6 ms·

X reinstated in Brazil after complying with court demands

79 points by anigbrowl 2y ago

Pesthuf 2y ago
[flagged]
- ithkuil 2y ago
  The common trick is to do these things while there are more interesting things that will grab people's attention.
- bpodgursky 2y ago
  Elon Musk doesn't have an army, and Brazil does. So the guys with guns win? China made it clear that boycotting a country doesn't accomplish anything. Nobody supporting Elon on speech is upset that he bluffed and lost... that's life.
  - anigbrowl 2y ago
    Nobody is pointing a gun at him, they just told him that he couldn't do business there until he was compliant with the legal requirements. I am so sick of people hyperbolizing everything.
    - aeronaut80 2y ago
      > I am so sick of people hyperbolizing everything. Ironic
      - anigbrowl 2y ago
        Yes, I am using the same rhetorical technique ironically to point out how annoying it is.
    - seanw444 2y ago
      Devil's advocate: what the government says only matters because of fear of repercussion if they're not heeded. Because they're the guys with the guns, and the (increasingly under Lula) exclusive right to use them.
  - JohnMakin 2y ago
    > Nobody supporting Elon on speech is upset that he bluffed and lost.. I mean, is there anything Elon could do that would upset Elon supporters? This sentence is basically a tautology.
  - snakeyjake 2y ago
    > Nobody supporting Elon on speech The fact that anyone takes what Musk says about free speech at face value is astounding to me. The number of shenanigans that have occurred on Twitter to make some speech both freer and less free depending on the ideological bent of its operator is so voluminous that it cannot be easily counted.
    - matheusmoreira 2y ago
      I don't really know what it is that Musk does on his platform or why he does it. The Twitter-Brazil incident however is about free speech. Brazilian constitution says that any and all censorship of political speech is prohibited. These were political accounts. This judge, a government official, ordered their banishment from the platform. Political censorship.
      - snakeyjake 2y ago
        I’m not familiar with the specifics but a cursory examination indicates that the accounts were publishing libel. Libel is not now, has never been, and will never be protected speech. It also seems that Twitter failed on at least one occasion to appoint legal representation and I don’t know if that means counsel or a business point of contact so if this was whatever Brazil’s version of a default judgement is, that makes it even dumber. Regardless, if someone (in this case Musk) throws their lot in with people who unambiguously attempted a coup d’etat in the name of free speech, they should be examined more critically than usual.
        matheusmoreira 2y ago
        My examination indicated it was all due to "fake news" as determined by these judges. This is the first time I'm encountering the libel/defamation argument. I suppose it's impossible to know since I didn't witness it in real time and everything is secret. I don't believe what happened was a coup attempt. They occupied Brasília buildings, that's the standard brazillian protest, happened many times before. They wanted the military to seize power, and the military refused. They didn't try to seize power for themselves, they wanted the military to rule over them. That's a valid political position. A coup attempt is the military actually trying something. An actual coup is the military succeeding at it.
  - matheusmoreira 2y ago
    > Elon Musk doesn't have an army, and Brazil does. You're kidding, right? Brazilian army? What a joke. Besides, Musk is friends with US politicians. Recently showed up in a photo besides Trump himself. After this Twitter debacle, I've seen news about some republicans proposing laws that would deny the passports of foreign officials which implement censorship. A law that more or less targets these judges. A law that is essentially beneath the notice of most americans. It caused these brazilian judges here to basically throw a temper tantrum in public. "Unacceptable", one of them called it. As if there was even a single thing he could do about it. Every year the US puts us in a little copyright infringement watchlist, so it's not like they don't care when our actions affect the american economy. I wonder how they feel about a brazilian judge outright stealing millions from american companies via completely arbitrary fines for not complying with orders whose legality is questionable.
- seanw444 2y ago
  I do wish he would've just pulled out of Brazil on a principle basis, but I can't blame him business-wise for doing this.
- limapedro 2y ago
  it's a complicated issue, I just want twitter back to keep with the current papers.
- mr90210 2y ago
  lol. The sad part is that I as non-Brazilian had do tell a Brazilian friend that there was no way the genius would get away with making fun of officials of a country such a Brazil. I am happy they held their own against a bully such the genius. As for the internal issues in Brazil, I told my friend that Elon doesn’t give a crap about it, those issues are for the people in Brazil to solve.
sigmar 2y ago
>“Although X may not be a top priority for most advertisers in Brazil, the platform needs them more than they need it.” Really does seem like it came down to this point. Musk hoped Brazilian users would get angry with the government, and they just downloaded bluesky instead. Musk lost a month of Brazilian revenue and gained nothing. I followed some Brazilians on my (mostly unused) bluesky account. Will be interesting to see if they stick around there, return to twitter, or use both.
- MuffinFlavored 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - metadat 2y ago
    See also: The New Age: SV Politics https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41765734 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41765734 - Oct 2024 (306 comments)
  - jrflowers 2y ago
    The influx of Brazilian users to BlueSky was pretty public(1). > What's the word for posts like these online? The word is “post”. When someone writes a thing and puts it online with or without a supporting body of evidence they are engaged in posting. For example you have posited without evidence that there is a need for a special word for a post without evidence. I don’t know if that claim is true or false but it is, undoubtedly, a post 1 https://www.theverge.com/2024/8/30/24232561/brazil-x-ban-sending-people-bluesky https://www.theverge.com/2024/8/30/24232561/brazil-x-ban-sen...
    - maxerickson 2y ago
      Or just "conversation".
    - JellyBeanThief 2y ago
      > The word is “post”. Most posts on reddit aren't called posts. They're called comments. And nobody called posts on Twitter "posts" either. They were tweets. If you go around talking about a website's posts, and the people who use the website call them something else, you're going to sound uninformed.
xyst 2y ago
[flagged]
declan_roberts 2y ago
[flagged]
- threeseed 2y ago
  a) Twitter was and to a lesser extent still is an important platform for news and information. And his role in furthering misinformation and division has influenced many people. b) Musk’s unpredictable antics e.g. going to Trump rallys and setting up SuperPAC, being a government contractor and talking about Kamala assassinations is controversial and often newsworthy. c) Rumors about Musk working with JD Vance and Peter Thiel to effectively run the government on behalf of Trump.
- p1necone 2y ago
  It's morbid fascination for me. Up until a few years ago his outward facing persona/"brand" was just a regular tech billionaire occasionally spinning up interesting new stuff. And then almost overnight it's like he had some kind of mental break and started saying and doing completely nonsensical things. Why? What happened? Was he always like this behind the scenes and it was hidden from us or did something happen to him?
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
[flagged]
- rwietter 2y ago
  This is just a political fight to see who's got more power. Elon Musk isn’t really defending free speech — he follows authoritarian orders in other countries [1]. He’s just looking out for his own political interests and turning X into a playground for his political ideology. And regarding the ban, yeah, there are definitely violations of free speech, just like in a bunch of other democracies, like the U.S., which banned TikTok [2]. [1]: https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/internacional/en/world/2024/04/musk-fulfilled-hundreds-of-content-removal-orders-from-x-outside-brazil-without-accusing-censorship.shtml https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/internacional/en/world/2024/04... [2]: https://www.npr.org/2024/04/24/1246663779/biden-ban-tiktok-us https://www.npr.org/2024/04/24/1246663779/biden-ban-tiktok-u...
  - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
    No, this is false. Censorship was made legal in India through various changes in law in the last few years. Twitter actually was fighting the Indian government in courts over censorship orders after Musk’s acquisition. They lost the case ultimately, and that was in part because the laws were changed to grant the government those powers explicitly. That’s different from the false narrative that they just cave into orders elsewhere. The censorship performed by Moraes is clearly unconstitutional - it violates numerous parts of the constitution, just within article 5.
- matheusmoreira 2y ago
  No idea why you're getting downvoted. You're right. The brazilian constitution literally contains the words: > Any and all censorship of political and artistic nature is prohibited These accounts were engaged in political speech. The judge ordered their banishment. This is a form of censorship of political nature. Therefore what he did is unconstitutional. It's a very simple argument that I make every time the topic comes up. Nobody has refuted it to this day. I've had people on this site cite lesser laws, irrelevant laws, appeals to the authority of the judge... But they haven't refuted it.
decremental 2y ago
[dead]
bozonaro 2y ago
here we go again: criminal speech != free speech. A lot of, if not all of Alexandre de Moraes's decisions are around a real crime that happened Jan 8 2022 with a real coup attempt in Brazil (federal buildings were severely damaged). Some people pretend this didn't happen and come here and hide arguments behind free speech. These "censored" political influencers are investigated under the umbrella of this major case based on people who potentially had a major impact on influencing very simple people to commit crimes against democracy. Brazilian democracy is still at risk and should get support from digital platforms so we don't end up in a digital wild-wild west. This is still under secrecy investigation and the decisions cannot be judged by people who don't even have access to all the case material to begin with. I'm happy that Elon did the right thing. Hope he keeps collaborating with the law so we all can live in peace.
- matheusmoreira 2y ago
  There was no "coup attempt". There was a protest. Occupying and damaging Brasília buildings is essentially the standard brazilian protest. It's happened before. You call it a coup because they wanted the military to seize power. They didn't try to seize power for themselves, they wanted the military to rule over them. That's a valid political position. A coup attempt is the military actually trying something. An actual coup is the military succeeding at it. A thousand people with bibles and flags is not a coup or even an attempt at a coup. It's just a protest.
  - augusto-moura 2y ago
    I don't believe he is only talking about the occupation of the parliament, which in my opinion could be considered a coup attempt, although a very disorganized and ultimately failed attempt. But he is also talking about the leaked documents and dossiers that are being investigated as means to a coup. Organized by some high level military and other influential people, including the previous president. Edit: more info at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Brazilian_coup_plot https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Brazilian_coup_plot
    - 2y ago

79 points by anigbrowl 2y ago

Pesthuf 2y ago

[flagged]

ithkuil 2y ago
The common trick is to do these things while there are more interesting things that will grab people's attention.
bpodgursky 2y ago
Elon Musk doesn't have an army, and Brazil does. So the guys with guns win? China made it clear that boycotting a country doesn't accomplish anything. Nobody supporting Elon on speech is upset that he bluffed and lost... that's life.
- anigbrowl 2y ago
  Nobody is pointing a gun at him, they just told him that he couldn't do business there until he was compliant with the legal requirements. I am so sick of people hyperbolizing everything.
  - aeronaut80 2y ago
    > I am so sick of people hyperbolizing everything. Ironic
    - anigbrowl 2y ago
      Yes, I am using the same rhetorical technique ironically to point out how annoying it is.
  - seanw444 2y ago
    Devil's advocate: what the government says only matters because of fear of repercussion if they're not heeded. Because they're the guys with the guns, and the (increasingly under Lula) exclusive right to use them.
- JohnMakin 2y ago
  > Nobody supporting Elon on speech is upset that he bluffed and lost.. I mean, is there anything Elon could do that would upset Elon supporters? This sentence is basically a tautology.
- snakeyjake 2y ago
  > Nobody supporting Elon on speech The fact that anyone takes what Musk says about free speech at face value is astounding to me. The number of shenanigans that have occurred on Twitter to make some speech both freer and less free depending on the ideological bent of its operator is so voluminous that it cannot be easily counted.
  - matheusmoreira 2y ago
    I don't really know what it is that Musk does on his platform or why he does it. The Twitter-Brazil incident however is about free speech. Brazilian constitution says that any and all censorship of political speech is prohibited. These were political accounts. This judge, a government official, ordered their banishment from the platform. Political censorship.
    - snakeyjake 2y ago
      I’m not familiar with the specifics but a cursory examination indicates that the accounts were publishing libel. Libel is not now, has never been, and will never be protected speech. It also seems that Twitter failed on at least one occasion to appoint legal representation and I don’t know if that means counsel or a business point of contact so if this was whatever Brazil’s version of a default judgement is, that makes it even dumber. Regardless, if someone (in this case Musk) throws their lot in with people who unambiguously attempted a coup d’etat in the name of free speech, they should be examined more critically than usual.
      - matheusmoreira 2y ago
        My examination indicated it was all due to "fake news" as determined by these judges. This is the first time I'm encountering the libel/defamation argument. I suppose it's impossible to know since I didn't witness it in real time and everything is secret. I don't believe what happened was a coup attempt. They occupied Brasília buildings, that's the standard brazillian protest, happened many times before. They wanted the military to seize power, and the military refused. They didn't try to seize power for themselves, they wanted the military to rule over them. That's a valid political position. A coup attempt is the military actually trying something. An actual coup is the military succeeding at it.
- matheusmoreira 2y ago
  > Elon Musk doesn't have an army, and Brazil does. You're kidding, right? Brazilian army? What a joke. Besides, Musk is friends with US politicians. Recently showed up in a photo besides Trump himself. After this Twitter debacle, I've seen news about some republicans proposing laws that would deny the passports of foreign officials which implement censorship. A law that more or less targets these judges. A law that is essentially beneath the notice of most americans. It caused these brazilian judges here to basically throw a temper tantrum in public. "Unacceptable", one of them called it. As if there was even a single thing he could do about it. Every year the US puts us in a little copyright infringement watchlist, so it's not like they don't care when our actions affect the american economy. I wonder how they feel about a brazilian judge outright stealing millions from american companies via completely arbitrary fines for not complying with orders whose legality is questionable.
seanw444 2y ago
I do wish he would've just pulled out of Brazil on a principle basis, but I can't blame him business-wise for doing this.
limapedro 2y ago
it's a complicated issue, I just want twitter back to keep with the current papers.
mr90210 2y ago
lol. The sad part is that I as non-Brazilian had do tell a Brazilian friend that there was no way the genius would get away with making fun of officials of a country such a Brazil. I am happy they held their own against a bully such the genius. As for the internal issues in Brazil, I told my friend that Elon doesn’t give a crap about it, those issues are for the people in Brazil to solve.

sigmar 2y ago

>“Although X may not be a top priority for most advertisers in Brazil, the platform needs them more than they need it.” Really does seem like it came down to this point. Musk hoped Brazilian users would get angry with the government, and they just downloaded bluesky instead. Musk lost a month of Brazilian revenue and gained nothing. I followed some Brazilians on my (mostly unused) bluesky account. Will be interesting to see if they stick around there, return to twitter, or use both.

MuffinFlavored 2y ago
[flagged]
- metadat 2y ago
  See also: The New Age: SV Politics https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41765734 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41765734 - Oct 2024 (306 comments)
- jrflowers 2y ago
  The influx of Brazilian users to BlueSky was pretty public(1). > What's the word for posts like these online? The word is “post”. When someone writes a thing and puts it online with or without a supporting body of evidence they are engaged in posting. For example you have posited without evidence that there is a need for a special word for a post without evidence. I don’t know if that claim is true or false but it is, undoubtedly, a post 1 https://www.theverge.com/2024/8/30/24232561/brazil-x-ban-sending-people-bluesky https://www.theverge.com/2024/8/30/24232561/brazil-x-ban-sen...
  - maxerickson 2y ago
    Or just "conversation".
  - JellyBeanThief 2y ago
    > The word is “post”. Most posts on reddit aren't called posts. They're called comments. And nobody called posts on Twitter "posts" either. They were tweets. If you go around talking about a website's posts, and the people who use the website call them something else, you're going to sound uninformed.

xyst 2y ago

[flagged]

declan_roberts 2y ago

[flagged]

threeseed 2y ago
a) Twitter was and to a lesser extent still is an important platform for news and information. And his role in furthering misinformation and division has influenced many people. b) Musk’s unpredictable antics e.g. going to Trump rallys and setting up SuperPAC, being a government contractor and talking about Kamala assassinations is controversial and often newsworthy. c) Rumors about Musk working with JD Vance and Peter Thiel to effectively run the government on behalf of Trump.
p1necone 2y ago
It's morbid fascination for me. Up until a few years ago his outward facing persona/"brand" was just a regular tech billionaire occasionally spinning up interesting new stuff. And then almost overnight it's like he had some kind of mental break and started saying and doing completely nonsensical things. Why? What happened? Was he always like this behind the scenes and it was hidden from us or did something happen to him?

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

[flagged]

rwietter 2y ago
This is just a political fight to see who's got more power. Elon Musk isn’t really defending free speech — he follows authoritarian orders in other countries [1]. He’s just looking out for his own political interests and turning X into a playground for his political ideology. And regarding the ban, yeah, there are definitely violations of free speech, just like in a bunch of other democracies, like the U.S., which banned TikTok [2]. [1]: https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/internacional/en/world/2024/04/musk-fulfilled-hundreds-of-content-removal-orders-from-x-outside-brazil-without-accusing-censorship.shtml https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/internacional/en/world/2024/04... [2]: https://www.npr.org/2024/04/24/1246663779/biden-ban-tiktok-us https://www.npr.org/2024/04/24/1246663779/biden-ban-tiktok-u...
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  No, this is false. Censorship was made legal in India through various changes in law in the last few years. Twitter actually was fighting the Indian government in courts over censorship orders after Musk’s acquisition. They lost the case ultimately, and that was in part because the laws were changed to grant the government those powers explicitly. That’s different from the false narrative that they just cave into orders elsewhere. The censorship performed by Moraes is clearly unconstitutional - it violates numerous parts of the constitution, just within article 5.
matheusmoreira 2y ago
No idea why you're getting downvoted. You're right. The brazilian constitution literally contains the words: > Any and all censorship of political and artistic nature is prohibited These accounts were engaged in political speech. The judge ordered their banishment. This is a form of censorship of political nature. Therefore what he did is unconstitutional. It's a very simple argument that I make every time the topic comes up. Nobody has refuted it to this day. I've had people on this site cite lesser laws, irrelevant laws, appeals to the authority of the judge... But they haven't refuted it.

decremental 2y ago

[dead]

bozonaro 2y ago

here we go again: criminal speech != free speech. A lot of, if not all of Alexandre de Moraes's decisions are around a real crime that happened Jan 8 2022 with a real coup attempt in Brazil (federal buildings were severely damaged). Some people pretend this didn't happen and come here and hide arguments behind free speech. These "censored" political influencers are investigated under the umbrella of this major case based on people who potentially had a major impact on influencing very simple people to commit crimes against democracy. Brazilian democracy is still at risk and should get support from digital platforms so we don't end up in a digital wild-wild west. This is still under secrecy investigation and the decisions cannot be judged by people who don't even have access to all the case material to begin with. I'm happy that Elon did the right thing. Hope he keeps collaborating with the law so we all can live in peace.

matheusmoreira 2y ago
There was no "coup attempt". There was a protest. Occupying and damaging Brasília buildings is essentially the standard brazilian protest. It's happened before. You call it a coup because they wanted the military to seize power. They didn't try to seize power for themselves, they wanted the military to rule over them. That's a valid political position. A coup attempt is the military actually trying something. An actual coup is the military succeeding at it. A thousand people with bibles and flags is not a coup or even an attempt at a coup. It's just a protest.
- augusto-moura 2y ago
  I don't believe he is only talking about the occupation of the parliament, which in my opinion could be considered a coup attempt, although a very disorganized and ultimately failed attempt. But he is also talking about the leaked documents and dossiers that are being investigated as means to a coup. Organized by some high level military and other influential people, including the previous president. Edit: more info at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Brazilian_coup_plot https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Brazilian_coup_plot
  - 2y ago