6 ms·

From the article: >Gen Z and Gen Alpha don’t cow to authority for authority’s sake. They simply won’t do things they don’t want to do, and I actually kinda lov

From the article: >Gen Z and Gen Alpha don’t cow to authority for authority’s sake. They simply won’t do things they don’t want to do, and I actually kinda love that. This, in response to a story about Gen Z and Gen Alpha at elite universities. Why are they attending the elites, then, if not to become part of the power apparatus?

ink_13 2y ago
This observation could have been made about young people throughout the ages. Disrespect for authority is nothing new.
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  > Disrespect for authority is nothing new. It is still a perfectly valid argument to analyze whether disrespect for authority has increased or decreased over the years; or whether the disrespect has reached the point it threatens their ability to become functioning adults.
  - 9dev 2y ago
    You can sure make that argument, but it's still only a rephrasing of the millenia-old meme of old people complaining about the lack of respect in young people. No, young people are not in danger of being unable to become functional adults, no more than any generation before them (of which the same has been said). Society changes, you're old, young people are doing things differently. The wheel keeps on turning.
    - gjsman-1000 2y ago
      This is actually a fairly ridiculous argument in my view - look at what happened to every country before ours. They failed. Why did they fail? Obviously, famine, wars, etc had a part; but as the saying goes: Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.
      - shadowgovt 2y ago
        It's a pat saying, but I don't think history bears it out. The German people after World War I were suffering. Significant reparation burdens had been placed upon them. They were starving and angry. These should have been the "hard times that create strong men," yes? It created the Nazis and they were defeated militarily. Seems something went off in step 2 there; nobody considers Germany during World War II "Good times."
      - navane 2y ago
        Functioning adults are paving the roads with good intentions.
      - sxyuan 2y ago
        This is a popular history cliche that isn't grounded in actual history. See, e.g., https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-part-i-war-at-the-dawn-of-civilization/ https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-... for an accessible critique by a professional historian. I do agree with your broader point though that it's worth asking if society is getting more illiberal and intolerant of opposing views. It's not just a "young people these days" kind of thing.
      - Tyr42 2y ago
        Ooh ooh, time to pitch the acoup for that https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-part-i-war-at-the-dawn-of-civilization/ https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-... That saying is ahistorical and Bret goes to great lengths to show where it fails.
      - lcuff 2y ago
        "Hard times create strong men". At what age do the hard times start for this to be true? Do children who are victims of abuse become strong? Some perhaps, but I suspect not more than a control group. Do the hard times occur when the people are full adults? Anecdotally in my life, I've seen hard times be precursors to people cope by using drink and drugs, and seen hard times to lead other people to step up to the challenge. And what is the definition of strong, here? Seems so vague as to be pointless. This old saying seems like complete bunk to me.
    - bigstrat2003 2y ago
      Any time people bring this argument up I don't think they realize how much it can have the opposite effect of what they intend. I can see, with my own eyes, how much my generation (millennials) has fallen short compared to our parents. Let alone the zoomers etc, who seem to be on an even worse trajectory. When someone points out "people have made these claims for millennia", I don't take that as evidence I'm wrong - I realize that perhaps people have been right for millennia.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- drawkward 2y ago
  My point is not the disrespect for authority. I am suggesting that kids at specifically elite universities aspire to be the power, and therefore question the author's contention that this has anything to do with disrespect for authority.
mikeryan 2y ago
Having the desire to be able to choose doesn’t change the available choices. This seems to be a false equivalency.
ziddoap 2y ago
>if not to become part of the power apparatus? I would have gone to an elite university if I had the option to. Not to become part of the "power apparatus" but because I would have a higher chance of making enough money to purchase luxuries like a place to live.
- drawkward 2y ago
  That is literally part and parcel of the power apparatus. Money is power.
  - ziddoap 2y ago
    Improving your chances at making a decent living is not the same as striving to become part of the power apparatus, despite the fact that both need money.
    - stvltvs 2y ago
      First you make the money to buy cool stuff, then you use your power to protect your money to continue buying stuff. Welcome to the power apparatus.
      - ziddoap 2y ago
        If your definition of striving to be a part of the power apparatus is simply using money, then sure, I stand corrected.
    - drawkward 2y ago
      Why do you think an elite university would give you a greater chance of improvement than a community college?
      - ziddoap 2y ago
        Well, mainly because employers are more likely to hire a candidate from Harvard than they are from East Mississippi Community College.
eej71 2y ago
I must admit my cultural observation about those cohorts is they are ideologically docile and easily molded into whatever the establishment deems the correct ideology to uphold. As one data point, I offer up their penchant for policing soon to be published YA fiction and whether it adheres to the prevailing orthodoxy.
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  > I offer up their penchant for policing soon to be published YA fiction and whether it adheres to the prevailing orthodoxy. Sorry what does this mean?
  - SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
    The YA publishing industry has a recurring phenomenon of new books getting spiked at the finish line due to social media arguments over identity politics. (https://www.newyorker.com/books/under-review/in-ya-where-is-the-line-between-criticism-and-cancel-culture https://www.newyorker.com/books/under-review/in-ya-where-is-...)
  - b800h 2y ago
    IIRC there's rather a lot of "cancellation" of authors in the YA fiction market.
- tolerance 2y ago
  I think that the confusion comes from the problem of identifying who "the authority" and "the establishment" is today. As all the past symbols of rebellion are becoming co-opted and its wearers are assimilating and become "The Them™" (formerly known as, "The Man™"). It doesn't help that there is a dearth of "new" ideologies or trends that the younger generation can discover and iterate over. The continuity of history that is enabled by technologies like the internet and the collective knowledge of older generations, has almost ossified the innovative properties of the kind of rebellion that a hip academic would find quaint and nostalgic of the period of youth that was the springboard to their own assimilation. All that remains for most people is to reach for absurdity. Which itself is absurd.
everybodyknows 2y ago
> cow to An apparent conflation of "cow", v.t. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cow with "kowtow": https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kowtow The author herself exemplifies modern academia's reduced standard of literacy.
- dgfitz 2y ago
  You mean this: > And that’s a good thing, since Gen Z and Gen Alpha don’t cow to authority for authority’s sake. As used by this definition: https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/cow_2#:~:text=%E2%80%8Bto%20frighten%20somebody%20in,cowed%20by%20people%20in%20authority https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/eng.... Is correct. Maybe grab a mirror and stop pointing fingers?
  - drawkward 2y ago
    No, its not correct. Gen Z and Gen Alpha are not doing the cowing. If you cow, you intimidate someone else. That is not what is happening in the excerpted sentence. Rather, they are the intended targets of the cowing, which would require the use of "be," for example: > Gen Z and Gen Alpha won't be cowed by authority for authority's sake.
    - dgfitz 2y ago
      You didn’t read the link huh?
      - drawkward 2y ago
        Every example that agrees with you is preceded by the verb "be" which is not used by the author of the article in question. Not only did I read the link, I understood it, which seems to have evaded you.
Workaccount2 2y ago
Everyone is fighting for power. There is a great quote that has stuck with me, although I forget it's origin, that goes "My life turned up-side down when I realized that those fighting the power were actually just fighting for the power."

ink_13 2y ago

This observation could have been made about young people throughout the ages. Disrespect for authority is nothing new.

gjsman-1000 2y ago
> Disrespect for authority is nothing new. It is still a perfectly valid argument to analyze whether disrespect for authority has increased or decreased over the years; or whether the disrespect has reached the point it threatens their ability to become functioning adults.
- 9dev 2y ago
  You can sure make that argument, but it's still only a rephrasing of the millenia-old meme of old people complaining about the lack of respect in young people. No, young people are not in danger of being unable to become functional adults, no more than any generation before them (of which the same has been said). Society changes, you're old, young people are doing things differently. The wheel keeps on turning.
  - gjsman-1000 2y ago
    This is actually a fairly ridiculous argument in my view - look at what happened to every country before ours. They failed. Why did they fail? Obviously, famine, wars, etc had a part; but as the saying goes: Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.
    - shadowgovt 2y ago
      It's a pat saying, but I don't think history bears it out. The German people after World War I were suffering. Significant reparation burdens had been placed upon them. They were starving and angry. These should have been the "hard times that create strong men," yes? It created the Nazis and they were defeated militarily. Seems something went off in step 2 there; nobody considers Germany during World War II "Good times."
    - navane 2y ago
      Functioning adults are paving the roads with good intentions.
    - sxyuan 2y ago
      This is a popular history cliche that isn't grounded in actual history. See, e.g., https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-part-i-war-at-the-dawn-of-civilization/ https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-... for an accessible critique by a professional historian. I do agree with your broader point though that it's worth asking if society is getting more illiberal and intolerant of opposing views. It's not just a "young people these days" kind of thing.
    - Tyr42 2y ago
      Ooh ooh, time to pitch the acoup for that https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-part-i-war-at-the-dawn-of-civilization/ https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-... That saying is ahistorical and Bret goes to great lengths to show where it fails.
    - lcuff 2y ago
      "Hard times create strong men". At what age do the hard times start for this to be true? Do children who are victims of abuse become strong? Some perhaps, but I suspect not more than a control group. Do the hard times occur when the people are full adults? Anecdotally in my life, I've seen hard times be precursors to people cope by using drink and drugs, and seen hard times to lead other people to step up to the challenge. And what is the definition of strong, here? Seems so vague as to be pointless. This old saying seems like complete bunk to me.
  - bigstrat2003 2y ago
    Any time people bring this argument up I don't think they realize how much it can have the opposite effect of what they intend. I can see, with my own eyes, how much my generation (millennials) has fallen short compared to our parents. Let alone the zoomers etc, who seem to be on an even worse trajectory. When someone points out "people have made these claims for millennia", I don't take that as evidence I'm wrong - I realize that perhaps people have been right for millennia.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
drawkward 2y ago
My point is not the disrespect for authority. I am suggesting that kids at specifically elite universities aspire to be the power, and therefore question the author's contention that this has anything to do with disrespect for authority.

mikeryan 2y ago

Having the desire to be able to choose doesn’t change the available choices. This seems to be a false equivalency.

ziddoap 2y ago

>if not to become part of the power apparatus? I would have gone to an elite university if I had the option to. Not to become part of the "power apparatus" but because I would have a higher chance of making enough money to purchase luxuries like a place to live.

drawkward 2y ago
That is literally part and parcel of the power apparatus. Money is power.
- ziddoap 2y ago
  Improving your chances at making a decent living is not the same as striving to become part of the power apparatus, despite the fact that both need money.
  - stvltvs 2y ago
    First you make the money to buy cool stuff, then you use your power to protect your money to continue buying stuff. Welcome to the power apparatus.
    - ziddoap 2y ago
      If your definition of striving to be a part of the power apparatus is simply using money, then sure, I stand corrected.
  - drawkward 2y ago
    Why do you think an elite university would give you a greater chance of improvement than a community college?
    - ziddoap 2y ago
      Well, mainly because employers are more likely to hire a candidate from Harvard than they are from East Mississippi Community College.

eej71 2y ago

I must admit my cultural observation about those cohorts is they are ideologically docile and easily molded into whatever the establishment deems the correct ideology to uphold. As one data point, I offer up their penchant for policing soon to be published YA fiction and whether it adheres to the prevailing orthodoxy.

giraffe_lady 2y ago
> I offer up their penchant for policing soon to be published YA fiction and whether it adheres to the prevailing orthodoxy. Sorry what does this mean?
- SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
  The YA publishing industry has a recurring phenomenon of new books getting spiked at the finish line due to social media arguments over identity politics. (https://www.newyorker.com/books/under-review/in-ya-where-is-the-line-between-criticism-and-cancel-culture https://www.newyorker.com/books/under-review/in-ya-where-is-...)
- b800h 2y ago
  IIRC there's rather a lot of "cancellation" of authors in the YA fiction market.
tolerance 2y ago
I think that the confusion comes from the problem of identifying who "the authority" and "the establishment" is today. As all the past symbols of rebellion are becoming co-opted and its wearers are assimilating and become "The Them™" (formerly known as, "The Man™"). It doesn't help that there is a dearth of "new" ideologies or trends that the younger generation can discover and iterate over. The continuity of history that is enabled by technologies like the internet and the collective knowledge of older generations, has almost ossified the innovative properties of the kind of rebellion that a hip academic would find quaint and nostalgic of the period of youth that was the springboard to their own assimilation. All that remains for most people is to reach for absurdity. Which itself is absurd.

everybodyknows 2y ago

> cow to An apparent conflation of "cow", v.t. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cow with "kowtow": https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kowtow The author herself exemplifies modern academia's reduced standard of literacy.

dgfitz 2y ago
You mean this: > And that’s a good thing, since Gen Z and Gen Alpha don’t cow to authority for authority’s sake. As used by this definition: https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/cow_2#:~:text=%E2%80%8Bto%20frighten%20somebody%20in,cowed%20by%20people%20in%20authority https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/eng.... Is correct. Maybe grab a mirror and stop pointing fingers?
- drawkward 2y ago
  No, its not correct. Gen Z and Gen Alpha are not doing the cowing. If you cow, you intimidate someone else. That is not what is happening in the excerpted sentence. Rather, they are the intended targets of the cowing, which would require the use of "be," for example: > Gen Z and Gen Alpha won't be cowed by authority for authority's sake.
  - dgfitz 2y ago
    You didn’t read the link huh?
    - drawkward 2y ago
      Every example that agrees with you is preceded by the verb "be" which is not used by the author of the article in question. Not only did I read the link, I understood it, which seems to have evaded you.

Workaccount2 2y ago

Everyone is fighting for power. There is a great quote that has stuck with me, although I forget it's origin, that goes "My life turned up-side down when I realized that those fighting the power were actually just fighting for the power."