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Alleged M4 MacBook Pro unboxing video
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- takoid 2y agoM1 -> M2: 2301 -> 2598 = 12.91% increase M2 -> M3: 2598 -> 3082 = 18.63% increase M3 -> M4: 3082 -> 3864 = 25.37% increase Assuming the M4 Geekbench score is legit, it’s interesting to see that the jump from M3 to M4 has the largest percentage increase in single-core performance since the M1 came out. The M1 -> M2 and M2 -> M3 upgrades were solid, but the 25.37% jump from M3 -> M4 is much more significant. It makes you wonder if we’ll keep seeing even bigger performance leaps with future releases, or if there’s something specific about this generation that’s driving such a large gain. Will Apple keep increasing performance at this rate, or is this an exception?
- Retr0id 2y agoPlausibly a large part of the perf bump comes from the SVE and SME extensions, for workloads that can put them to use.
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- gigatexal 2y agoWill they keep this up? Probably. Indefinitely? Likely not. But look at what it’s done. There are compelling ARM hardware outside of Apple now due to the renaissance in performance that this am series chip has shown. I’ve an M3 max and now I can’t wait to see what an M4 max will do. 256GB ram in the top end laptop? 25-50% more cores?
- kev009 2y agoThat's a good point.. I wonder how much network effect this has on substantiating ARM in server space too. Vendors have been trying that since the early twenty-teens and it was not going anywhere fast until Apple shipped the M1. I don't think it is a direct cause->correlation, but the existence of high powered dev machines running clang and gcc certainly lowers a lot of frictions even in higher level languages like Go.
- dagmx 2y agoAnecdotally, a lot of software in the graphics space didn’t have arm availability till after the M series were released. A lot of the windows/linux arm ports of libraries didn’t exist till after despite having hardware available earlier. My work on Linux clusters was dramatically improved. Having even one vendor prove that arm is worth paying attention to is the tide that lifts the ships of all other vendors in the arm space .
- sofixa 2y agoAWS' Graviton line was released in 2018 to much fanfare, and there was a lot of content about all the cost savings per performance it brings immediately. Ampere were founded in 2017, and in early 2020 announced partnerships with Oracle for ARM based servers M1 came out in November 2020. A lot of Linux tools and systems and applications became available thanks to Raspberry Pis becoming very popular with hobbyists, and then Graviton pushing more "enterprise" stuff. For more user facing GUI-powered applications, it lagged, and still lags, but there Apple and Microsoft's ARM efforts were the main driving force.
- cheema33 2y ago> There are compelling ARM hardware outside of Apple now Not only that, this may have finally forced Intel to innovate. Their new Lunar Lake CPUs coming out now are actually competitive with Apple chips for both performance and power. I thought I might not see X86 become competitive again in my lifetime.
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- throw7374 2y agoThose are nice numbers. But in reality Air M2 had worse performance, because cooling system was much worse.
- hggigg 2y agoNumbers are plausible. The M4 iPad is close to an i9-14900k in single thread. I’ll buy an M4 mini when one comes out to replace my M1.
- hulitu 2y ago> The M4 iPad is close to an i9-14900k in single thread. For how many microseconds ? /s
- hggigg 2y agoA good point which is why I want it in a Mac Mini where they (hopefully) haven't compromised it thermally as much!
- ChrisMarshallNY 2y agoSame here. I have been using an M1Max 14-inch for the last few years, but I seldom undock it, so an M4 Mini would be good. I don't really need the raw power of the Studio. From what I hear, the next Mini could actually be "mini."
- leecb 2y agoI wonder how much of this increase is solely enabled by TSMC process upgrades, either through higher clock speeds or increased number of transistors per core? It's kind of interesting that every iteration of the M series has corresponded to a change of TSMC process. M1: 16 billion transistors at 3.2 GHz on TSMC N5 M2: 20 billion transistors at 3.7 GHz on TSMC N5P M3: 25 billion transistors at 4.05 GHz on TSMC N3B M4: 28 billion transistors at ?? GHz on TSMC N3E
- dagmx 2y agoN3E is slightly less efficient than N3B though, it just has higher yields.
- Fluorescence 2y agoDo both efficiency and yield play a part in the final off the shelf performance? e.g. does higher yield mean you get more product in higher bins? I imagine we need to judge a process by the distribution across bins not just a max efficiency or a total yield.
- dagmx 2y agoPerhaps if this was intel or AMD with many binned SKUs, but Apple has very minimal SKUs and less binning wouldn’t account for as large a single core jump
- bhouston 2y ago> Will Apple keep increasing performance at this rate, or is this an exception? I want to believe that but a lot of the performance gains have been the result of frequency boosting and you can not do that forever. What is the current limit to that? Probably around 5Ghz right? They are squeezing more out of the silicon but the frequency has been the primary contributor recently.
- DeathArrow 2y agoI don't think Geekbench is a relevant benchmark for laptops. I would look at other benchmarks such as Cinebench, before drawing any conclusions.
- satvikpendem 2y ago> 25% faster M4 chip: The box lists this 14-inch MacBook Pro as having an M4 chip with a 10-core CPU, whereas the current model has the M3 chip with an 8-core CPU. An alleged Geekbench 6 benchmark result shared by the YouTube channel behind this leak suggests that the M4 chip will be up to 25% faster than the M3 chip. Apple already introduced the M4 chip in the iPad Pro in May, and it indeed has up to a 10-core CPU and up to 25% faster performance compared to the M3 chip. > 16GB of RAM: It was previously rumored that 16GB of RAM could become the minimum for all future Macs, and the alleged packaging indeed suggests that the next 14-inch MacBook Pro would start with 16GB of RAM, unless it is somehow a built-to-order configuration that will be offered on Apple's online store. > Three Thunderbolt 4 ports: The box suggests the base 14-inch MacBook Pro will have three Thunderbolt 4 ports, up from two Thunderbolt 3 ports on the current model. > Space Black: The box suggests that Space Black would become a color option for the base 14-inch MacBook Pro, whereas it is currently exclusive to models configured with the M3 Pro or M3 Max chip. Aside, I still have an M1 Pro 16", is it worth upgrading to an M3 (or future M4)? It feels like my M1 can still do everything I need it to (coding, compiling, running emulators for mobile development), but for those that did upgrade, do you feel it was worth it, or are the gains incremental?
- pr337h4m 2y ago>16GB of RAM could become the minimum for all future Macs If true, this would be a big deal for local LLM inference.
- nfriedly 2y ago> It feels like my M1 can still do everything I need it to I think you answered your own question: No, you don't need the upgrade. (I'm in the same boat as you, for what it's worth. My wife and I both have M1 machines, and they both do what we need, so we're not upgrading.)
- darnfish 2y agoStill interested to know the answer to this Q tho: > for those that did upgrade, do you feel it was worth it, or are the gains incremental?
- slater 2y agoReminds me a bit of those blurry photos of fake iProducts ca. 2005, taken in a blue elevator or loading dock. Anyone remember those?
- monroewalker 2y agoStill using an Intel MacBook Pro. Time for an M3 or wait for M4?
- Aeolun 2y agoM3 is already a massive improvement, but since prices don’t really get lower as time goes on, you might as well buy the M4 when it is fresh?
- kylec 2y agoAt this point wait for the M4, seems like it's going to drop in a month or so, and then get that. Though truth be told you could jump to an M4 MacBook Air and still get better performance than your Intel machine. Most people do not need the "Pro" or "Max" chips, even professionals.
- adastra22 2y agoIf the M4 really is coming out in a month, wait. Either get a 25% improvement “for free” (compared to what you’d pay now), or get a used one for cheaper as people with more money than sense rush to upgrade. But it is way past time to upgrade your Intel Mac to Apple Silicon. The difference is night and day.
- bigtex 2y agoProbably have a chance at getting a nice discount on a refurb/discontinued model after the M4 comes out.
- salojoo 2y agoYou should wait for M5 to get M4 for a discount
- behnamoh 2y agoI want to know its bandwidth. How does it compare to Nvidia 4090? If it exceeds that (at least in the Max/Ultra model), it'll be huge; we'll suddenly have solid +190GB of VRAM (technically URAM) to run multiple LLMs on.
- andersa 2y agoThat comparison doesn't make sense. If you want 192GB VRAM, then that is the size of 8 4090s, so to make it competitive, the bandwidth also needs to be 8 times higher. Or 8TB/s in this case.
- behnamoh 2y agoThis is so wrong I don't even need to correct it.
- saagarjha 2y agoYou don't need to post like that, either. And yet here we are.
- klohto 2y agoWhat are you talking about? Why would you multiply the bandwidth? 8 4090s is still 1000GB/s. While the M2 Ultra is 800GB/s with a top of 192GB VRAM. Metal can access ~155GB, so you need a bit more, but your comparison makes absolutely zero sense.
- FootballMuse 2y agoI guess Thunderbolt 5 will have to wait until M5.
- imeron 2y agoI do wonder if they can continue improving interconnect specs as with Thunderbolt 4 the cable seems to be already the limiting factor. It’s thick, expensive and only available in very short lengths.
- WithinReason 2y agoThunderbolt was supposed to be optical originally, maybe it's time. There are rumors of PCIE 7 being optical too.
- FootballMuse 2y ago100% it is an looming adoption challenge. The same problem exists with finding verified DisplayPort 2.1 80Gbps cables. Optical interconnects might be the only way forward.
- pier25 2y agoI was hoping Apple would get into TB5 for the M4 Macs.
- bzzzt 2y agoI'm very interested in your use case where 40Gbit/s is not more than enough.
- pier25 2y agoYou don't really have 40gbits for data transfer in tb3/4. A good chunk is reserved for display port data. Even when using USB4 I still haven't seen an ssd case that can use all that bandwidth. Use case is video editing and maybe even egpu for Blender.
- bzzzt 2y agoI don't think bandwidth is reserved. Thunderbolt3/USB4 is a 40Gbit link which can also carry display data. The USB-C stuff with dedicated lanes for Displayport is ignored then. There's no EGPU support on the M series, but even if you could you can just use the GPU output so the entire Thunderbolt bandwidth is dedicated to the PCI-E card.
- pier25 2y ago> I don't think bandwidth is reserved It is reserved. "Thunderbolt 4 has a maximum bandwidth of 40 Gb/s. However, this is a bit misleading because not all of that bandwidth can be used for data transfer. Approximately 8 Gbp/s can only be used for video, leaving 32 Gb/s for non-video data (PCIe 3.0: 4 lanes x 8 Gb/s). Further accounting for PCIe 8b/10b encoding and TB4's own overhead, you arrive at a peak data throughput of approximately 22 Gb/s. Not 40 Gb/s but not slow either." Source: https://tripplite.eaton.com/products/thunderbolt-4 https://tripplite.eaton.com/products/thunderbolt-4
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- tivert 2y agoMan, the sanctions against Russia really aren't working. They're even getting US technology before it's released to Americans!
- boffinAudio 2y agoSanctions never work, they are a crime against humanity because they only ever effect the lower classes of the target nation, and never its ruling class who are responsible for the acts being sanctioned in the first place. It is a broken approach to democracys' biggest failure: its lack of otherwise effective diplomacy when forced to engage with non-aligned foreign nations.
- whamlastxmas 2y agoSanctions absolutely cost the wealthy lots of money. It maybe doesn’t impact their quality of life but does cost them a lot of money, and we know how much they like money.
- boffinAudio 2y agoSanctions cost poor people their lives. They have no effect on the wealthy other than to motivate the wealthy to route around them - which they always do. Sanctions just don't work, never have and never will, and should be treated as crimes against humanity.
- tivert 2y ago> Sanctions absolutely cost the wealthy lots of money. It maybe doesn’t impact their quality of life but does cost them a lot of money, and we know how much they like money. So? Sanctions have accomplished very, very little. Is the Ukraine War over now because how much Russian elites "like money?" Oh wait, Ukraine is still losing. The fantasy of sanctions is that "they like money" so much that they can be controlled like puppets by using it. It's a lie. In reality, they're a tactic whose effectiveness is vastly overstated because of unwillingness to take real action, for various reasons. They do have an effect, but it's limited, short-term, and circumventable.
- spockz 2y agoI have one gripe with these awesome machines, the cpu core scheduling. As part of developing our application we run benchmarks. Now every so often we get strange performance dips that I can only attribute to either or both the load generation process or the application process temporarily being scheduled on an efficiency core. On macOS native there would be profilers I could use to at least detect it. But when using docker that gets all smudged into a single vm process. Does anyone know how to detect this? Or better prevent? The only way I found is making a development kernel build to switch the boot core to a performance core and then disable all efficiency core. This is not practical on company hardware.
- saagarjha 2y agoIf you quiesce the rest of the VM then you should be able to correlate the CPU usage of the virtualization process to your workload, right?
- spockz 2y agoIn our setup we have multiple processes. The application that we are benchmarking itself, plus our the process that generates the load plus any optional dependencies of the application. These all are scheduled over the number of cores of the docker vm. From the outside it is hard to track which internal process was scheduled where.
- andruby 2y agoYou can use “taskpolicy - b <command>” on MacOS cli to force it on a performance core. I’ve had to use it when doing benchmarking as I also noticed variations due to migrations. Not sure if you can combine that with docker though.
- spockz 2y agoThank you that is nice. I will try tomorrow to see whether it has effect. According to the man page I need `-B`: Move target process out of PRIO_DARWIN_BG. This will still allow scheduling on both the performance and the efficiency cores though. No way to only pin it to performance cores
- x0xMaximus 2y agoAssuming this is real, I can't help but think this could push Apple to accelerate their reduction on Chinese production. Is there any other realistic way this could have leaked other than through a Chinese backdoor? Are these being made at Quanta or Foxconn? Since the start of the war, there has been a massive increase in sanction evasion through China and Central Asia. I would have to assume Valentin used a connection that has formed over the past 2 years in order to get a North American SKU as Russia's richest YouTube blogger
- jnaina 2y agoApple is now making some of the MacBooks in Vietnam. Quite a bit of the Russian diaspora in Vietnam.
- yieldcrv 2y agoI just want to know max RAM configuration in the laptop form factor, and the memory bandwidth. I would like more than 800Gb/s memory bandwidth My M1 Max can do everything I want it to, although it maxes out at 64gb RAM. but my use cases expand above 128gb and would change my approach specifically would allow my machine to act as nodes on more distributed networks, maybe even Solana, and run larger language models - at all and faster
- raxxorraxor 2y agoWhile direct memory access of Macs is nice, they still do have performance issues compared to a PC GPU. Of course the pricing would be entirely different with >128gb here. Seems like Apple is the budget solution now. I use an adapted LLM on an old M1 macbook air and it runs very well, even for autocompleting code. Image synthesis is quite slow though, even on newer Apple chips. Hope the moat of nvidia dies soon.
- yieldcrv 2y agoI use lower parameter LLM's on M1's with very little RAM as well. but 70B+ would be useful for me too
- submeta 2y agoIn my case going from M2 to M3 with more RAM (from 16 GB to 36 GB) will give me a greater performance increase than going from M2 to M4 both with 16 GB.
- bhouston 2y agoThe box is distinctly for an M3 MacBook Pro from the design. Apple has a different screen on each version and the M3 had the black/grey pipes design features in the video. https://www.reddit.com/r/macgaming/comments/17g3xh0/leaked_macbook_pro_m3_pro_box/ https://www.reddit.com/r/macgaming/comments/17g3xh0/leaked_m... Did Apple reuse the graphics on M4? I suspect not. Is this a review unit that was released early with unofficial packaging? I didn’t realize Apple did that?
- znpy 2y ago“Space black” is considered an upgrade nowadays?
- idk1 2y agoI feel like we can say this is not real, I'm leaning in that direction, Apple would rarely launch a new laptop without changing the background image, each new one gets a new wallpaper. It's a core part of making the laptop look new in their marketing and on the boxes.
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- amanzi 2y agoI'm sure the next MacBook Pro won't have a notch. This was a stupid design decision and was only done to align with the "distinctive" notch of the iPhone. Now that this is gone, I'm sure the next the MacBook Pro will have the same dynamic island thing.
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- refurb 2y agoMy question is - how does a Russian guy get his hands on an unreleased Apple product? Smuggled out of a factory? I would have guessed Apple had security locked down tight for new products. I know it's China, but usually dangling "Apple will punish you by pulled future products" is enough incentive.