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We avoid effort even though it can improve our well-being
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- faangbook 2y agoI will give a big eye roll from the CFS/Long Covid club. And I wonder if CFS exists to some extent in everyone who isn't doing ultramarathons ... in other words the nervous system prevents the average person from running 100km a day (or being able to get to that point) BUT... doesn't stop them doing daily life stuff, or keeping basically fit. I am not sure lazy is even a thing.
- nradov 2y agoI know a number of very average people who have completed ultramarathons. If you're just trying to finish and not win then pretty much anyone can do it as long as they put in the training time. There's no real nervous system inhibition.
- klez 2y ago> There's no real nervous system inhibition. I think they're talking about the will to make it, not the ability to.
- nmdeadhead 2y agoUltramarathoning is, IMO, often misunderstood. However, volunteering at an ultramarathon aid station is a great way to get exposed to the sport, since you'll get to see a wide variety of people participating, whereas if you only know one or two ultra runners you may assume everyone is like they are. UltraSignup [0] is one way to search out ultras for which you may want to volunteer. [0] https://ultrasignup.com/events/search.aspx https://ultrasignup.com/events/search.aspx
- naming_the_user 2y agoThere is no paradox inherent here. What people colloquially call laziness could well be a mental imbalance, physical disability, combination of the two. The reality is that the world isn't fluffy rainbows. Some people just get dealt a bad hand and they're not as capable as others.
- brabel 2y agoGoing to the gym is like that for me: I really hesitate and don't feel like it before going, but once I've done it, it feels much better than if I just sit at home doom scrolling or watching TV.
- ykonstant 2y agoFrustratingly, for me this loop persists chronically: I have a block of doing X, I do X, it feels great, next day I have the same block; and this block never truly disappears. Like a friend of mine said, don't depend on motivation; dogged consistency is the only way, and that is true for me :( Very exhausting.
- jvanderbot 2y agoOh don't get me started. My mind will actually conjure up disasters in adjacent parts of my life to make me forget what's going on that I should be working on. I'll get all anxious about X, when I'm really just avoiding Y. The more I focus on X, the more I'm avoiding Y, so the worse I feel about X. There's a little bit of self-cognitive behavioral therapy that I learned through journalling. Once I recognize it I can either A) just ignore my thoughts ('I am not that, that is not me' over and over?) or B) procrastinate productively by saying I'll deal with X later.
- sevensor 2y agoProductive procrastination is where it’s at. Find something mundane, uninspiring, and mandatory, and avoid it by doing something else instead right up to the last minute. Just make sure something else is also work that you wanted to do.
- nradov 2y agoChampion ultra runner David Goggins talks about staring at his running shoes for 30 minutes, trying to work up the motivation to put them on and get out the door.
- matwood 2y ago
- SebFender 2y agoI think the key here is finding "truly meaningful activities". Many focus on making more money. If it isn't about money, it isn't really something meaningful... From training to playing music, I usually find myself in "remote" conversations about consumption, money, politics. It is extremely rare I hear about truly meaningful subjects. I'm sure someone else has a similar perspective?
- gpvos 2y agoTrue. Meanwhile society requires you to make at least some money, which I find uninteresting, and I have currently no good ideas on how to combine it with something meaningful or rewarding to me. Politics can be meaningful, but also a huge struggle in itself.
- SebFender 2y agoIt has been a constant challenge for me to link necessary revenues, intent and interest. I think I found a solid balance, but it remains a constant struggle when being part of discussions - personally and professionally...
- spoonfeeder006 2y agoCant get past paywal, but my amateur view on this is something like this: You have a car trying to get up a hill. If it gets past the peak there is a huge downard road that it can just coast on endlessly. But if you'r engine is too weak that makes no difference whatsoever I would suppose the same thing with the brain. You need enough neurotransmitters such as dopamine to fire and exert a behavior change. And then there is a reward that causes overall improvements in the body's functionality. Without enough neurotransmitters though, you just can't do it I find that learning self compassion and letting go of stress has helped me to an extent. Beating yourself for procrastinating only adds internal tension Just as we should strive to forgive others, and (if they seem well intentioned and not shamelessly deceitful) to be kind and patient with them, it is equally important to do the same with ourselves Learning to not dwell on our imperfections is equally important as having the self awareness to recognize our flaws And in doing so that helps streamline our thoughts to give us more motivation For some people medication like adderall can also be really helpful
- hk_flying_gear 2y agoWow, this comment made my day. Very insightful.
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- spoonfeeder006 2y agoYeah, goes to show that if a person (or ourselves) is struggling with an impairment, a weakness, or a fault, then being compassionate with them (or ourselves) is an act of truthfullness. Its not just "oh you gotta be nice to everyone, just cuz you have to" but rather recognizing that there is a process inside all of us that needs troubleshooting And depending on the underlying issue a different remedy is needed > The path to guidance is one of love and compassion, not of force and coercion. -The Bab So constantly thinking about the failure to the point of forming an identity as a failure isn't helpful. So it can take effort to look past that and instead problem solve on what went wrong and how to correct it in the future And if the failure happens a hundred thousand times, keeping that positive forward thinking process is itself a meritorious act I believe, since its a step away from being unhelpful to ourselves That said, I would say that with some actions, e.g. intentionally harming others in a serious and irraparable way, that troubleshooting then requires a punishment from society, but that is also kindness since it helps the offender grow by forcing consequences of their crime on them. But punishment should not be abusive or cruel like it often is today But yeah, I would say we all have a lot of baggage to let go of to find true freedom, individually and collectively by taking part in genuinely contributing to society in our best possible way Most of these ideas are inspired by Baha'i teachings, e.g. the Bab and Abdul-Baha, as well as from the book Tiny Habits by B.J. Fogg, and Allen Carr's books about addiction
- hu3 2y agoPaper referred by the article: The Effort Paradox: Effort Is Both Costly and Valued Michael Inzlicht Amitai Shenhav Christopher Y. Olivola PDF direct link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172040/pdf/nihms-989921.pdf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172040/pdf/nih... Page: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172040/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172040/ edit: fixed link. Thank you gpvos!
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- peoplefromibiza 2y agoI skimmed through the paper and skipped the article (paywalled) and I am absolutely no expert in the field. I've found the premises of the paper very interesting and I think the so called effort paradox can be also framed in reverse: we make the effort when we think it will be rewarding hence we then appreciate what we obtained more. One personal example for me is solving programming problems: I sit down for hours to solve them because solving the problem is my goal and looking up the solution in some LLM chat bot would not give me the same feeling but for someone whose goal is using the solution for their goals, relying on an LLM is avoiding a cost to focus their energies on what's really important to them. I don't know if people really are lazy, I think most of them are smart enough to think through what to invest on and what not. As someone else also said consistency is key, whatever it's easy for us today has been difficult at the beginning, the reward might come years later we started the journey.
- ersiees 2y agoSomeone having a non paywall link?
- gpvos 2y agoThe actual paper by Michael Inzlicht, linked in the first part of the article and also in a comment here, seems to be quite readable.
- austin-cheney 2y agoThere is no paradox as the article describes. Psychology already knows effort from initiative is the result of conscientiousness. They just don’t know how to measure it. What they do know is that higher conscientiousness is inherently good up to a point. Extreme conscientiousness is associated OCD type anxiety disorders. Low conscientiousness is inherently bad, so much so that it’s the primary characteristic of any number of disorders such as ADHD and autism. Conscientiousness is also negatively correlated to intelligence at around -0.27. That being said some people will always avoid effort no matter how immediately associated that effort connects to a goal while other people find joy in an effort merely for the sake of their own industriousness. Although psychology is greatly challenged to associate any form of metric to observable efforts necessary to measure it psychology can still readily identify it. I can also prove and demonstrate how conscientiousness relates to programming. For example many JavaScript developers cannot write the instructions to navigate a tree model, such as file system or DOM. The effort is just too great and they cannot do it even with years of programming experience. I can take a much less intelligent military soldier with no prior programming experience and teach them to master this skill within four hours of education, and their corresponding output will be vastly superior to that of the experienced programmer who cannot perform that sort of navigational effort. There is no paradox to any of this.
- hnthrow501 2y ago>I can also prove and demonstrate how conscientiousness relates to programming. For example many JavaScript developers cannot write the instructions to navigate a tree model, such as file system or DOM. The effort is just too great and they cannot do it even with years of programming experience. I can take a much less intelligent military soldier with no prior programming experience and teach them to master this skill within four hours of education, and their corresponding output will be vastly superior to that of the experienced programmer who cannot perform that sort of navigational effort. There is no paradox to any of this. Do you have any resources on this? I have adhd and I have difficulties in these areas.
- austin-cheney 2y agoUnfortunately I have no resources on this. Several years ago I thought I knew what ADHD and autism were, but I was so very wrong. It took a person with such traits moving into my house for me to really appreciate the extra effort required. One of my military colleagues also recently suggested I might be ADHD as well. My best recommendation is to achieve familiarity through practice. That is your only hurdle. Once this becomes almost like muscle memory it will simply feel normal instead of feeling like extra effort. Once that feeling settles in you limits on this activity are gone. I also recommend gamifying the experience to make the practice more enjoyable. Gamification can include seeing how fast you can get something to execute or seeing new areas of expressiveness or flexibility you can achieve that are more challenging in other ways.
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- yapyap 2y agoit’s pay-/ subwalled sadly, I tried archive.ph, 12ft, google cache (just found out google killed it :/) and the usual web archive. All walled off
- toastau 2y agoPaywallskip https://archive.md/8jieq https://archive.md/8jieq
- gpvos 2y agoNot really.
- gpvos 2y agoHit the paywall, but while trying to circumvent it DuckAssist did give some interesting insight when searching on the article title: > Many people avoid effort due to an instinctual desire to conserve energy, a trait that has evolved over time. This reluctance is often compounded by negative associations with effort, such as past experiences with exercise or a lack of confidence, leading to a preference for sedentary activities despite the long-term benefits of physical activity for well-being.
- nayroclade 2y agoI think you encounter this idea of effort adding value a lot in the arts. If a book (or film, album, etc.) is particularly long or "difficult", it can add something to the experience and achievement of reading it. And correspondingly there is an inherent suspicion of anything that is just too readable or popular, the feeling being that anything so easily consumed must be of little value.
- halfcat 2y agoI always find the Fogg behavior model [0] helpful to analyze why I choose one behavior over the other. B = MAP Behavior = Motivation * Ability * Prompt Take the little graph he shows, which plots ability/easiness along the X-axis, and motivation along the Y-axis. Put two of them side by side, and plot each decision according to how easy/hard it is for you, and how motivated you are. Whichever plot is closer to the top-right is the one you’ll choose. Try this by comparing: 1. Wake up to your alarm on your phone (P=1), a bunch of Instagram/Youtube notifications (M=.97), and it’s so easy to scroll you can do it with one finger (A=.98). This is at the top-right of the graph. 2. Get out of bed, find your running shoes (P=0), go for a run (M=.6, A=.5). This is in the middle of the graph but also invisible (no prompt). So you pick laying in bed scrolling over going for a run every time. You can flip this by, say, getting an alarm clock that’s not your phone and putting your phone in another room, and placing your bright green running shoes next to your bed. A key observation here is that P is the most powerful lever in this equation, where often things like social media or junk food are always going to be near the top-right of the graph, so the primary means of attacking those is removing the prompt. The next most effective lever to adjust is A (ability), placing barriers in your way of the undesirable thing, and removing barriers from the desired behavior. The least consistent lever is M (motivation). It’s sometimes possible to increase or decrease our motivation, perhaps by journaling on the benefits of exercise and the drawbacks of social media, but that can be inconsistent or be a long-term effort to adjust intrinsic motivation. Motivation is also less consistent, a powerful source when you have it but not always there reliably. [0] https://behaviormodel.org/ https://behaviormodel.org/
- authorfly 2y agoReally interesting as a model of behaviour; and self-empowering. One thing I wonder, can I ask you? it's quite - prudish - but what do you do about innate motivation and needs? E.g. when I am not in a relationship, I'm either: - relieving things daily at the same time - sporadically going days without, then multiple times a day etc - withholding from that behavior before dates These 3 all have pros and cons. I wish I could just withdraw totally, but that's not an option. I don't understand you can minimize a thing that has an ever growing P over time unless you take some action.
- aaron695 2y ago[dead]
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- monkfish328 2y agoI often say, "happiness is over a hill". :)
- Ferret7446 2y agoIsn't this just the same as loss avoidance? People will choose to avoid a certain loss over a possible gain. Expending effort is essentially a certain loss for gain that is not 100% certain.