5 ms·

I find it absurd how Americans can't give up on their suburbs and car centric development dystopia and then spend so much time in their cars.

galdosdi 2y ago
That's the nice thing about the Bay Area, you get to have the best of both -- live in a shoebox with no green space AND commute for hours to your job.
hiatus 2y ago
What steps do you suggest an average person take?
- epolanski 2y ago
  None? This has to be dealt with at city planning level by investing in proper public transport. Because money in US only subsidizes car drivers.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
worstspotgain 2y ago
People would go for condos if there were cheap large ones nearby. Alas, the supply restrictionists blocked all vertical development decades ago in order to inflate prices 10x and capture tech wages. That left SFHs and townhomes in far away places.
- angmarsbane 2y ago
  +1 for family sized (3 bedroom condos) if they existed close to work we could have families and jobs - imagine!
  - ktosobcy 2y ago
    I'm living in smaller-ish city in Spain, we rent ~120m2 2bedroom flat for ~650€ and it's city center so we don't even think about getting a car as it would be more hassle to take it out of the garage then actually walking to the nearest shop. Lots of squares / parks around usually full of kids playing :)
  - worstspotgain 2y ago
    Now that's crazy talk. You have to sign over most of your future earnings to the guy who's selling you the property, in exchange for (hopefully) getting the next guy to fork over most of theirs. The game is so hardcore that the pyramid scheme is as strong as ever.
tesch1 2y ago
Because door-to-door transport is faster than public transportation. Average American commute time is 26 minutes, what is it where you live? https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter8/urban-transport-challenges/average-commuting-time/#:~:text=Source%3A%20OECD.,minutes%20in%20the%20United%20States https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter8/urban-trans....
- ktosobcy 2y ago
  Well... in most cases in densely populated places you simply can walk to the job or ride a bike. In BCN for example commute would be most of the time ~15-20 minutes (walking+metro). Car would easily take twice as much. Of course if you are living in urban sprawl and nothing is close and even getting something to eat requires "a trip" then yeah - door-to-door car would probably be "better"
- longnt80 2y ago
  They didn't necessary talk about time in commute. Maybe they thought spending time inside cars was useless. Sure your commute is shorter but most Americans also have to drive everywhere in their cars. To be honest, it's shit. Edit: also, the chart is too simple to know how they conducted and came up with the data.
  - tesch1 2y ago
    Tbf, some Americans might think it's shit to live life in a 100 m^2 box they don't even own and commuting in a crowded stinky wagon for longer than 26 minutes. Not sure there's just one right way to live though. I wasn't saying there is, just sharing some data to a discussion oblivious to the realities of most Americans.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- kstrauser 2y ago
  Not where I live. A bus ride takes about half an hour to get to downtown SF. The same drive during rush hour would take an hour, easy. You couldn’t make me drive to work here.
10xalphadev 2y ago
I live within an European city - not downtown, but relatively close. My commute by car over ~10km is 18-20 mins, same distance by public transport takes 40-50 mins, depending on train reliability and workers not striking. So change my mind?
- longnt80 2y ago
  I don't intent to change your mind because it's often that people are stuck to their opinions. Just want to say that sitting in public transports I can do other things such as doing some work or reading a book. While sitting in a car feels terrible to me. 30 minutes of driving a car is a lot worse than sitting in public transport. Also, if I have to commute by walk/bike, I also feel much better.
  - tomcam 2y ago
    > Just want to say that sitting in public transports I can do other things such as doing some work or reading a book. In my experience that kind of activity was often not possible, especially in cases where one bus was late and I had go worry about getting to the connecting stop on time. Likewise I couldn't really read b/c I might get distracted and miss a connection. This was all pre-Internet and of course pre-unlimited data plan. These days I might have a downright pleasurable experience on public transport listening to podcasts under those conditions. Except here in Seattle there are just too many maniacs on some lines.
- epolanski 2y ago
  What's there to change your mind? There are areas that are poorly connected and cars are much more convenient. I live outside Rome, Italy, my SO works downtown. It takes her 35ish minutes to get to work by train, it would take her way more than one hour by car. Hell, it takes her colleagues living in Rome center often an hour to get to work on a 6 km drive. The funniest thing was when I worked with a guy that commuted by train from Naples! That's 150 miles away. And he would still get back home quicker by train than people living in Rome.
RobRivera 2y ago
Yes, we Americans love our cars, oil, wars, wwf, and guns.
- worstspotgain 2y ago
  Well at least we still donate to preserve endangered species. 1 out of 5 ain't bad!
  - abeyer 2y ago
    But only because we're confused and think we're still paying for pro wrestling. :D
itsoktocry 2y ago
>I find it absurd how Americans can't give up on their suburbs and car centric development dystopia and then spend so much time in their cars I agree that kind of commute is insane, but maybe we don't all want to raise our families in shoe boxes (often surrounded by filth and crime) in the city centre (as if everyone in France lives in downtown Paris). You may find that thrilling, but I don't. None of it.
- Aeolun 2y ago
  There is zero relation between filth and crime, and living in the city centre. At least inherently. There may be a correlation where you live.
  - badlibrarian 2y ago
    "In 2005, Harvard University and Suffolk University researchers worked with local police to identify 34 "crime hot spots" in Lowell, Massachusetts. In half of the spots, authorities cleared trash, fixed streetlights, enforced building codes, discouraged loiterers, made more misdemeanor arrests, and expanded mental health services and aid for the homeless. In the other half of the identified locations, there was no change to routine police service. The areas that received additional attention experienced a 20% reduction in calls to the police. The study concluded that cleaning up the physical environment was more effective than misdemeanor arrests." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory
    - Aeolun 2y ago
      I’m not sure what you are trying to say? It feels like you should be trying to refute what I said, but it’s actually in agreement?
      - Izkata 2y ago
        They probably read your comment as three things instead of two (I did at first and had to take a second look). Tighter binding between the paired items might make it read better, instead of the awkwardly placed comma: > There is zero relation between filth/crime and living in the city centre.
doitLP 2y ago
I find it tiresome how someone who lives elsewhere thinks we can waive a magic wand and change trillions in infrastructure and a century of entrenched car culture. Unless you have workable solutions please keep the peanut gallery comments to yourself. There are solutions but they are the hard “get people to buck all incentives and change their behavior for the common good” kind that take a lot of work.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  I'm not sure what other people can do, but personally I decided that instead of wishing in vain that the place I lived in was this way, I moved across the world to a new city and country where I could live car-free. Now I ride a bicycle to work and use subways and trains to get around on the weekends. Vote with your feet, I guess.
Foobar8568 2y ago
I am at 2h30 total commute, and will be soon at 3h-3h30, in Switzerland. At least, I can work remotely 2days+what ever I need depending of the day.
- ktosobcy 2y ago
  Uhm... that's like almost getting from one side of Switzerland to another (Zurich-Basel is like 1h by train?)
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    Maybe he lives and works somewhere that's not point to point connected by a direct train connection as the crow flies.
  - Foobar8568 2y ago
    Well there are plenty of people going from Montreux or further to Geneva. With the changes in schedule, any trains going around the lake past Renens will be slower by at least 5min. Over the years, I had met several workers who were doing 2h+ per leg commute.
- worstspotgain 2y ago
  Holy Schweiz
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  Holy shit that commute is crazy. Have you requested to work fully remote?

galdosdi 2y ago

That's the nice thing about the Bay Area, you get to have the best of both -- live in a shoebox with no green space AND commute for hours to your job.

hiatus 2y ago

What steps do you suggest an average person take?

epolanski 2y ago
None? This has to be dealt with at city planning level by investing in proper public transport. Because money in US only subsidizes car drivers.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

worstspotgain 2y ago

People would go for condos if there were cheap large ones nearby. Alas, the supply restrictionists blocked all vertical development decades ago in order to inflate prices 10x and capture tech wages. That left SFHs and townhomes in far away places.

angmarsbane 2y ago
+1 for family sized (3 bedroom condos) if they existed close to work we could have families and jobs - imagine!
- ktosobcy 2y ago
  I'm living in smaller-ish city in Spain, we rent ~120m2 2bedroom flat for ~650€ and it's city center so we don't even think about getting a car as it would be more hassle to take it out of the garage then actually walking to the nearest shop. Lots of squares / parks around usually full of kids playing :)
- worstspotgain 2y ago
  Now that's crazy talk. You have to sign over most of your future earnings to the guy who's selling you the property, in exchange for (hopefully) getting the next guy to fork over most of theirs. The game is so hardcore that the pyramid scheme is as strong as ever.

tesch1 2y ago

Because door-to-door transport is faster than public transportation. Average American commute time is 26 minutes, what is it where you live? https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter8/urban-transport-challenges/average-commuting-time/#:~:text=Source%3A%20OECD.,minutes%20in%20the%20United%20States https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter8/urban-trans....

ktosobcy 2y ago
Well... in most cases in densely populated places you simply can walk to the job or ride a bike. In BCN for example commute would be most of the time ~15-20 minutes (walking+metro). Car would easily take twice as much. Of course if you are living in urban sprawl and nothing is close and even getting something to eat requires "a trip" then yeah - door-to-door car would probably be "better"
longnt80 2y ago
They didn't necessary talk about time in commute. Maybe they thought spending time inside cars was useless. Sure your commute is shorter but most Americans also have to drive everywhere in their cars. To be honest, it's shit. Edit: also, the chart is too simple to know how they conducted and came up with the data.
- tesch1 2y ago
  Tbf, some Americans might think it's shit to live life in a 100 m^2 box they don't even own and commuting in a crowded stinky wagon for longer than 26 minutes. Not sure there's just one right way to live though. I wasn't saying there is, just sharing some data to a discussion oblivious to the realities of most Americans.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
kstrauser 2y ago
Not where I live. A bus ride takes about half an hour to get to downtown SF. The same drive during rush hour would take an hour, easy. You couldn’t make me drive to work here.

10xalphadev 2y ago

I live within an European city - not downtown, but relatively close. My commute by car over ~10km is 18-20 mins, same distance by public transport takes 40-50 mins, depending on train reliability and workers not striking. So change my mind?

longnt80 2y ago
I don't intent to change your mind because it's often that people are stuck to their opinions. Just want to say that sitting in public transports I can do other things such as doing some work or reading a book. While sitting in a car feels terrible to me. 30 minutes of driving a car is a lot worse than sitting in public transport. Also, if I have to commute by walk/bike, I also feel much better.
- tomcam 2y ago
  > Just want to say that sitting in public transports I can do other things such as doing some work or reading a book. In my experience that kind of activity was often not possible, especially in cases where one bus was late and I had go worry about getting to the connecting stop on time. Likewise I couldn't really read b/c I might get distracted and miss a connection. This was all pre-Internet and of course pre-unlimited data plan. These days I might have a downright pleasurable experience on public transport listening to podcasts under those conditions. Except here in Seattle there are just too many maniacs on some lines.
epolanski 2y ago
What's there to change your mind? There are areas that are poorly connected and cars are much more convenient. I live outside Rome, Italy, my SO works downtown. It takes her 35ish minutes to get to work by train, it would take her way more than one hour by car. Hell, it takes her colleagues living in Rome center often an hour to get to work on a 6 km drive. The funniest thing was when I worked with a guy that commuted by train from Naples! That's 150 miles away. And he would still get back home quicker by train than people living in Rome.

RobRivera 2y ago

Yes, we Americans love our cars, oil, wars, wwf, and guns.

worstspotgain 2y ago
Well at least we still donate to preserve endangered species. 1 out of 5 ain't bad!
- abeyer 2y ago
  But only because we're confused and think we're still paying for pro wrestling. :D

itsoktocry 2y ago

>I find it absurd how Americans can't give up on their suburbs and car centric development dystopia and then spend so much time in their cars I agree that kind of commute is insane, but maybe we don't all want to raise our families in shoe boxes (often surrounded by filth and crime) in the city centre (as if everyone in France lives in downtown Paris). You may find that thrilling, but I don't. None of it.

Aeolun 2y ago
There is zero relation between filth and crime, and living in the city centre. At least inherently. There may be a correlation where you live.
- badlibrarian 2y ago
  "In 2005, Harvard University and Suffolk University researchers worked with local police to identify 34 "crime hot spots" in Lowell, Massachusetts. In half of the spots, authorities cleared trash, fixed streetlights, enforced building codes, discouraged loiterers, made more misdemeanor arrests, and expanded mental health services and aid for the homeless. In the other half of the identified locations, there was no change to routine police service. The areas that received additional attention experienced a 20% reduction in calls to the police. The study concluded that cleaning up the physical environment was more effective than misdemeanor arrests." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory
  - Aeolun 2y ago
    I’m not sure what you are trying to say? It feels like you should be trying to refute what I said, but it’s actually in agreement?
    - Izkata 2y ago
      They probably read your comment as three things instead of two (I did at first and had to take a second look). Tighter binding between the paired items might make it read better, instead of the awkwardly placed comma: > There is zero relation between filth/crime and living in the city centre.

doitLP 2y ago

I find it tiresome how someone who lives elsewhere thinks we can waive a magic wand and change trillions in infrastructure and a century of entrenched car culture. Unless you have workable solutions please keep the peanut gallery comments to yourself. There are solutions but they are the hard “get people to buck all incentives and change their behavior for the common good” kind that take a lot of work.

shiroiushi 2y ago
I'm not sure what other people can do, but personally I decided that instead of wishing in vain that the place I lived in was this way, I moved across the world to a new city and country where I could live car-free. Now I ride a bicycle to work and use subways and trains to get around on the weekends. Vote with your feet, I guess.

Foobar8568 2y ago

I am at 2h30 total commute, and will be soon at 3h-3h30, in Switzerland. At least, I can work remotely 2days+what ever I need depending of the day.

ktosobcy 2y ago
Uhm... that's like almost getting from one side of Switzerland to another (Zurich-Basel is like 1h by train?)
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  Maybe he lives and works somewhere that's not point to point connected by a direct train connection as the crow flies.
- Foobar8568 2y ago
  Well there are plenty of people going from Montreux or further to Geneva. With the changes in schedule, any trains going around the lake past Renens will be slower by at least 5min. Over the years, I had met several workers who were doing 2h+ per leg commute.
worstspotgain 2y ago
Holy Schweiz
Rinzler89 2y ago
Holy shit that commute is crazy. Have you requested to work fully remote?