26 ms·
"The best book I've ever read was Atlas Shrugged in 8th grade. Changed my life." Not because I remember anything about it, or believe anything it espouses, or
by tb_technical 2y ago
"The best book I've ever read was Atlas Shrugged in 8th grade. Changed my life."
Not because I remember anything about it, or believe anything it espouses, or even like it all that much, but because it's a useful filter for obnoxious people in meatspace.
If someone I don't know too well asks me what my favorite book is, I say Atlas Shrugged. If they react inappropriately, I'll be cordial and treat them with respect, but I don't want to be friends. If they're way too supportive - the same rule applies.
If they're critical in a way I can appreciate, then I know they can either tolerate ideas they hate or have the social accumen to not go too hard in the paint early on in a relationahip. Really, I'm just looking for people who won't jump down my throat on a faux pas.
Later on in the relationship I'll tell them my actual favorite book, "A Canticle for Leibowitz", or "Neuromancer", or "The Dying Earth" (my opinion changes based on my mood).
- LZ_Khan 2y agoOoh I love this take.
- cactacea 2y ago> "The best book I've ever read was Atlas Shrugged in 8th grade. Changed my life." "huh, ok" > Really, I'm just looking for people who won't jump down my throat on a faux pas. I think you're dismissing the people such as myself that would note you as an idiot without comment and move on wanting nothing to do with you. Edit: tests and trick questions with people you just met is an ineffective way to navigate the world. My 2c
- bitcoin_anon 2y agoYou just failed the test.
- cactacea 2y agoGood. I don't want anything to do with people that "test" others like this. You cannot do so without making assumptions about intent.
- pc86 2y agoI'm of two minds on this. On one hand, yes you probably don't want to go through life "testing" people in this way as I'm sure there are some unintended consequences of doing so and you probably end up with kind of a boring circle of people around you. On the other hand, I would never want to be friends with someone who thinks someone is an idiot because they liked a particular book. "You liked this thing I don't like and therefore I want nothing to do with you" is extremely childish. So it would seem to have exactly the intended effect in this case.
- EFreethought 2y agoI am guessing you have never met someone who actually did like "Atlas Shrugged". The fact is, some people deserve harsh judgement. Including people who lie to someone and think they are morally superior for doing so.
- kbelder 2y agoI liked Atlas Shrugged.
- AlotOfReading 2y agoWhy? What redeeming qualities does it have that make you prefer it to less mediocre books?
- 0xBDB 2y agoNot the person you were responding to, but if you ignore the hundred-page speech (which isn't that difficult to do) it's a fairly serviceable pulp sci-fi romance novel. It's far from Shakespeare and far from my favorite thing I've ever read, but it'll do in a pinch. I don't care for the philosophy/politics, but I've read a lot of good sci-fi that I didn't care for the philosophy behind. I like Starship Troopers, which isn't as fascist as some people think but is certainly right-wing. I like Orson Scott Card, regardless of what I think of his opinions on gay people. I like the Culture novels, which are lowkey anarcho-communist. I like China Mieville, and he's an unsubtle hardcore Marxist. Those are all much better than Rand, but not totally out of the ballpark (I think the Fountainhead is actually much better written than Atlas Shrugged). I agree with the original thread comment: people who can't separate literary and political merit are usually pretty tiresome in lots of other ways.
- contagiousflow 2y agoIf the test is an insincere answer to a question that may tell me a lot about your worldview, then I'm fine failing it. I would rather know genuine people.
- r00fus 2y agoIf we're doing litmus tests, your handle is almost certainly going to get you ignored by a lot of people.
- znpy 2y agoI wanted to post something similar. It's crazy how many people essentially jumped at their throat with obnoxious comments and even outright ridiculing the poster (see the "checkers/chess" comment as an example). Quite literally the author explained the whole reasoning and they still "failed the test". I haven't even read atlas shrugged but I guess at this point I'm curious to read it and possibly adopt a similar strategy: it's clearly working way better than intended.
- travisjungroth 2y agoI don’t want to pass this test. Someone who uses one of our first interactions to test how tolerant I am of Objectivism removing themselves from my life is an ideal outcome.
- cactacea 2y agoLol yes, so much this
- kbelder 2y agoIt wasn't a test about Objectivism. It was about ideological intolerance and zealotry in general. Note that you could fail it by whether you're pro or con Objectivism.
- travisjungroth 2y agoMaybe that’s the intention of the test, but that’s not what actually happened. Atlas Shrugged was the only subject in the question. Whether they generalize from that one example is up to them. You can test someone’s general health with an eye exam, but it’s still an eye exam.
- tb_technical 2y agoDon't let me dissuade you, but it's not a very good read. There's a reason I forgot almost all of it. But if you like her long-winded style, have fun! It's a long one.
- 2y ago
- mondobe 2y agoAnd you just lost The Game.
- gadders 2y agoI think you are proving his point.
- cactacea 2y agoYou're free to have your own perspective of course. I would suggest you re-read my post
- ecocentrik 2y agoI have to agree. Basing any of your life decisions on quick hacks with bad assumptions seems like a fast way to a mediocre outcome.
- uoaei 2y agoWelcome to the techie obsession with heuristics.
- anonymoushn 2y ago> Edit: tests and trick questions with people you just met is an ineffective way to navigate the world. My 2c Then it sounds like you won't ask someone their favorite book and write them off entirely if they say it's a raunchy romance novel about industrialists?
- toast0 2y agoI liked the parts about the railway signaling, and suffered through all the multi-page anti-regulatory rants in the middle of lovemaking. Looking for recommendations for entertaining tales of signal networks. :P
- DurtEetr 2y agoGoing Postal by Terry Pratchett has my favorite entertaining read about signaling networks. In addition to the invention of a working mail system, you’ll read descriptions of semaphore towers working in a way that is similar to the Telegraph, except with light rather than pulsed waves over wire. It’s also hilariously funny and deeply philosophical at times. I recommend it wholeheartedly.
- toast0 2y agoThanks! From the blurb, this looks perfect, and I've been meaning to read some Terry Pratchett. I really enjoyed being a substitute postal worker in Yoku's Island Express.
- vizzier 2y agoEvery book is unique, but they all share his unique philosophy and wit. Highly recommend any of his works. The more you read of discworld the more of a world it will build, but none are so highly coupled that they can't be read independently.
- tb_technical 2y agoPratchett wrote some amazing books. And if you're into animation (especially older animation), you can find the old discworld animated movies on YouTube. The first discworld book I read was Thief of Time, and I've been hooked ever since
- yogurtboy 2y agoTotally agree. While the logic of the comment wasn't bad, that's just a weird maniuplative style of social engineering.
- JohnAaronNelson 2y agoThinking one step ahead instead of two
- booleandilemma 2y agoWell done OP, this cactacea guy does not seem like someone you'd want to be friends with :)
- triceratops 2y agocactacea said they would neither jump down OP's throat, nor show an excessive amount of interest. That puts them firmly into friendship material territory for OP. Not sure how it's a helpful test.
- dmitrygr 2y ago> I think you're dismissing the people such as myself that would note you as an idiot without comment and move on wanting nothing to do with you. Not OP. But I would say the filter is working. If you would treat somebody like an idiot for liking a book you don’t like, I indeed, would want you filtered out of my circle of friends.
- travisjungroth 2y agoIt’s not just liking a book, as if they named some cliche young adult novel. It’s the magnum opus of the author’s philosophy as a novel. They’re dismissing them for the philosophical views they’re celebrating. It’s the other end of the spectrum from disliking someone because their favorite book is The Grapes of Wrath or A Brave New World. I actually agree with the values expressed in those books, and I can also understand someone not wanting to be friends with me because of it. But at least if you’re going to have friends with a different philosophy, seems like a better move to reach across to people who believe in community and collaboration over self-interest and individualism. That’s just me, though.
- Y_Y 2y agoI can like a book without agreeing with it.
- cactacea 2y agoAnd have it change your life?
- dmitrygr 2y ago> And have it change your life? Yes, a literary work can both be life-changing and not something you agree with. EG: I do not at all agree with Marx. Me and others reading his works changed my life irrevocably. Ditto for Hitler.
- travisjungroth 2y ago
- dh2022 2y agoOP is playing checkers; the rest of HN is playing chess....
- tb_technical 2y agoI'm only smart enough to play checkers. But I'm happy with my lot in life.
- crossroadsguy 2y agoI would do the same. But maybe that's the kind, us?, of person OP doesn't want to do anything with at all.
- uoaei 2y agoThis is the root of why folks did not appreciate those cringy "social experimenter" kids growing up.
- lolinder 2y ago> I think you're dismissing the people such as myself that would note you as an idiot without comment and move on wanting nothing to do with you. > Edit: tests ... with people you just met is an ineffective way to navigate the world. My 2c Do you see the irony here? I wouldn't personally run the kind of test OP is running, but I think that even in your case the test succeeded: they've successfully separated themselves from someone who is inclined take one aspect of who they present themselves as and immediately put them in a box, label them, and dismiss them. They don't have to know that you're that kind of person for the filter to be effective.
- llamaimperative 2y agoHow about "tests with an obviously high risk of systematic, invisible false negatives are bad"
- lolinder 2y agoIs it a false negative if the point of the test is to filter out people who will immediately assume that anyone who likes Atlas Shrugged is someone that they don't want to know better? It's not a filter I would choose to use, I'm just saying that OP isn't providing a failure case—the filter is still doing its job there.
- jerjerjer 2y agoFew books are more indicative of people I'd like to filter out immediately than Atlas Shrugged. It's about as close to saying "screw other people" as possible.
- llamaimperative 2y agoYeah I guess if their filter is literally "will this person stop talking to me if I like Atlas Shrugged" and not actually something like "will this person engage in respectful disagreement with me." Of course the first test is useless, so I suspect they're trying and failing to produce the second test.
- 2y ago
- bsitworksno322 2y ago[dead]
- heyjamesknight 2y ago> I think you're dismissing the people such as myself that would note you as an idiot without comment and move on wanting nothing to do with you. Sounds to me like you failed the test.
- giraffe_lady 2y agoYeah you gotta go around assuming that anyone might lie to you about their favorite book in order to use your reaction to determine something about your personality. This behavior is normal and good.
- joenot443 2y agoYou missed the point, I’m afraid. What’s neither normal nor good is writing someone off as an idiot because their taste in books differs from yours.
- giraffe_lady 2y agoExercising your judgement about how other people exercise their judgement is good actually.
- joenot443 2y agoI think being judgmental towards people who aren't seeking your judgement is parasocial and weird actually.
- vundercind 2y agoI am having trouble seeing how this doesn’t just, one way or another, filter for people unfamiliar with both the literary and philosophical merits of Atlas Shrugged. Possibility 1: A too-enthusiastic reaction. Filtered. Possibility 2: A too-negative reaction. Filtered. Possibility 3: a neutral-enough reaction to not get filtered, but at least some parts of their opinion just shifted toward the negative and wary. If not filtered, at least now distant for some time. Possibility 4: a neutral-enough reaction because they have low familiarity with the book. Only pairing that passes unscathed. I’d recommend saying Twilight instead. It doesn’t come with garbage-politics implications (at least, simply liking the book doesn’t) [edit] hm. But then people being enthusiastic fans of it isn’t as useful a filter. This is tricky. Having it be something big fans of which are usually unpleasant is a benefit for filtering the other people, but sends false negative signals about yourself.
- kstrauser 2y agoI agree. "Atlas Shrugged" isn't "Mein Kampf", but if someone told me MK was their favorite book, I'd back away slowly without stopping to figure whether they were making some clever commentary on open-mindedness and subtlety of thought. Now, if you told me you'd read Atlas Shrugged or Mein Kampf and found a nonzero set of ideas worth thinking through, at least to evaluate whether or why your own personal philosophy was able to determine they were bad ideas, let's have that conversation! But your favorite? Uh, I think my wife needed something in another room.
- aaron695 2y ago[dead]
- michalu 2y agoFor a test to be effective it doesn't have to be 100% effective every time. Just because it doesn't filter out rare individuums like yourself it doesn't mean it doesn't filter out 90% of them. If someone asks a question it's not unwise to assume they'll have a comment on that.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- bee_rider 2y agoCanticle for Leibowitz was pretty good. Regardless of political opinions, that monologue in the middle of Atlas Shrugged is some quite poor writing. TBH if someone said their Atlas Shrugged was their favorite book, I would assume they were making some sort of political statement, which seems like a bit of an intrusion on what otherwise ought to be a fun chat about books. I was a teenager when I read her books, and these days mostly disagree with her politics. It was a while ago, but I vaguely remember The Fountainhead being a better read than Atlas Shrugged.
- eej71 2y agoI've re-read The Fountainhead about a dozen times and find a few new gems each time I go through it.
- tb_technical 2y agoThe idea that the people are not ready for certain technologies strongly resonates with me. Every day I find myself falling further and further out of touch with new technology. Never read The Fountainhead.
- jjmarr 2y agoThe best part of the monologue is in-universe, it supposedly takes 3 hours, but everyone on YouTube takes 4-5 hours, which means John Galt was speaking at 1.5x speed. Honestly Ayn Rand's sexual politics are more interesting than her economic politics. The books are mostly about masculinity and its definition. The ideal men in her books are immutable flawless beings, and the (good) women learn to define themselves by dating progressively better men. In Atlas Shrugged, Dagny goes from Francisco d'Anconia (no ambition playboy) to Hank Rearden (ambitious steel magnate that's a slave to the state) to John Galt (genius that refuses to compromise on anything). Dagny achieves fulfillment by collecting personality traits from the people she dates—which ultimately leads to her realization she is the one responsible for her own self-actualization (kind of contradictory lol). The Fountainhead engages with this more, because the conformist Keating is portrayed as more harmful than the physically abusive Roark. I'm convinced Ayn Rand defined the "sigma male" and she'll get no credit for it as a woman. She engages with the concept much more than the manosphere, because her sigma males end up poor, homeless, and societally unsuccessful because of their inability to compromise. Contrast the dream sold to young men on social media, which is "not compromising on anything will make you rich and attractive!" I don't agree with Rand's value system but she accurately describes what happens to people that hate compromise. The only reason why one would be a sigma is if one prioritizes "being right" over every other aspect of one's life.
- lordnacho 2y agoHave you considered that someone who hears Atlas Shrugged is your favourite book might react similarly? I'd be polite, but note you down as either an immature thinker or someone who likes to provoke. With a little more prodding, possibly also one of those people who has to be right about everything, and this is their hill. I guess I'm on passive radar and you are on active.
- tb_technical 2y agoI have considered it. I generally don't like people who fly off the handle immediately. I really like your radar analogy
- FrustratedMonky 2y agoI think you are missing point, not everyone is up for an inquisition at every new meeting. Using this method, people that agree with you might just move on, because they don't feel like probing you. You are turning away people that would agree with you just because they don't want to argue with you. You also haven't given any reason for them to even try'. Or better example: Person 1: I like Atlas Shrugged (secretly don't but use it as a test when meeting people) Person 2: Amazing, I also like Atlas Shrugged (secretly don't, but don't want to argue with another Atlas Shrugged fan boy, so just nod head and agree, and just looking how to end conversation and move on).
- nataliste 2y agoI don't see how this isn't the filter still working. A polite end to the conversation and self-selection is just as useful to me as being scolded. I've used the same test (simply reference Ayn Rand in a non-disparaging context when topical) and it's fantastic what the results are as far as actually finding independent, open, and prosocial people. There's a narrow band of people that will actually give Rand a fair shot and treat her objectively without also mentioning that they're also in Mensa and into Agorism (the opposite and ironic red flags of slavishness to Objectivism). With that narrow band of people you can have any conversation and explore any topic because they have their own thoughts! And I'd rather discover who is and isn't a member of that set early on. In short, not a bug, will not fix.
- Vegenoid 2y agoI know almost nothing about Atlas Shrugged, besides that it is very political, but this seems a strange and deceptive way to interact with people. I can't imagine it is very good for establishing trust with someone even if they "pass the test". I would think that many level-headed people you seek to select for would not appreciate being tested in this way, but I suppose you are selecting for a very specific kind of person who would find these kinds of social games and tests interesting.
- bee_rider 2y agoIt is political, but it is also not a good book. Like, it has a gigantic monologue in the middle where one of the main characters just stands there and expounds on the theme of the book, for many pages. It is not well written. If somebody said they liked… some books by Heinlein or whatever, there’s a guy with some Political Opinions. But he can write. It is believable, picking a Heinlein book isn’t an obvious political test.
- DonaldPShimoda 2y ago> for many pages For those who do not know, this is an understatement. The monologue is some 60 pages long.
- swasheck 2y agomy feeling is that it's a "badge" book and by that i mean, you wear it as a badge in order to signal your fluency in pro/anti objectivism conversations. conversations about it remind me of my post-high school experiences with peers while discussing movies. people always chose apocalypse now, the crying game, or the usual suspects as the "best movie in recent memory" and the reasoning was generally because they wanted to appear thoughtful/cerebral, but edgy, but also down with a little popcorn movie violence or other human vice. it was a signal, not a preference. as such, i found atlas shrugged to be a dull, self-indulgent thought piece that was aesthetically and technically unappealing. however, it is an important work that has influence on philosophies of human politics. but that's just, like, my opinion, man
- ziddoap 2y agoResponding to a genuine question of interest with some sort of test says a lot about you. I guess your filter works both ways, because I would not want to associate with someone who does this. Edit: Watching my points go up and down on this one has been interesting! I didn't realize people were so divided on whether or not it's okay to lie and test people as some sort of friendship filter.
- rpdillon 2y agoIt is somewhat odd to ask someone about their favorite book and instead get a lie that's intended to test whether or not you'll be a good friend. It's also completely offtopic for a discussion about folks' favorite books.
- tb_technical 2y agoFair. It's a bit of a bait post. But the OP did say by any metric of "best". And I did post three of my favorites at the end, too!
- grecy 2y ago> The best book I've ever read was Atlas Shrugged I didn't read it until I was well into my 30s, but I very much enjoyed it. Not the best I've ever read, but I have read it a few times now. I don't agree with a lot of it, and I can't relate to some of the characters personally, I just think it is extremely well written. The characters and their motivations are very well laid out, and we get to go on a journey with them.
- billbrown 2y agoCongratulations on your independence. May I recommend her other novel The Fountainhead, which is about the war between individualism and collectivism within a person?
- grecy 2y agoI enjoyed that also, but found it much less character driven and I got lost in the weeds somewhere
- chrisfosterelli 2y agoI was pretty similar. I heard so much about it that I figured I should read it, but that wasn't until my late 20s. I feel weird telling people I liked it because of how it's used as a categorizer. It's obviously a flawed philosophy and I don't agree with huge chunks of it -- but its a book that just sticks in your head and the ideals it espouses are attractive. Honestly I think of it as a piece of media similar to superhero movies. The practical reality of superheros implemented literally would likely be a complete catastrophe. But watching fictional superheros do acts of good is inspiring.
- billbrown 2y agoRegarding the last paragraph, I'd recommend the feature film "Mystery Men" and the graphic novel series "Astro City." The Amazon TV series "The Boys" also covered this ground but did it a little too ham-handedly for my liking.
- soufron 2y agoMan, what an ass way of choosing your friends... I doubt it's optimal.
- d1str0 2y agoI think you just proved his point. This response is clearly quite aggressive and over the top and thus falls in the camp of being unlikely friends vs. someone who takes a more cordial approach.
- jachee 2y agoCordial or not, I certainly wouldn’t want to be friends with someone sociopathically “testing” me like that. It’s literal anti-social behavior.
- tb_technical 2y agoNo one deserves to be friends with anyone, actually - it's something two people decide mutually. To see it any other way reeks of entitlement.
- tdeck 2y agoFolks aren't reacting negatively because they want to be OP's friend, they're reacting negatively because OP makes a practice of lying to people about something inconsequential in order to try to provoke them as a form of test. That's not the way most normal people think about building personal relationships. We don't go around deliberately setting traps for others.
- nataliste 2y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consensus_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consensus_effect
- AnimalMuppet 2y agoI don't view someone giving me a test on first meeting as "cordial" either.
- influx 2y agoI do the same thing except substitute The Communist Manifesto.
- tb_technical 2y agoA really close friend of mine did this to me, actually. With this same exact book. It's how I learned the trick.
- SkyBelow 2y agoNow I'm left wondering how well this would work substituting in different books. Different religious texts? Especially if you pick one that is not part of the primary religion of the area you are located in. A Modest Proposal? Probably the worst choice. Most won't recognize it and the few who do will assume satire in your response. (Also, essays aren't books, but who is counting.) A certain book by Nabokov? What about someone who seriously considers the question, but then says that they've read many books but don't really have one they consider the best? Too much of a non-answer?
- matheusmoreira 2y agoI've done that too. My reaction to their responses wasn't exactly neutral either.
- FactKnower69 2y ago[flagged]
- tb_technical 2y agoGlad you're having a good time, bud!
- ramesh31 2y ago>Not because I remember anything about it, or believe anything it espouses, or even like it all that much, but because it's a useful filter for obnoxious people in meatspace. Nietzche fills this role for me. Thinking he was right is a big red flag. But not knowing of him makes your opinions on philosophy meaningless.
- Amezarak 2y agoI find a good follow up question is oh? what do you think he's all about? And if they start talking about master/slave morality or the ubermensch, then change the subject and move on,
- qudat 2y agoThat's interesting because the Genealogy of Morality was his greatest contribution as far as I can tell. Is there something in particular that feels most egregious about master/slave morality or do you have some reading attempting to reject the ideas?
- Amezarak 2y agoYou will see very quickly whether or not the person understood Nietzsche to have been writing almost entirely prescriptively or descriptively. The former almost always holds a caricature of Nietzsche's thought as the edgy truth. GoM is an interesting work on his ideas about the historical evolution of social norms and the psychological motivations behind them in many cases; in either it or TGS he says that a really comprehensive work on the evolution of norms throughout human history and different societies in different conditions would be invaluable, and that his work is only sort of a first step on an enormous undertaking. Unfortunately, we never much took it up. Maybe that's inevitable, since Nietzsche in a rare normative moment says the exception should not become the rule; we don't want a lot of people to not take their norms so seriously they reflexively reject serious consideration of their contingent character. If they do, you don't have much of a society. It's certainly very hard for people to seriously think about these problems. Plenty of very smart people take thinkers like Rawls seriously, where Nietzsche's work clearly shows it to be without any serious foundation. You could of course still make a claim for moral realism, but it requires the acceptance of ideas the same people are usually allergic to. But even more than that, Nietzsche is full of really incredible ideas and insights worded in clever ways. TGS is brilliant. When someone talks about these subjects I usually gather they didn’t really engage. Those topics are what come up in almost all secondary sources where they are treated superficially or often, like Russell, almost maliciously wrong.
- hluska 2y agoSo, you will lie about your favourite book to socially engineer people? That would be the end of any friendship even if your favourite books are actually good reads. Why would I want to be friends with someone who will lie to qualify me? I don’t put up with that amongst mobile device salespeople and that’s a small investment.
- tb_technical 2y agoThis is fine. People don't have to be friends, you know? And it's ok not to be friends with everyone. I just know what types of people I like to hang out with - and they're typically people patient enough to put up with my dumb ass.
- hluska 2y agoThe only thing wrong with this whole thing is that you think it’s okay to start relationships with a lie. Thats not okay. It demonstrates a lack of integrity. Your friends deserve better.
- EFreethought 2y ago> Your friends deserve better. Maybe they don't.
- tb_technical 2y agoPerhaps, but they do seem to like me. Should I warn them? Tell them I'm dangerous?
- hluska 2y agoNo of course not. You're not dangerous...if so, uh, I am logged into a random stranger's Hacker News account. :) Kidding aside friend, I get the feeling you've been hurt in the past and that's really sad. I can't change any of that. But I can tell you that you're a pretty cool person in the present and you can attract other cool people by being authentically you. Consider your list of favourite books - you're fricking cool. If you're authentically you, you will get burned and that's sad. But in a way, you're burning other people to keep from being burned. Thanks for this talk - I enjoy you.
- el_memorioso 2y agoWhat happens later in the relationship when you reveal you lied about your favorite book as some weird social vetting process? It seems the insincerity would turn a lot of people off.
- tb_technical 2y agoBelieve it or not its made quite a few people laugh
- Workaccount2 2y agoAs someone who also hates extreme non-nuanced views, and seeks people who are thoughtful and emotionally level, I don't think I would be put off at all. In fact I'd guess that if you really did talk with tb for a while, you would probably pick up that Ayn Rand is not a fit for the beliefs they convey.
- michaelmrose 2y agoWouldn't this only be a functional recommendation if you were planning on being the sole determinant in whether the relationship moved forward because your response could pretty obviously be used as their filter just as easily? Whenever I hear about that author the only thing I can think of is her adoration of a strong man in the person of a killer who kidnapped a little girl and propped up half her body in a car to ransom her back to her father then pushed the half a corpse into the street and drove off with the money. Then I think about her retiring on welfare. > "Other people do not exist for him, and he does not see why they should," she wrote, gushing that Hickman had "no regard whatsoever for all that society holds sacred, and with a consciousness all his own. He has the true, innate psychology of a Superman. He can never realize and feel 'other people.'" https://www.alternet.org/2015/01/how-ayn-rand-became-big-admirer-serial-killer https://www.alternet.org/2015/01/how-ayn-rand-became-big-adm... It's not a fair comparison but when someone says their favorite author is Rand I have a similar response as if they had said "Hitler". I can tolerate ideas I hate but see little profit in trafficking too much with sociopaths. Perhaps you don't either else why do you avoid those who are "way too supportive"
- tb_technical 2y ago> Wouldn't this only be a functional recommendation if you were planning on being the sole determinant in whether the relationship moved forward because your response could pretty obviously be used as their filter just as easily? This is a really good point, actually, but I am counting on this. What I'm trying to select in strangers is patience (also humor). If someone gives me shade in a silly enough way, everything is permitted. Also, a nitpick, being friends with someone is solely up to you. If either you or someone else don't like each other, a relationship effectively cannot happen (although, there are exceptions, first impressions can be overcome). So rather than even trying to predict what someone else is thinking, I just don't try (and pretend it's not a factor). I go with my gut, and most of the time it works out great for me. I'll add some context though, most of the time I do this in dingy dive bars and small town pubs. People aren't typically very cerebral there, so it works.
- kouru225 2y agoMy response would be to slowly distance myself from you without you noticing. And if I’m drunk I’ll laugh at you.
- kwar13 2y agoDeep thought. For 8th graders I suppose.
- freetanga 2y agoMy strategy is that if they reply “Atlas Shrugged”, I reply “Really? Nice to meet you! By chance my name is Atlas!”, then shrug and walk away. Let’s meet soon
- dsizzle 2y agoCan you summarize what kind of responses you get? I'd like to believe I'd quickly figure out this too-on-the-nose response wasn't serious and it'd lead to a laugh and more interesting discussion
- tb_technical 2y agoYeah that's normally how it goes, actually.
- drzephyr 2y ago15 years ago I had a colleague who was obsessed with Ayn Rand. I didn't know anything about Ayn Rand and her philosophies. I was/am good friends with that person. Fast-forward a decade and I know who Ayn Rand is and her philosophies. I know generally what type of people adhere to her philosophies and they are the opposite of who I would normally associate myself with. My opinion of my friend has not changed now that I am more familiar with Ayn Rand. It provides additional background for some of the values that my friend has, but does not change who that person is or my ability to be friends with them. I think that a lot of times it is easy to distance yourself from someone who has opposite beliefs from you, but at the end of the day, I don't think that is the only criteria in determining if someone is worth associating with.
- tb_technical 2y agoI completely agree with you, and I have similar sentiments with my friends who hold different views.
- micromacrofoot 2y ago> If they're critical in a way I can appreciate What about people who are critical in a way you'll never know? Personally I might check off a "don't ask for book recommendations" box in my head and never mention it to you again
- tb_technical 2y agoI write off not knowing things I'll never know. Not worth the time worrying about it.
- luddit3 2y agoStarting out a relationship by lying seems like a horrible idea.
- jrflowers 2y ago“I lie to people’s faces to conduct a test around a mundane question in order to safeguard myself from the ‘meatspace’ ruffians that don’t like Ayn Rand” is a hilarious strategy. As an aside, it kind of seems like Atlas Shrugged actually is your favorite book. You don’t appear to care what others think about Neuromancer or The Dying Earth but you literally require a specific and narrow set of feelings about Objectivism to pass The Test. (And obviously, it is the feelings that you mandate, not the lack of social graces, as you have noted that you don’t mind if others politely stop talking to you even after passing The Test. They do not feel positively enough toward Ayn Rand and as such are not worthy of your time)
- tb_technical 2y agoI don't like Atlas Shrugged and you can't convince me otherwise. The most interesting paragraphs in that book were rants about cigarette brands, and even that was a total bore. Neuromancer is enjoyable, but mostly because I enjoyed cyberpunk inspired media before reading it. Seeing all the influences Neuromancer had on books, movies, anime/manga, and even half life mods was a real treat. That and I empathized with Case - in my youth I was addicted to amphetamines, and it was a really nasty habit to kick. As for Dying Earth, although the first wizards story is a little bit of a slow burn, seeing the elf sisters come back for their own pieces in the anthology was a real treat. Seeing the disturbed one overcome her sickness and find love was a fun triumphant end for her character arc. I'm also a DnD player, so seeing the early inspiration for the spell slots mechanic was a really cool experience for me. But, really, what really annoys me about what people like you do is interrogate people for purity. I lost too much time in my youth trying to keep people, who I thought were my friends, like you happy. That sort of stress isn't worth it. People who act this way are not a positive influence on my life, and I just don't have the time for it. And it's perfectly acceptable not to want to be friends with people who accuse other people of being too chuddy. It's just gross, man
- jrflowers 2y ago>I don't like Atlas Shrugged and you can't convince me otherwise. > I lost too much time in my youth trying to keep people, who I thought were my friends, like you happy. This is pretty much a summary of John Galt’s long speech. Also, https://fablesofaesop.com/the-fox-and-the-grapes.html https://fablesofaesop.com/the-fox-and-the-grapes.html
- FrustratedMonky 2y ago"but because it's a useful filter for obnoxious people in meatspace" It is surprising that a book can become such a barometer. I liked the book originally, it isn't a bad introduction to some ideas. But even when I was young was able to poke holes in it. But then many years later, it has become something like a 'flag' or 'rally cry' for certain segments of populating that either haven't read it at all, or have horribly miss-interpreted it, or most likely only idealized it by reading the first half.
- 015a 2y agoAre you Scott Alexander? https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/12yn28h/comment/jhosllr/ https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/12yn28h/com...
- tb_technical 2y agoNo, and I don't know who he is either.
- analogwzrd 2y agoIs this some kind of test?
- tb_technical 2y agoNo I have no idea what any of this is about
- 015a 2y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slate_Star_Codex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slate_Star_Codex Its at least a bit interesting that this idea that "Ayn Rand exists as a roundabout litmus test for assholes" is quite weird, one I've never heard before, except from him. To arrive independently at the exact same, weird conclusion, there must be something to it.
- tb_technical 2y agoIf you want to believe that I'm this person there's nothing I can say to dissuade you. But I'm not him.
- 015a 2y ago... no one said that.
- teapot7 2y ago"Ayn Rand exists as a roundabout litmus test for assholes" is a pretty widely held idea. I've never read a book of hers, but the extracts I've read... well, I can see why people say that.
- andrepd 2y agoSo let me get this straight, you present yourself as a caricature of an obnoxious pseudo-intellectual, then "filter out" people who react against that? What a bizarre way to interact with people. Not only is it dishonest, you're also... making yourself look unappealing on purpose. I fail to see how this benefits you. I tolerate different ideas just fine, but anyone over the age of 20 who tells me "The best book I've ever read was Atlas Shrugged in 8th grade. Changed my life." will immediately strike me as a person I probably have little interest in being friends with.
- jrflowers 2y ago> you're also... making yourself look unappealing on purpose. I fail to see how this benefits you. My more-depressing interpretation of this is the value comes as an explanation for being written off by others. Rather than being a way to filter others out, a person with multiple socially off-putting habits or a generally disagreeable demeanor can do This One Weird Trick to then point at their cleverness as the reason why they are standing in a room fun of people that don’t want to talk to them. There is no need for self-reflection if everyone else is simply too gauche to understand how actually pro-social your nakedly anti-social ruse is.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- lpapez 2y agoSo your approach to a social situation with a new acquaintance is to give a dishonest answer to test whether they are willing to put up with your obnoxiousness in the future? I'm sorry but if someone disregards you at that stage I wouldn't say that they lack "social accumen to not go too hard in the paint early" as you say, rather that they have sufficient experience with difficult people and just chose to willingly ignore you for their own good. Even admitting to doing this is already off-putting to me.
- aanet 2y ago> _Not because I remember anything about it, or believe anything it espouses, or even like it all that much, but because it's a useful filter for obnoxious people in meatspace._ This made me chuckle wryly... :) In a previous life, I might have been on who got along very well -- at least intellectually -- with those who loved Atlas Shrugged and swore by it as the bible of their lives. Now, with some age and wisdom, it's the exact opposite. I myself wouldn't use a book as a filter for all things in social life... (for it generates way too many false positives), but I sheepishly admit to doing the same every now and then... Different strokes, different folks. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- tb_technical 2y agoI'm glad you had a laugh. That's what I was going for - and normally how the interaction in question plays out.
- qudat 2y agoI think your technique is working because a lot of people got triggered by your friend test. I kind of love it.
- RobKohr 2y agoYeah, I am totally going to steal it. I have a twisted collection of semi contradictory beliefs that I feel fairly strongly about and make it so I don't really fit in with right wing, left wing, or centrists, though I am really accepting of other people with opposing viewpoints. This failure to fit well in a bucket has caused the loss of quite a few friends, and so having a filter for people who can't tolerate opposing viewpoints is pretty useful.
- nyeah 2y agoBut the best books are "A Canticle for Leibowitz", "Neuromancer", and "The Dying Earth".
- mindcrime 2y agoA Canticle for Leibowitz I found Canticle kinda "meh" personally. It was a great premise, and the 1st third was somewhat interesting, but the rest fell flat for me. I'd say it was a book I wanted to like a lot, but the execution let me down.
- nyeah 2y agoI loved it, but I think I know what you mean. I feel like there's a lot of unrealized potential.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- oarla 2y agoHow much one likes Atlas Shrugged may depend on age as well. When I read it at age of 20, it was the best book I had ever read and almost a Bible for me. At 25, it had some great points that were worth adopting. At 30, it was mostly a fantasy, but entertaining. At 38, it is just not worth the time.
- dyauspitr 2y agoSo you’re using a book as a political filtering mechanism. I don’t see how that particular book has any relevance to this discussion then. You might as well just switch it out with “The Turner Diaries” or something similar.
- tb_technical 2y agoPretty much, yeah. Any controversial political book will do.
- dyauspitr 2y agoWell how far do you want to go? Saying it’s the turner diaries means you’re left with a peer group that are only potentially violent, white supremacists.
- tb_technical 2y agoI try to avoid white supremacists if at all possible.
- justin66 2y ago> "The best book I've ever read was Atlas Shrugged in 8th grade. Changed my life." The obvious followup question is how did it change your life? Under this gambit of yours I wonder how you'd respond? I'm not interested in Ayn Rand or her bizarre fanboys but I think if someone said that to me I'd honestly be curious enough, not out of empathy but out of anthropological interest, to ask the question
- bradleyy 2y agoI just have to say, "A Canticle for Leibowitz" shook me for a really, really long time afterwards. I'm not saying it's a bad book, it's quite thought provoking, but I took about 99 points of psychic damage from it.
- makeworld 2y agoWhy is that?
- tb_technical 2y agoIt's difficult to describe without spoiling the book. The only way I can describe it without spoiling the three arcs is to say it has a very bleak outlook on human nature
- GeorgeTirebiter 2y agoI was instructed as an 11- or 12-year old to read aCfL. I thought it was clever the way the Middle Ages intersected with post nuclear war Earth as the setting. Questions about what is important, venerated, and why. What 'knowing' means. As to the bleak outlook, I don't remember enough (it was a long time ago), but a few years ago looked it up on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Canticle_for_Leibowitz?useskin=vector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Canticle_for_Leibowitz?usesk... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_M._Miller_Jr.?useskin=vector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_M._Miller_Jr.?useskin=v... I learned that Arthur Miller Jr suffered from depression and chose to end his life with a firearm in 1996, age 72. I am always somewhat 'on guard' when I read works from people who were suffering with an illness like that, wondering how much of the story is infused with unnecessarily dour material when another, perhaps more upbeat approach, would have served the story as well. I guess I do not want to be dragged into depression by being overly bummed out by Fiction.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- EasyMark 2y agoThat might be a filter that goes both ways, not a bad idea on your part at all.
- TrapLord_Rhodo 2y agothat story checks out considering your actual favorite books all have dark, dystopian elements with a glim outlook on human nature in general.
- FrustratedMonky 2y ago"A Canticle for Leibowitz" I'd recommend also "Anathem" by Stephenson
- tb_technical 2y agoThank you
- Shocka1 2y agoThe ol' treating social interactions as a chess match... I could have definitely related to this in my 20s, but I cannot relate to this anymore. At this point in my life it sounds truly terrible to me for multiple reasons. At some point I learned that it takes much longer than a conversation to truly get to know someone. People I was unimpressed with at first have turned out to be a really great friends a few months later. This has happened enough that I usually just give people a pass now regardless.
- gcj 2y agoGo ahead and say Mein Kampf then. If people react in "bla bla bla" way you can go ahead and judge them for not taking the time to think you might actually be playing mind games and not being a total idiot. :D