
    It sounds like an unnecessary security nightmare. Someone will figure out how to tap into this.
    - moffkalast 2y ago
      I think someone quickly realized it was all being stored in an unencrypted database on the machine when the first version launched, so anyone with direct access can just list through the whole thing.
- kobalsky 2y ago
  ~~it's supposed to be optional.~~ it's supposed to be local. <------ YOU ARE HERE you can supposedly disable it. it's supposed not to send your information to the cops if it's sees you being naughty.
  - whatshisface 2y ago

noncoml 2y ago

I thought I make a generic reply instead of replying at every comment below: People don't use Windows over Linux because they prefer the Windows environment/experience. They use it because of the applications, and to some degree the drivers, that are not available in Linux.

golf1052 2y ago
To the shock of some people as well, some people use Windows because they prefer it over other operating systems.
- pino82 2y ago
  Probably yes. Depending on your requirements (e.g. if cloud, spying, etc is all fine), it can indeed make sense. Windows has its strengths. But what I suspect: A much bigger cohort is people saying "I'm not forced, I just explicitly prefer it" although this is actually a lie. Some of them are aware of that, some not. Being forced to sth is not great. Not everyone is honest (or even aware) enough to admit it.

markus_zhang 2y ago

If it comes to Windows 10 I'll have to go for a Linux machine.

bee_rider 2y ago
Give it a try, dual boot.
- ZunarJ5 2y ago
  You don't even have to go that far: https://distrosea.com/ https://distrosea.com/
  - markus_zhang 2y ago
    Thanks. I already use Linux for my dev box so it's fine. Right now I'm just not motivated enough to use it in daily drive.

ChrisArchitect 2y ago

Can OP explain what they've linked to or further link to the actual comment discussing Recall.

ChrisArchitect 2y ago

Related: Controversial Windows Recall AI Search Tool Returns with Proof-of-Presence https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41684116 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41684116

G_o_D 2y ago

[flagged]

willsoon 2y ago

Participating in a thread that makes me feel a little better about myself.

G_o_D 2y ago

[flagged]

y2hhcmxlcw 2y ago

What about Attorneys and Doctors who have protected health information and client privileged information? Are they not to use Microsoft Products now? What about any company with Trade Secret information? Are they also not to use Microsoft Products now?

olyjohn 2y ago
This is the same question people have been asking since Microsoft started including Telemetry in Windows.
- t-writescode 2y ago
  Except now it's __literally__ taking screenshots and reading them. "Oh no it knows a program was run" is not 'as bad' of a HIIPA violation as, "Oh no, it's literally taking a screenshot, reading it and saving it".

bloopernova 2y ago

For those looking to dual boot but not deal with the hassle of Windows breaking boot sectors: https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/create-portable-windows-11-disk https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/create-portable-windows-... Rufus + Windows To Go + an external SSD = I'm able to use windows when I want, the rest of the time it stays in a drawer.

UberFly 2y ago

Despite lots of good info here, it's devolved into yet another "just switch to Linux" thread. Sigh.

bee_rider 2y ago
I wish people would just switch to Linux so they’d shut up about it. I use Linux every day, I love it, but it is a community project with rough edges and no customer service. Pretty small rough edges nowadays. But they are still there, and there’s no customer service. Always happy to see people join Linux, but slightly confused at the folks advertising it. Are they implicitly signing up to be the customer service for these folks who are used to an OS-as-a-product type setup?
- Barrin92 2y ago
  >Are they implicitly signing up to be the customer service for these folks who are used to an OS-as-a-product type setup? I mean first off, yes most people using Linux have no problem with helping people out, my guess is linux users are probably 100x more active on support platforms than anyone else. (if not more) But also, who on earth has Microsoft customer service? Big businesses sure, but do you think most Windows users get customer support, big tech companies stopped connecting you to a human being like ten years ago. Everyone just googles when something breaks no matter the OS. I'm just so tired of the meme that there is any meaningful difference at this point. I've been using stock Ubuntu Desktop for 12(?) years, out of the box, no weird tinkering. Do you know how often friends and family call me because something broke on their Windows machine and I'm the "tech guy"? This is the experience of every programmer I know. What difference does it make if they run Linux, yes stuff will break but we've been fixing stuff breaking anyway.
  - pino82 2y ago
    One of the most disappointing aspects of the Linux ecosystem is the 'community'. The self-proclaimed experts in forums who try to help people. I'm using Linux only since >20 years. I usually don't need them. And I learned soon to not involve them. Whenever I did, it was a pure waste of time.

ZunarJ5 2y ago

Is Ubuntu the best for a touchscreen? Is there a specific flavour people are happy with? I prefer to keep to Ubuntu if possible as I use it as my daily. I have a HP laptop I got a year or two ago with a pen. It's literally the only thing holding me back from switching on that machine. I have run debloat tools on it but Windows doesn't respect that with subsequent updates.

olyjohn 2y ago
I ran Ubuntu on a Surface Pro 2 like 6 years ago. Touchscreen seems to work as well as Windows as far as I can tell.
- ZunarJ5 2y ago
  This is good to hear. It seems built for it.

ZunarJ5 2y ago

If people would like to "try Linux before you buy," check out DistroSea! It spins up a virtual machine of whatever distro and flavour you choose to try. https://distrosea.com/ https://distrosea.com/

nunez 2y ago

Wow. Windows Explorer is literally spyware now. it's incredible to see how far Windows has slid down the tubes, and I say this as someone who LOVED Windows.

1vuio0pswjnm7 2y ago

Long ago when I last used it at home I used to run the Windows without explorer.exe. I believe I did it via editing a key or keys in the registry. Wonder if it still works today with more recent Windows versions.

sys_64738 2y ago

Isn't this the old trick MICROS~1 pulled trying to claim IE was part of the base OS. They cooked it so that IE was the DNS of the filemanager when upgrading to IE4.

sub7 2y ago

I just spent an hour and a half getting my friend's email account untied from my local Windows account after she typed it into Windows Store once. Involved having to remove all kinds of system files and many registry keys, some that did not contain the email string at all, but encrypted versions of it (IdentityCRL) This spyware is out of control. The worst part is they do all this and all their telemetry based products are still useless Clippy garbage that helps absolutely nobody do anything better or faster.