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Life, death, and retirement

senko 2y ago
Sadly it often takes a devastating life event to make us rethink our position and priorities in life. We work to live, not live to work, and don't you let any overachieving founder mode startup bro sell you otherwise. Sorry for the author's loss.
- jajko 2y ago
  Most of the time, those over-achievers from the outside lead a very unhappy, constantly unfulfilled life. I've met few of those up close (former girlfriends, close friends) and oh boy its a sad view once you see full picture. Success is never really enjoyed for long, there is always next target to chase. Close people around suffer accordingly. Then when you know what signs to look for, you see it a lot more among those 'very successful'. There is one success for me - living a good life that one is happy to have lived when looking back old/dying. Good, sometimes hard moral choices instead of less moral shortcuts. A lot of people put themselves a lot of such baggage over years and from young happy folks they are grumpy envious older ones (there are many more reasons for such of course). Whatever such success means to you, all the power to you. For most of us, work achievement are pretty low in that list, so look for success elsewhere in life.
  - jebarker 2y ago
    From experience, I can say that If you were conditioned from a young age to believe that achievement and status were important in life it’s an incredibly hard instinct to let go of. You’re totally right that it’s damaging for those around you and can lead to bitterness as you age. It’s something I have to grapple with everyday and it’s exhausting.
    - parpfish 2y ago
      I think this is a curse that gets inflicted on far too many “gifted” children. While young they get lots of praise for their accomplishments and outcomes and it can drown out any intrinsic motivation to do things that make them happy.
      - jebarker 2y ago
        Exactly, and well put. I have a hard time identifying those things that really make me happy without any external influence and an even harder time comfortably sitting with the idea that objective of my life should be personal happiness.
  - sokoloff 2y ago
    > Success is never really enjoyed for long, there is always next target to chase. That's a reason to carefully choose the next target, but frankly sounds awesome to me. I don't want to sit around and luxuriate recalling past successes that I'll never repeat. I'd much rather savor that for a short time and then set off for whatever is next in my short life.
  - mlhpdx 2y ago
    > Most of the time, those over-achievers from the outside lead a very unhappy, constantly unfulfilled life. Common, yes, but “most” is a great exaggeration in my experience. I am surrounded by people who have or are achieving above a standard deviation from the mean (completely qualitative). They are just regular people who happen to thrive on their projects (work or personal). I don’t know why or how our experiences can be so different.
- rthrth45y 2y ago
  We work to survive, I would not call this living for the vast majority of us. There is no possibility of re-assessing our priorities because not working is death. Anyone that has the ability to re-asses their priorities can only do so from a place of extreme privilege that most will never have access to. Plenty people with a cancer diagnoses just die because they cant afford any other option.
  - Ctyra 2y ago
    Exactly this. I have seen this a lot of the times first hand.
- rectang 2y ago
  I quit a gig that was great in a lot of ways — great product, great peers, great potential — primarily because of of an "overachieving founder mode startup" individual. This person was exquisitely talented and inspiring but ultimately the only way to participate in the company was to overdrive yourself to the point of misery. I stayed longer than perhaps I might have because that person was young enough to learn and change. And they definitely learned and changed over time, but not the lessons I thought they should learn. This doesn't make the direction they took objectively wrong, but eventually I and all the engineering peers I valued bailed out. It was frustrating because I remain convinced it didn't have to turn out the way that it did. But leaving was absolutely the right thing to do and I'm much happier now.
  - copperx 2y ago
    > It was frustrating because I remain convinced it didn't have to turn out the way that it did. That's the curse of the optimist. You may be an optimist at heart.
ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
That sucks, what he went through. That happens to a lot of people. As we get older, it tends to happen more often. Sounds like he made exactly the correct choice. I support him in continuing to make correct choices. This is but the first of many. I did it, myself, but not by choice. I was "frozen out" of the tech industry, after leaving a very long-term job. It absolutely infuriated me, at first, but, in the aggregate, it has turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to me. It also coincided with close family members having some health issues, so my being available has been beneficial. In my case, I really enjoy programming and tech; just not when it is being ruined by terrible managers and coworkers. I was really starting to hate what I did, and having full control of my own process, made all the difference. For one thing, it showed that I was usually right, in my personal philosophies, which were regularly disparaged by said managers. When given the chance to practice my own personal Process, things have been going very well, indeed. So I get to work for free. It's a blast. I've gotten more accomplished, in the seven years, since I was pushed out, than I did, in the thirty preceding years. In my case, I am involved in organizations that constantly surround me with people with whom I have very intimate relationships. Socializing isn't a problem; but I understand that it can be a real issue for retired people. This goes double, for ones that have the means to wall themselves off from others. I do know a number of folks that preceded me, in retirement, after long, lucrative careers. Most, were dead within five years of retirement. In my case, I feel that I'm just getting started.
- mxuribe 2y ago
  > ...I did it, myself, but not by choice. I was "frozen out" of the tech industry, after leaving a very long-term job...It absolutely infuriated me, at first, but, in the aggregate, it has turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to me... I would say i'm about a decade or maybe a decade and half before i can freely retire...But, already i see signs of the possibility of being frozen out of tech. Its such a fearful thing, and even moreso at a latter age! I quite enjoy technology both in isolation but also connecting proper tech to solve human problems...But so often it feels that at my $dayjobs, it always feels like we are solving the wrong problems...like chasing whatever some senior leader added into their presentation...as in, a goal for them, but not always something that is sustainable for the org, substantially helpful to people, etc. Its clear to me that while i still have the enthusiasm of my 25 year old around tech and genuinely helping people wit tech, i am so much more cynical about corporate use of tech. Nowadays, i'm at the point where i am seriously considering leaving tech, and trying to get some other job...and then only having fun with tech on the side, such as contributing to open source projects, playing on my own home lab, volunteering with orgs on digital divide, etc. I figure those sort of "hobbies" or side projects can also help me transition whenever the time comes for me to retire, of if/when i get pushed out. Now, i just have to ensure my costs are down so i can weather any salary hits. @ChrisMarshallNY Sorry that you got impacted by a freezing out...But glad to hear that you're getting started on a new phase of life for you, and hoping it keeps being positive for you! Cheers!!!
jmathai 2y ago
That sounds like a terrible year. I feel sorry for the poster. Life can come at you fast and sometimes I feel like I’m just bracing myself for such a life changing event. I too was at Google. But for 7 years, not 10. And my employment terminated in April, not because of a life event like his. But the feelings he expressed resonate with me. I stopped enjoying work and my performance tanked coinciding with a reorg and manager change. I did not miss my job which just a couple years ago I actually enjoyed. I wasn’t seriously thinking of leaving my job. Being pushed out forced me to evaluate what I do if that happened - which it did. And that evaluation is that I’m a lot happier and can reset what I want from life - it doesn’t have to be full on retirement. I have always thought about life in the long go term. What legacy do I want to leave, how do I want to spend the last years, what do I want the late years to look like with my wife. Sometimes it takes the outside world to force you into the next thing. Life does not discriminate but the best you can do is take a big step back and try to find a new lens to look at it through. There are many lenses.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
Mistletoe 2y ago
I retired early this year. My advice to anyone seeking to do so is think clearly about it. Because once you do it, you can never go back to that world. The world of waking up early, having a boss tell you what to do, going to meetings that mean absolutely nothing, running on that hamster wheel, seems so trite and meaningless afterwards. That's a good thing, but you can never go back. Then it becomes time to concentrate on what life is really about- your health, your relationships, having fun and discovering what life is like without that tether on your ankle. Everyone isn't cut out for that, some need that hamster wheel. The best people are cut out for it. :)
- p1esk 2y ago
  Sounds like you had a shitty job. Mine is great, I’d do it for free if I didn’t need the money.
  - deanmoriarty 2y ago
    Could you share more details about your job, if you don’t mind? I posted in a comment in this thread, but I changed 3 jobs in 4 years (a mix of FAANG and startups) and each one has been more miserable than the previous, so I can definitely relate with the previous poster. So I am wondering what kind of “normal job” people have that is so good that they’d do it for free.
    - tasuki 2y ago
      Not OP. Just optimize for happiness instead of money. I earn ten times less now than I used to. I work half the time and am twice as happy. (I work for a small local business in Eastern Europe, ten(ish) people, we don't earn much, but get a lot of freedom and the atmosphere at work is very nice)
      - deanmoriarty 2y ago
        What if you literally can’t think of a work position that would make you happy? Just talking out loud and not expecting an answer from you, but that’s just what was going on in my head while reading your comment. Perhaps I am too burned out, but I couldn’t imagine feeling happy working with a team, an manager and hard problems. Probably my “happy” job would consist in full agency with no managers, no peers to veto or judge or comment or compete on/with my work, extremely low intellectual requirements, part-time time commitment at best, and wages good enough to still make it objectively worth my time compared to my portfolio (shared a lot more context in another comment on this thread). I understand all this might be a tad unrealistic, so just venting.
djaychela 2y ago
Just had a cancer diagnosis (bile duct, I'm 53). Surgery in a months time will hopefully see me healthy again after it, but I've already decided to make changes even if it has spread and I only have a much shorter time to live. I always thought I'd contemplated life and death before this (I am not religious), but having had several weeks of genuinely not knowing if I only had a week to live, I think you only really do this fully in that kind of situation. Even if I am cured, my life and attitude will never be the same again.
- chrisweekly 2y ago
  Welcome to the club nobody wants to join. I had a similar experience 12 years ago. Pls email (address in bio) if I can be of any assistance (e.g. book recs). In any case, good luck w/ your surgery!
  - unshavedyak 2y ago
    It’s funny, I’ve always just been kinda waiting for death. Probably need meds but never felt like changing “who I am”. I’m curious to see what happens to me when that cancer day comes for someone so apathetic to the whole life experience.
- ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
  Back in ‘96, I had a brain tumor, operation, and learning to walk and chew gum again. Kind of a bummer. At the time, I wasn’t ready to retire, but if it had happened 20 years later, it probably would have resulted in my retirement.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  My mother suddenly passed from cancer last year at 68, that harrowing experience violently reshifted a lot of my life philosophies. This was perhaps exacerbated by both my grandparents on mom's side also passing just a couple years prior back to back. Among other things violently reshifted: * Time is finite, grows more valuable as I age, and I do not have as much as I think I do. It is imperative I live now, not tomorrow. * Time is money and money is time. Money in hand can be spent for others' time so I don't have to spend mine, and money can be replenished while my time cannot be. Money can also be borrowed, but I cannot borrow more time. It is imperative I live now, not tomorrow. * Take nothing for granted. Social Security being the prime example; my mother waited until 65 to start taking it and so she barely enjoyed only 3 years of it. I refuse to repeat that, I am taking Social Security at 62 ASAP and screw anyone trying to tell me otherwise for any reason. It is imperative I live now, not tomorrow. * People here today might not be here tomorrow, for any or no reason. The experience of spending time with them can only be had today. It is imperative I live now, not tomorrow. * Small problems are not worth the time of day, it is fine to resolve them in the quickest and easiest way possible. It is imperative I live now, not tomorrow. * Most of the goings-on in the world will come and go time and time again. If something comes up, it too shall pass and come up again in due time to pass again. It is imperative I live now, not tomorrow. * When I'm finally gone, I'm gone. It is not worth the time of day today to care about what happens after, I will be dead and literally can't care or interject. It is imperative I live now, not tomorrow.
d2049 2y ago
This is the person who was in the news a few years ago for commuting to Google campus using 19 different methods in 19 days https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZWftDrwY2U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZWftDrwY2U
fullshark 2y ago
The premise that your life should be work until 65 and then you can finally do what you want is so depressing to me. I have goals beyond just doing what I want, but it all just seems like an endless rat race i can never win as I chase money/prestige in order to accomplish those goals or those things serve as a nice but ultimately meaningless byproduct of accomplishing those goals while my life slips away.
- zeroonetwothree 2y ago
  I actually enjoy my job (well, mostly anyway). I would probably do it for free tbh (except for some of the BS parts)
  - fullshark 2y ago
    At this point I think most jobs have good days and bad days and there's some enjoyment/pride in being productive and valued in a job environment. I'm not full r/antiwork or anything but when you take a 10k foot view and realize almost no one on their death bed wishes they had spent more time working / on their computer it's hard to not feel like it's all a big miscalculation on our parts.
    - jkarneges 2y ago
      > almost no one on their death bed wishes they had spent more time working / on their computer And old age isn’t needed to figure this out. Even middle age will do. When I reflect on my life, I almost never think about past work. (Yet, I remain mostly working.)
    - zemvpferreira 2y ago
      On my deathbed I probably won't wish I had spent more time at the gym either, but that doesn't mean the gym is not good for me to engage with more often now. I've retired early and gone back to work voluntarily. I find the first 10 to 30 hours per week are good for me, and I genuinely enjoy employing people and working on projects with them. Not every week is exhilarating. Lots of weeks are dogshit and make me feel like going back to 100% life again. But over time, I feel more fulfilled when I try to contribute through work. I will surely reconsider that position when I become the Buddha, but likely not sooner if I keep my health and stay childless. (do go part-time as soon as you can, it's great)
robocat 2y ago
The main issue with turning the dial to "life" early is that your peer group usually hasn't. My peers spend most of their time on work: sometimes to pay the bills, sometimes for status laddering, sometimes for reasons I don't get. I have found friends that are less focused on work - sometimes because they have more control over their hours and sometimes because they are past retirement age and sometimes because they don't work for other reasons. I'm looking forward to the next decade+ as maybe more of my peer group friends will choose (or be able to choose) to do less work hours/days.
deanmoriarty 2y ago
First of all, truly sorry to the author for what happened to them, it is devastating, and something that indeed will shake your world and priorities. Any advice for people who are not finding the courage to quit, despite probably having the financial means to do so? I came from very humble origins and moved to Silicon Valley from another country and have a gained a fairly solid financial situation, by having accumulated $5.5M liquid with expenses of around $50k (no kids, no mortgage, just a loving girlfriend). I am so unhappy with work. I have changed 3 employers over the past 4 years and I’ve been more and more depressed with each transition. I spend my life in a state of immense disappointment about having to work. I am not even passionate about software anymore, so it’s not only the corporate madness (meetings, offices, coworkers, bosses, pressure to perform, code reviewers, etc). My weekends are filled with anxiety about Mondays. I haven’t quit yet because everyone is telling me not to: my parents, still living in another country, are telling me to milk it until I am 45 (38 now), the few close friends I have are telling me not to squander the opportunity to earn until I get to $10-$15M due to real estate/healthcare/lifestyle costs going up (especially if I revisit the decision not to have kids, which I don’t think I will), and even financial communities like bogleheads/fire subs are telling me it’s not time yet and that I need to accumulate more given my privileged position. I’ve tried a couple therapist but it didn’t work for me. I also do not have anything to retire to: no particular passions, or hobbies. I just dream of spending a life of slow breakfasts, hiking on Monday mornings to celebrate a new week, reading books, slow traveling, and spending more time close to my aging parents.
- zeroonetwothree 2y ago
  This sounds like classic burnout. You just need to take a break from work, try 3 months or so.
  - parpfish 2y ago
    Yeah, grandparent post should just take a year long sabbatical and come back when they’re feeling it.
  - deanmoriarty 2y ago
    What is the reason to suggest that a break from work, as opposed to a retirement (more similar to the author’s path), is more appropriate for my situation? Is it a concern about financials/age? After reading several people describing their experience (even in this thread) as “once you taste the freedom of not working, you will never be able to go back”, I can totally identify myself in that, so I like to think that the decision of “just take a 3 months break” would become a much more serious one.
cod1r 2y ago
Reading or seeing things like this on the internet also makes me reflect on my life and think about what my priorities should be, and I'm not really in a financial position where I can just retire and turn the dial all to way to "life" but the best thing I can learn from this is to appreciate the little things in life. Like living in a first world country, having food to eat, hot showers, a bed, good health, etc.
kubb 2y ago
If there's a bilionare here willing to give me a basic income until I pass, let me know. You could even give me a condition like doing social or creative work. The corporate world is tiring, and time flies by.
- hm-nah 2y ago
  Careful what you wish for. There are likely billionaires considering this very thing as a method of dealing with “the AI impact”. They will define what “…doing social or creative work…” entails, likely contractually, and then you’re right back where you started. I think, we need to rethink, where this basic income originates. - Philanthropic individual billionaires? - Mythical creatures. - Philanthropic trillionaires (aka: large govts or corps)? - Mythical creatures. - Collective individuals (aka: you and me)? - Now you’re on to something. Unfortunately, organizing humans is right up there with trench digging in terms of easy work.
oldpersonintx 2y ago
happy he is enjoying retirement. I hope to join his ranks shortly but for most of the people you work with in tech, retirement will just be a fantasy it is common for my coworkers to be forever-renters now, even those in their late forties and fifties...I don't see how you can stop working if you have to pay increasing rents over time its crazy how having kids, owning a home, and retiring all became privilege flexes
tokioyoyo 2y ago
I’m very sorry to hear that. It’s always sad to read posts like this one, as the time goes by, it hits me how I’ll relate to it sooner or later. Apologies for rambling below — I’m much younger (late 20s), don’t have too many worries in life as my parents, albeit older, still alive, my siblings are fine, friends are okay, don’t have that many financial troubles either at this point. That being said, a couple of years ago I got a text about a high school friend of mine passing away after years of fighting cancer. It was one of the weirdest emotions I’ve ever felt in my life, and I couldn’t (still can’t) understand why. I’ve seen my grandparents passing away in front of me, I’ve been to funerals, yet this one hit like a brick. At that point, it would’ve been about 10 years since I’ve talked to that friend of mine, maybe just exchanging some happy birthday messages from time to time. But we were fairly close in middle school, and later in high school as well, just the life drifted us apart, living in different cities and etc. Yet I remember the moment I read the text how he passed away. I remember being on a plane, and my entire mind being completely clouded for a week afterwards. It’s like a sudden realization of how life can be very short for some of us, and you can lose people out of nowhere. I understand I’ve been lucky enough to never experience it until that point of my life, but it really sucked. And it just sucks knowing how it’ll happen more and more, or might even happen to me. Anyways, it’s been about 2 years now, and I’ve lost all of my ambitions wrt my career. Took about 6 months off as well, which made me realize how small and fun the world is. I know for a fact I won’t be able to enjoy it as much in 30 years. But unfortunately I’m not at the point where I can do whatever I want yet. Until then, every work day is just a repeat of things I don’t care about, followed by 10-20km walks to feel something. I wish it wasn’t the case, because I consider myself slightly above average in terms of skills and getting things done. Every morning I wake up thinking if I found just one thing that I could throw my life or at least a couple years at, I would do a decent job. But it’s hard to convince myself that anything matters. Then I remember how people that I hold dear to myself might be gone as well, and it becomes another day of spiralling. Anyways, sorry for Sunday morning trauma dumping, but reading the OP’s story made me reflect on myself for a minute. Thank you.
- darkwater 2y ago
  You are young and it's good you are already questioning yourself and thinking about these things. It's usually a mid-life process :) Take the good bit about it, maybe: try to focus on living and not working, even if having a job that you like is definitely part of a good life.
shane_kerns 2y ago
I have a 10 year old daughter with a very rare genetic condition. She has no one to care for her if I pass away. She can't yet talk and operates at a 2year old level, autism is just one of the side effects of this genetic condition. She has learning challenges as well, can't read, write or understand very well. I need to leave behind substantial assets or money for her for her long term care. I would love to retire early too but I don't seem to have that luxury because if I do, I don't know what I will leave behind for my daughter's care. I've switched several jobs over the past decade only to find that there is nothing fulfilling from a job perspective. Nothing that adds value to other people's lives or even to my own, aside from a paycheck to pay for my own funeral and my daughter's future care. When the time comes I don't know how my daughter would manage my funeral and which bad people will try to take away everything that I leave behind for her for her care. I can't afford to give away 30% of my worth to law firms that will allegedly guarantee my daughter will be safe from some money hungry assisted living centers or other such nasty organizations and opening a special needs trust fund is equally expensive. I think I'll work my whole life or whatever is left of it, I'm 43 and also work in tech and this is a dying industry with AI taking up so many jobs like automation did in the automotive industry.So I'm not sure how many more good years I'll be able to work for, so I'm just going to put my head down and work humbly while I can.
- farts_mckensy 2y ago
  That's so difficult, man. I'm sorry. It shouldn't be this way.
- nine_zeros 2y ago
  I can’t begin to imagine the weight of your story, and I know there are no perfect words to ease the pain of living this life. Please know that my thoughts are with you during this. I can only imagine the depth of your concern for your daughter’s future, and I wish there were more I could offer. For now, please accept my deepest sympathy and a warm, virtual embrace.
- rexpop 2y ago
  [flagged]
vid 2y ago
I'm contemplating retirement. I find myself ostensibly in a workplace of high personal relevance, but it's going in the wrong direction, largely I think due to layers of disconnected professionalization that are supposed to have the answers, but the result is just a race to the bottom. I'd like to have more cash before retiring, but it'd be ok with a bit of restraint. It's mostly up to finding a good lifestyle. Thing is, I still enjoy 'tech;' the activity of programming, writing tests, designing things (even building workstations), constant learning, and the larger potential it brings to more than technical people, tied in with the sometimes distant idea that a more participatory world can be fairer and more peaceful. I wonder if an engaging hobby will appear that combines elements of free software, wikipedia, non-dominating personal perspective, and problem solving. People like solving puzzles, maybe we can help solve other people's puzzles too. I'm surprised it hasn't happened so far, but contributory culture has been abducted so many times, and the intentionally free/open world hasn't been very good at course correction. Which isn't surprising considering other powerful interests, including professionalization and the way "startups" took over with their compartmentalize and cash-out energy, the tech giants, and now of course AI (which could be part of a helpful system). "Sensemaking" was a thing for a while, but it's not really talked about anymore.
anonzzzies 2y ago
I sold my first company at 25 (25 years ago almost to the day now) and that was retirement money and then some (I cannot spend the yearly interest let's say), but i've never been interested in retiring. I like doing what I do and can't see myself ever quitting; if I do, I probably will be writing 8 bit shmups for 80s systems. Aka; building things.
- intelVISA 2y ago
  Freedom to work on your own projects is a form of retirement imo. Work is only 'work' because you're stuck building crapware for The Man. I'm jealous ofc :) gz
ryandrake 2y ago
Probably unpopular opinion here, but I hope OP feels blessed that he can retire to take care of himself and dial up his life after such a terrible event. Not all of us have that option. For most people, if someone in our family god forbid suddenly died, we would not be able to just take a month here to grieve, then another month there, then 3 more months, then just decide to retire. That is a rare privilege. The rest of us have to get right back to the grind while doing the terrible job of picking up the pieces during the evenings and weekends. I really envy people who lucked out in tech and can simply decide to retire like this. I guess I would say to the author (and others here in the comment section who somehow have $5M liquid saved up): "Turn your work/life dial over to life and move on as you are planning, but please be grateful and thankful that you ended up with such outlier financial results that allow you to do so." I think it's good for people who have these kinds of options to take a step back, reflect, and recognize how lucky they are. Like most, I know I will probably be having to work until something disables me and prevents me from working, regardless of what tragedies life decides to throw at me.
- markvdb 2y ago
  Rare is the western world tech worker without kids or debilitating illness who can not easily retire early.
  - sokoloff 2y ago
    The Shockingly Simple Math Behind Early Retirement: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/ https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-si...
    - ryandrake 2y ago
      As long as you are just expecting math and not a generalizable strategy for retirement. The "simple math" behind Mr. Money Mustache is: Have no mortgage, multiple properties providing income, a blog providing income (including making recommendations of financial services that provide him affiliate income), and have nothing go wrong with your life financially or health-wise... and then you can retire with no[1] income! OK I'll get right on that... Similar formula behind other get-wealthy motivational writers: Sell lots of books to people who gobble up get-wealthy motivational books, and collect royalties for life. MMM is Personal Finance Porn: A story of one guy's very lucky and privileged life path, not generalizable to everyone else's situation even though it's sold as that. [1] using a very flexible definition of "no"
_wire_ 2y ago
If you've never contemplated the value of your life, an encounter with death awakens novel feelings and thoughts, and may lead to changes in meaning. But changes can't escape your circumstances, which you must suffer nonetheless. Make any change in priorities and you're still as beholden to your life's vicissitudes. It's common with death to find sudden compassion for self and others, and a compassionate disposition may lead to remarkable changes of feelings about life and attenuate obsessive responses. This is not necessarily good. All thinking about death misapprehends the finality of death for thought. You can learn do what you want, but you can't conserve time. Life can't be optimized. Moreover, an efficient world would have prevented your existence in the first place. But there are trails left by others to follow. The time to make things right for yourself and others is always here and now. In any situation, there's a chance things can improve because you're here. And if you can't make things right here and now, maybe you can elsewhere later. Going for treatment? Appreciate the work of those treating you. Not going for treatment? Appreciate being of service to others. Don't understand the importance of your work? You have something to work on. Others don't understand where you're coming from? Be on lookout for others who need attention. Pass on enjoyment. —— Bob Dylan: The man in me will do nearly any task And as for compensation, there's a little he would ask It take a woman like you To get through to the man in me Storm clouds are raging all around my door I think to myself I might not take it any more Take a woman like your kind To find the man in me But, oh, what a wonderful feeling Just to know that you are near It sets my a heart a-reeling From my toes up to my ears The man in me will hide sometimes to keep from bein' seen But that's just because he doesn't wanna turn into some machine It take a woman like you To get through to the man in me
vvanders 2y ago
Fuck. I had Bruce as a teacher in one of our early CS classes at college, he showed us all sorts of black-magic performance tricks (at least as it appeared to us at the time) and that curiosity in wanting to understand the how/why played a large part in where I am today. I don't know if it's any consolation but I know he had an outsized impact on a number of us back then.
- brucedawson 2y ago
  Thanks. It's not really a consolation, but it does give me some happiness.
imroot 2y ago
About six years ago, my seven year old son passed away: he had liver cancer at a really young age, had a full liver transplant at six months, and lost all hearing as a side effect of the anti-rejection medications. It was a sudden turn -- he was participating in his school's holiday program on a Friday (spending the rest of the afternoon with me at work on his iPad because neither mom or the babysitter could pick him up) and had passed on a Wednesday. My job at the time gave me three days off before calling to ask me if I could come back to work, with my boss and HR on the line telling me that they also 'gave me the weekend' (since I was on-call when it happened). When I said that I needed more time away in order to deal with it, they fired me, then begged me to come back as a contractor a few months later. I was so upset over the things that happened that I turned them down -- it wasn't what I wanted to do and it wasn't how I wanted to be treated: I'm much more selective about where I'm working at these days.
- didgeoridoo 2y ago
  Good Lord. I hope your manager took an extremely long look in the mirror after that phone call. When my 5 month old daughter got her heart transplant, my manager at Salesforce essentially said, "be with your family, call us when things settle down." I'd only been there for 3 months. I took 3 weeks to get her home from the hospital, set up our new routine, and mentally reset. Didn't get a single work-related Slack, text, or call during that time. Might have just been a great manager, but I think the overall culture was a big factor too. Not sure if that's ever really something you can pick up on during the hiring process, though.
  - imroot 2y ago
    My manager was just following orders to protect his job: he has kids and a wife at home and I don’t blame him, but, he’s one of the few bosses that I don’t keep in communication with. I hope your daughter is doing better and is adapting to a normal life post-transplant.
  - brucedawson 2y ago
    My employer (Google) gave me four weeks of grief leave. That plus four weeks of cobbled-together vacation and unpaid time off was invaluable for giving me the time to deal with logistics and bureaucracy and then have some healing time. I am sure that it is difficult for smaller or less profitable companies to "do the right thing" even if they want to
dottjt 2y ago
I found out a week ago that my partner has stage 4 sarcoma. The prognosis is poor. It's been difficult because we have a 1 year old toddler, so naturally we can't go out and do something big without it affecting them. Furthermore, the cancer has inhibited her ability to move. At first it was complete shock. The next few days were complete confusion and sadness. However, I think one thing you learn pretty quickly is that acceptance is the only path forward, and that if you don't accept early, you will only get worse. I'm really grateful that I've had many, many years of therapy prior to this, so that I at least can identify the tools to bring me back out of the grief. I would say that I'm somewhat stable now. I don't necessarily fear what might happen in the future, although grim. Have my feelings changed? Not necessarily, but they don't affect me in the same way they used to. I let them be there, however I do not attempt to push them away or let them consume me. A few days prior I would struggle to wake up in the morning, however after going through therapy I can usually wake up early. If anyone is struggling, I would recommend a book called "The Happiness Trap" it's been instrumental in getting my mind back on track.
- darkwater 2y ago
  We don't know each other, but I send you a hug anyway. Take care of you and your family.
- tasuki 2y ago
  My partner died of cancer two years ago. Our daughter was one and half years old. We're doing fine now. The year of dealing with my kid's mom's cancer was by far the worst time in my life. I quit my career to focus on taking care of the two of them, and it was still impossible to meet the needs of both of them. Hang in there!
w10-1 2y ago
I'm sorry the OP has to endure this. Grief is long. The story reminds me that busy people don't seek health care enough (not saying it would have changed anything in this case). We wait until something is so bad that we can't work. But we really don't want to wait. Roughly speaking, health care can prevent many, many things, but it's rare that it can solve something once it's so bad that it actually interferes with life or work. So the real efficacy of health care lies in prevention and early intervention. It's natural to be prone to choosing the urgent over the important. That's why you should counter by encouraging those in your circle to take care, since you would never de-prioritize the important for your loved ones. So get them to do it, and do it for them. Preventative care is mostly a matter of self-education (based on real sources), self-monitoring, and nurturing good active providers. It's not strongly limited by resources. It includes building trust within your biological family to share genetic risks and disease incidence. Knowledge and monitoring should increase your confidence and peace of mind (i.e., if you find it making you anxious, then it's existential anxiety directed at health, which should be otherwise addressed). And there may not be a "payback" because you may never know what problems you prevented; the only feedback would be relief from catching something early enough to do something about it. So it's not part of the reward system feedback loop; just do it on principle, based on the efficacy profile of health care with prevention and early detection.
sakesun 2y ago
I need to comeback and read this post regularly to remind myself of ..Life, death, and retirement.
codingdave 2y ago
> I am taking my work/life balance and turning the dial all the way to “life”. That is an awesome way to put it. We don't often hear about everyone's troubles and trauma. And seeing it written down is surely nothing compared to living through it. But there is a lot of it out there, whether we know about it or not, so when people go through it... I heartily approve of recognizing that life is more important than work, and knowing when to adjust that dial.
- abirch 2y ago
  I would gladly work for 1/2 the money to work 1/2 the hours. Like 30 actual hours per week.
  - badgersnake 2y ago
    Why are you working 60 hours a week? You’re almost certainly not getting paid for that. Unless you’re a founder or something like that you want to get that down to 40ish.
    - tasuki 2y ago
      If you're a founder, you also want to get that down to 40ish.
      - badgersnake 2y ago
        Ideally yeah, but it’s easier to justify if you’re gonna retire at 35 (of if that’s your play at least)
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- dingnuts 2y ago
  Recognizing when life is more important than work? Did you miss the part where his wife died BEFORE "tuning the dial to life"? The lesson you should get from his post is not to make that mistake. This forum is absurd. I don't need a cancer diagnosis to tell me I'm not living to complete OKRs and quarterly goals. I'm a good employee and a dedicated worker but my goal since day one has been to do the least shitty job I can land, retire as fast as possible, and get on with the good parts of life. I've had the dial as far to life as possible forever. But I'm working class, so I can't just retire when I realize the value of my life due to a medical emergency. Being able to do that is not a virtue that should be praised like this forum is doing, it is a gift that should be appreciated for the privilege that it is. I only pray I can earn enough to turn my dial all the way to life, sometime before my body gives up on me
deleted 2y ago
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trashface 2y ago
Always enjoyed this blog. The post on thermal throttling stands out as a fun one, but there were many others. Hopefully Bruce comes back to writing at some point after some recovery time.
- JKCalhoun 2y ago
  Hopefully he finds the writing is the recovery. Or hopefully he finds anything at all that helps. I lost my mother just a little over a year ago and it was (is) hard. In addition to the pain of loss though losing your spouse has to be even more disruptive to moving forward with your life.
  - brucedawson 2y ago
    Author here: I find it quite strange that my kids have lost their mother, but I have not. I still have both my parents. That's so backwards. Therefore I can't compare the grief of losing a parent to that of losing a spouse, and even when my parents do die (they are both in their eighties) it won't be the same because it will, to some extent, feel like the "right" time. Losing a spouse is definitely disruptive as well and I have had to learn a lot of new skills, but they were probably overdue anyway. That part has been challenging, but quite manageable in comparison to the loss part.
octopusRex 2y ago
Sorry for your loss. Not that saying it makes it better, but I am. Financially, you can retire. one less thing to add to the destruction.

Sadly it often takes a devastating life event to make us rethink our position and priorities in life. We work to live, not live to work, and don't you let any overachieving founder mode startup bro sell you otherwise. Sorry for the author's loss.

jajko 2y ago
Most of the time, those over-achievers from the outside lead a very unhappy, constantly unfulfilled life. I've met few of those up close (former girlfriends, close friends) and oh boy its a sad view once you see full picture. Success is never really enjoyed for long, there is always next target to chase. Close people around suffer accordingly. Then when you know what signs to look for, you see it a lot more among those 'very successful'. There is one success for me - living a good life that one is happy to have lived when looking back old/dying. Good, sometimes hard moral choices instead of less moral shortcuts. A lot of people put themselves a lot of such baggage over years and from young happy folks they are grumpy envious older ones (there are many more reasons for such of course). Whatever such success means to you, all the power to you. For most of us, work achievement are pretty low in that list, so look for success elsewhere in life.
- jebarker 2y ago
  From experience, I can say that If you were conditioned from a young age to believe that achievement and status were important in life it’s an incredibly hard instinct to let go of. You’re totally right that it’s damaging for those around you and can lead to bitterness as you age. It’s something I have to grapple with everyday and it’s exhausting.
  - parpfish 2y ago
    I think this is a curse that gets inflicted on far too many “gifted” children. While young they get lots of praise for their accomplishments and outcomes and it can drown out any intrinsic motivation to do things that make them happy.
    - jebarker 2y ago
      Exactly, and well put. I have a hard time identifying those things that really make me happy without any external influence and an even harder time comfortably sitting with the idea that objective of my life should be personal happiness.
- sokoloff 2y ago
  > Success is never really enjoyed for long, there is always next target to chase. That's a reason to carefully choose the next target, but frankly sounds awesome to me. I don't want to sit around and luxuriate recalling past successes that I'll never repeat. I'd much rather savor that for a short time and then set off for whatever is next in my short life.
- mlhpdx 2y ago
  > Most of the time, those over-achievers from the outside lead a very unhappy, constantly unfulfilled life. Common, yes, but “most” is a great exaggeration in my experience. I am surrounded by people who have or are achieving above a standard deviation from the mean (completely qualitative). They are just regular people who happen to thrive on their projects (work or personal). I don’t know why or how our experiences can be so different.
rthrth45y 2y ago
We work to survive, I would not call this living for the vast majority of us. There is no possibility of re-assessing our priorities because not working is death. Anyone that has the ability to re-asses their priorities can only do so from a place of extreme privilege that most will never have access to. Plenty people with a cancer diagnoses just die because they cant afford any other option.
- Ctyra 2y ago
  Exactly this. I have seen this a lot of the times first hand.
rectang 2y ago
I quit a gig that was great in a lot of ways — great product, great peers, great potential — primarily because of of an "overachieving founder mode startup" individual. This person was exquisitely talented and inspiring but ultimately the only way to participate in the company was to overdrive yourself to the point of misery. I stayed longer than perhaps I might have because that person was young enough to learn and change. And they definitely learned and changed over time, but not the lessons I thought they should learn. This doesn't make the direction they took objectively wrong, but eventually I and all the engineering peers I valued bailed out. It was frustrating because I remain convinced it didn't have to turn out the way that it did. But leaving was absolutely the right thing to do and I'm much happier now.
- copperx 2y ago
  > It was frustrating because I remain convinced it didn't have to turn out the way that it did. That's the curse of the optimist. You may be an optimist at heart.

ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago

That sucks, what he went through. That happens to a lot of people. As we get older, it tends to happen more often. Sounds like he made exactly the correct choice. I support him in continuing to make correct choices. This is but the first of many. I did it, myself, but not by choice. I was "frozen out" of the tech industry, after leaving a very long-term job. It absolutely infuriated me, at first, but, in the aggregate, it has turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to me. It also coincided with close family members having some health issues, so my being available has been beneficial. In my case, I really enjoy programming and tech; just not when it is being ruined by terrible managers and coworkers. I was really starting to hate what I did, and having full control of my own process, made all the difference. For one thing, it showed that I was usually right, in my personal philosophies, which were regularly disparaged by said managers. When given the chance to practice my own personal Process, things have been going very well, indeed. So I get to work for free. It's a blast. I've gotten more accomplished, in the seven years, since I was pushed out, than I did, in the thirty preceding years. In my case, I am involved in organizations that constantly surround me with people with whom I have very intimate relationships. Socializing isn't a problem; but I understand that it can be a real issue for retired people. This goes double, for ones that have the means to wall themselves off from others. I do know a number of folks that preceded me, in retirement, after long, lucrative careers. Most, were dead within five years of retirement. In my case, I feel that I'm just getting started.

mxuribe 2y ago
> ...I did it, myself, but not by choice. I was "frozen out" of the tech industry, after leaving a very long-term job...It absolutely infuriated me, at first, but, in the aggregate, it has turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to me... I would say i'm about a decade or maybe a decade and half before i can freely retire...But, already i see signs of the possibility of being frozen out of tech. Its such a fearful thing, and even moreso at a latter age! I quite enjoy technology both in isolation but also connecting proper tech to solve human problems...But so often it feels that at my $dayjobs, it always feels like we are solving the wrong problems...like chasing whatever some senior leader added into their presentation...as in, a goal for them, but not always something that is sustainable for the org, substantially helpful to people, etc. Its clear to me that while i still have the enthusiasm of my 25 year old around tech and genuinely helping people wit tech, i am so much more cynical about corporate use of tech. Nowadays, i'm at the point where i am seriously considering leaving tech, and trying to get some other job...and then only having fun with tech on the side, such as contributing to open source projects, playing on my own home lab, volunteering with orgs on digital divide, etc. I figure those sort of "hobbies" or side projects can also help me transition whenever the time comes for me to retire, of if/when i get pushed out. Now, i just have to ensure my costs are down so i can weather any salary hits. @ChrisMarshallNY Sorry that you got impacted by a freezing out...But glad to hear that you're getting started on a new phase of life for you, and hoping it keeps being positive for you! Cheers!!!

jmathai 2y ago

That sounds like a terrible year. I feel sorry for the poster. Life can come at you fast and sometimes I feel like I’m just bracing myself for such a life changing event. I too was at Google. But for 7 years, not 10. And my employment terminated in April, not because of a life event like his. But the feelings he expressed resonate with me. I stopped enjoying work and my performance tanked coinciding with a reorg and manager change. I did not miss my job which just a couple years ago I actually enjoyed. I wasn’t seriously thinking of leaving my job. Being pushed out forced me to evaluate what I do if that happened - which it did. And that evaluation is that I’m a lot happier and can reset what I want from life - it doesn’t have to be full on retirement. I have always thought about life in the long go term. What legacy do I want to leave, how do I want to spend the last years, what do I want the late years to look like with my wife. Sometimes it takes the outside world to force you into the next thing. Life does not discriminate but the best you can do is take a big step back and try to find a new lens to look at it through. There are many lenses.

deleted 2y ago
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Mistletoe 2y ago

I retired early this year. My advice to anyone seeking to do so is think clearly about it. Because once you do it, you can never go back to that world. The world of waking up early, having a boss tell you what to do, going to meetings that mean absolutely nothing, running on that hamster wheel, seems so trite and meaningless afterwards. That's a good thing, but you can never go back. Then it becomes time to concentrate on what life is really about- your health, your relationships, having fun and discovering what life is like without that tether on your ankle. Everyone isn't cut out for that, some need that hamster wheel. The best people are cut out for it. :)

p1esk 2y ago
Sounds like you had a shitty job. Mine is great, I’d do it for free if I didn’t need the money.
- deanmoriarty 2y ago
  Could you share more details about your job, if you don’t mind? I posted in a comment in this thread, but I changed 3 jobs in 4 years (a mix of FAANG and startups) and each one has been more miserable than the previous, so I can definitely relate with the previous poster. So I am wondering what kind of “normal job” people have that is so good that they’d do it for free.
  - tasuki 2y ago
    Not OP. Just optimize for happiness instead of money. I earn ten times less now than I used to. I work half the time and am twice as happy. (I work for a small local business in Eastern Europe, ten(ish) people, we don't earn much, but get a lot of freedom and the atmosphere at work is very nice)
    - deanmoriarty 2y ago
      What if you literally can’t think of a work position that would make you happy? Just talking out loud and not expecting an answer from you, but that’s just what was going on in my head while reading your comment. Perhaps I am too burned out, but I couldn’t imagine feeling happy working with a team, an manager and hard problems. Probably my “happy” job would consist in full agency with no managers, no peers to veto or judge or comment or compete on/with my work, extremely low intellectual requirements, part-time time commitment at best, and wages good enough to still make it objectively worth my time compared to my portfolio (shared a lot more context in another comment on this thread). I understand all this might be a tad unrealistic, so just venting.

djaychela 2y ago

Just had a cancer diagnosis (bile duct, I'm 53). Surgery in a months time will hopefully see me healthy again after it, but I've already decided to make changes even if it has spread and I only have a much shorter time to live. I always thought I'd contemplated life and death before this (I am not religious), but having had several weeks of genuinely not knowing if I only had a week to live, I think you only really do this fully in that kind of situation. Even if I am cured, my life and attitude will never be the same again.

chrisweekly 2y ago
Welcome to the club nobody wants to join. I had a similar experience 12 years ago. Pls email (address in bio) if I can be of any assistance (e.g. book recs). In any case, good luck w/ your surgery!
- unshavedyak 2y ago
  It’s funny, I’ve always just been kinda waiting for death. Probably need meds but never felt like changing “who I am”. I’m curious to see what happens to me when that cancer day comes for someone so apathetic to the whole life experience.
ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
Back in ‘96, I had a brain tumor, operation, and learning to walk and chew gum again. Kind of a bummer. At the time, I wasn’t ready to retire, but if it had happened 20 years later, it probably would have resulted in my retirement.
Dalewyn 2y ago
My mother suddenly passed from cancer last year at 68, that harrowing experience violently reshifted a lot of my life philosophies. This was perhaps exacerbated by both my grandparents on mom's side also passing just a couple years prior back to back. Among other things violently reshifted: * Time is finite, grows more valuable as I age, and I do not have as much as I think I do. It is imperative I live now, not tomorrow. * Time is money and money is time. Money in hand can be spent for others' time so I don't have to spend mine, and money can be replenished while my time cannot be. Money can also be borrowed, but I cannot borrow more time. It is imperative I live now, not tomorrow. * Take nothing for granted. Social Security being the prime example; my mother waited until 65 to start taking it and so she barely enjoyed only 3 years of it. I refuse to repeat that, I am taking Social Security at 62 ASAP and screw anyone trying to tell me otherwise for any reason. It is imperative I live now, not tomorrow. * People here today might not be here tomorrow, for any or no reason. The experience of spending time with them can only be had today. It is imperative I live now, not tomorrow. * Small problems are not worth the time of day, it is fine to resolve them in the quickest and easiest way possible. It is imperative I live now, not tomorrow. * Most of the goings-on in the world will come and go time and time again. If something comes up, it too shall pass and come up again in due time to pass again. It is imperative I live now, not tomorrow. * When I'm finally gone, I'm gone. It is not worth the time of day today to care about what happens after, I will be dead and literally can't care or interject. It is imperative I live now, not tomorrow.

d2049 2y ago

This is the person who was in the news a few years ago for commuting to Google campus using 19 different methods in 19 days https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZWftDrwY2U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZWftDrwY2U

fullshark 2y ago

The premise that your life should be work until 65 and then you can finally do what you want is so depressing to me. I have goals beyond just doing what I want, but it all just seems like an endless rat race i can never win as I chase money/prestige in order to accomplish those goals or those things serve as a nice but ultimately meaningless byproduct of accomplishing those goals while my life slips away.

zeroonetwothree 2y ago
I actually enjoy my job (well, mostly anyway). I would probably do it for free tbh (except for some of the BS parts)
- fullshark 2y ago
  At this point I think most jobs have good days and bad days and there's some enjoyment/pride in being productive and valued in a job environment. I'm not full r/antiwork or anything but when you take a 10k foot view and realize almost no one on their death bed wishes they had spent more time working / on their computer it's hard to not feel like it's all a big miscalculation on our parts.
  - jkarneges 2y ago
    > almost no one on their death bed wishes they had spent more time working / on their computer And old age isn’t needed to figure this out. Even middle age will do. When I reflect on my life, I almost never think about past work. (Yet, I remain mostly working.)
  - zemvpferreira 2y ago
    On my deathbed I probably won't wish I had spent more time at the gym either, but that doesn't mean the gym is not good for me to engage with more often now. I've retired early and gone back to work voluntarily. I find the first 10 to 30 hours per week are good for me, and I genuinely enjoy employing people and working on projects with them. Not every week is exhilarating. Lots of weeks are dogshit and make me feel like going back to 100% life again. But over time, I feel more fulfilled when I try to contribute through work. I will surely reconsider that position when I become the Buddha, but likely not sooner if I keep my health and stay childless. (do go part-time as soon as you can, it's great)

robocat 2y ago

The main issue with turning the dial to "life" early is that your peer group usually hasn't. My peers spend most of their time on work: sometimes to pay the bills, sometimes for status laddering, sometimes for reasons I don't get. I have found friends that are less focused on work - sometimes because they have more control over their hours and sometimes because they are past retirement age and sometimes because they don't work for other reasons. I'm looking forward to the next decade+ as maybe more of my peer group friends will choose (or be able to choose) to do less work hours/days.

deanmoriarty 2y ago

First of all, truly sorry to the author for what happened to them, it is devastating, and something that indeed will shake your world and priorities. Any advice for people who are not finding the courage to quit, despite probably having the financial means to do so? I came from very humble origins and moved to Silicon Valley from another country and have a gained a fairly solid financial situation, by having accumulated $5.5M liquid with expenses of around $50k (no kids, no mortgage, just a loving girlfriend). I am so unhappy with work. I have changed 3 employers over the past 4 years and I’ve been more and more depressed with each transition. I spend my life in a state of immense disappointment about having to work. I am not even passionate about software anymore, so it’s not only the corporate madness (meetings, offices, coworkers, bosses, pressure to perform, code reviewers, etc). My weekends are filled with anxiety about Mondays. I haven’t quit yet because everyone is telling me not to: my parents, still living in another country, are telling me to milk it until I am 45 (38 now), the few close friends I have are telling me not to squander the opportunity to earn until I get to $10-$15M due to real estate/healthcare/lifestyle costs going up (especially if I revisit the decision not to have kids, which I don’t think I will), and even financial communities like bogleheads/fire subs are telling me it’s not time yet and that I need to accumulate more given my privileged position. I’ve tried a couple therapist but it didn’t work for me. I also do not have anything to retire to: no particular passions, or hobbies. I just dream of spending a life of slow breakfasts, hiking on Monday mornings to celebrate a new week, reading books, slow traveling, and spending more time close to my aging parents.

zeroonetwothree 2y ago
This sounds like classic burnout. You just need to take a break from work, try 3 months or so.
- parpfish 2y ago
  Yeah, grandparent post should just take a year long sabbatical and come back when they’re feeling it.
- deanmoriarty 2y ago
  What is the reason to suggest that a break from work, as opposed to a retirement (more similar to the author’s path), is more appropriate for my situation? Is it a concern about financials/age? After reading several people describing their experience (even in this thread) as “once you taste the freedom of not working, you will never be able to go back”, I can totally identify myself in that, so I like to think that the decision of “just take a 3 months break” would become a much more serious one.

cod1r 2y ago

Reading or seeing things like this on the internet also makes me reflect on my life and think about what my priorities should be, and I'm not really in a financial position where I can just retire and turn the dial all to way to "life" but the best thing I can learn from this is to appreciate the little things in life. Like living in a first world country, having food to eat, hot showers, a bed, good health, etc.

kubb 2y ago

If there's a bilionare here willing to give me a basic income until I pass, let me know. You could even give me a condition like doing social or creative work. The corporate world is tiring, and time flies by.

hm-nah 2y ago
Careful what you wish for. There are likely billionaires considering this very thing as a method of dealing with “the AI impact”. They will define what “…doing social or creative work…” entails, likely contractually, and then you’re right back where you started. I think, we need to rethink, where this basic income originates. - Philanthropic individual billionaires? - Mythical creatures. - Philanthropic trillionaires (aka: large govts or corps)? - Mythical creatures. - Collective individuals (aka: you and me)? - Now you’re on to something. Unfortunately, organizing humans is right up there with trench digging in terms of easy work.

oldpersonintx 2y ago

happy he is enjoying retirement. I hope to join his ranks shortly but for most of the people you work with in tech, retirement will just be a fantasy it is common for my coworkers to be forever-renters now, even those in their late forties and fifties...I don't see how you can stop working if you have to pay increasing rents over time its crazy how having kids, owning a home, and retiring all became privilege flexes

tokioyoyo 2y ago

I’m very sorry to hear that. It’s always sad to read posts like this one, as the time goes by, it hits me how I’ll relate to it sooner or later. Apologies for rambling below — I’m much younger (late 20s), don’t have too many worries in life as my parents, albeit older, still alive, my siblings are fine, friends are okay, don’t have that many financial troubles either at this point. That being said, a couple of years ago I got a text about a high school friend of mine passing away after years of fighting cancer. It was one of the weirdest emotions I’ve ever felt in my life, and I couldn’t (still can’t) understand why. I’ve seen my grandparents passing away in front of me, I’ve been to funerals, yet this one hit like a brick. At that point, it would’ve been about 10 years since I’ve talked to that friend of mine, maybe just exchanging some happy birthday messages from time to time. But we were fairly close in middle school, and later in high school as well, just the life drifted us apart, living in different cities and etc. Yet I remember the moment I read the text how he passed away. I remember being on a plane, and my entire mind being completely clouded for a week afterwards. It’s like a sudden realization of how life can be very short for some of us, and you can lose people out of nowhere. I understand I’ve been lucky enough to never experience it until that point of my life, but it really sucked. And it just sucks knowing how it’ll happen more and more, or might even happen to me. Anyways, it’s been about 2 years now, and I’ve lost all of my ambitions wrt my career. Took about 6 months off as well, which made me realize how small and fun the world is. I know for a fact I won’t be able to enjoy it as much in 30 years. But unfortunately I’m not at the point where I can do whatever I want yet. Until then, every work day is just a repeat of things I don’t care about, followed by 10-20km walks to feel something. I wish it wasn’t the case, because I consider myself slightly above average in terms of skills and getting things done. Every morning I wake up thinking if I found just one thing that I could throw my life or at least a couple years at, I would do a decent job. But it’s hard to convince myself that anything matters. Then I remember how people that I hold dear to myself might be gone as well, and it becomes another day of spiralling. Anyways, sorry for Sunday morning trauma dumping, but reading the OP’s story made me reflect on myself for a minute. Thank you.

darkwater 2y ago
You are young and it's good you are already questioning yourself and thinking about these things. It's usually a mid-life process :) Take the good bit about it, maybe: try to focus on living and not working, even if having a job that you like is definitely part of a good life.

shane_kerns 2y ago

I have a 10 year old daughter with a very rare genetic condition. She has no one to care for her if I pass away. She can't yet talk and operates at a 2year old level, autism is just one of the side effects of this genetic condition. She has learning challenges as well, can't read, write or understand very well. I need to leave behind substantial assets or money for her for her long term care. I would love to retire early too but I don't seem to have that luxury because if I do, I don't know what I will leave behind for my daughter's care. I've switched several jobs over the past decade only to find that there is nothing fulfilling from a job perspective. Nothing that adds value to other people's lives or even to my own, aside from a paycheck to pay for my own funeral and my daughter's future care. When the time comes I don't know how my daughter would manage my funeral and which bad people will try to take away everything that I leave behind for her for her care. I can't afford to give away 30% of my worth to law firms that will allegedly guarantee my daughter will be safe from some money hungry assisted living centers or other such nasty organizations and opening a special needs trust fund is equally expensive. I think I'll work my whole life or whatever is left of it, I'm 43 and also work in tech and this is a dying industry with AI taking up so many jobs like automation did in the automotive industry.So I'm not sure how many more good years I'll be able to work for, so I'm just going to put my head down and work humbly while I can.

farts_mckensy 2y ago
That's so difficult, man. I'm sorry. It shouldn't be this way.
nine_zeros 2y ago
I can’t begin to imagine the weight of your story, and I know there are no perfect words to ease the pain of living this life. Please know that my thoughts are with you during this. I can only imagine the depth of your concern for your daughter’s future, and I wish there were more I could offer. For now, please accept my deepest sympathy and a warm, virtual embrace.
rexpop 2y ago
[flagged]

vid 2y ago

I'm contemplating retirement. I find myself ostensibly in a workplace of high personal relevance, but it's going in the wrong direction, largely I think due to layers of disconnected professionalization that are supposed to have the answers, but the result is just a race to the bottom. I'd like to have more cash before retiring, but it'd be ok with a bit of restraint. It's mostly up to finding a good lifestyle. Thing is, I still enjoy 'tech;' the activity of programming, writing tests, designing things (even building workstations), constant learning, and the larger potential it brings to more than technical people, tied in with the sometimes distant idea that a more participatory world can be fairer and more peaceful. I wonder if an engaging hobby will appear that combines elements of free software, wikipedia, non-dominating personal perspective, and problem solving. People like solving puzzles, maybe we can help solve other people's puzzles too. I'm surprised it hasn't happened so far, but contributory culture has been abducted so many times, and the intentionally free/open world hasn't been very good at course correction. Which isn't surprising considering other powerful interests, including professionalization and the way "startups" took over with their compartmentalize and cash-out energy, the tech giants, and now of course AI (which could be part of a helpful system). "Sensemaking" was a thing for a while, but it's not really talked about anymore.

anonzzzies 2y ago

I sold my first company at 25 (25 years ago almost to the day now) and that was retirement money and then some (I cannot spend the yearly interest let's say), but i've never been interested in retiring. I like doing what I do and can't see myself ever quitting; if I do, I probably will be writing 8 bit shmups for 80s systems. Aka; building things.

intelVISA 2y ago
Freedom to work on your own projects is a form of retirement imo. Work is only 'work' because you're stuck building crapware for The Man. I'm jealous ofc :) gz

ryandrake 2y ago

Probably unpopular opinion here, but I hope OP feels blessed that he can retire to take care of himself and dial up his life after such a terrible event. Not all of us have that option. For most people, if someone in our family god forbid suddenly died, we would not be able to just take a month here to grieve, then another month there, then 3 more months, then just decide to retire. That is a rare privilege. The rest of us have to get right back to the grind while doing the terrible job of picking up the pieces during the evenings and weekends. I really envy people who lucked out in tech and can simply decide to retire like this. I guess I would say to the author (and others here in the comment section who somehow have $5M liquid saved up): "Turn your work/life dial over to life and move on as you are planning, but please be grateful and thankful that you ended up with such outlier financial results that allow you to do so." I think it's good for people who have these kinds of options to take a step back, reflect, and recognize how lucky they are. Like most, I know I will probably be having to work until something disables me and prevents me from working, regardless of what tragedies life decides to throw at me.

markvdb 2y ago
Rare is the western world tech worker without kids or debilitating illness who can not easily retire early.
- sokoloff 2y ago
  The Shockingly Simple Math Behind Early Retirement: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/ https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-si...
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    As long as you are just expecting math and not a generalizable strategy for retirement. The "simple math" behind Mr. Money Mustache is: Have no mortgage, multiple properties providing income, a blog providing income (including making recommendations of financial services that provide him affiliate income), and have nothing go wrong with your life financially or health-wise... and then you can retire with no[1] income! OK I'll get right on that... Similar formula behind other get-wealthy motivational writers: Sell lots of books to people who gobble up get-wealthy motivational books, and collect royalties for life. MMM is Personal Finance Porn: A story of one guy's very lucky and privileged life path, not generalizable to everyone else's situation even though it's sold as that. [1] using a very flexible definition of "no"

_wire_ 2y ago

If you've never contemplated the value of your life, an encounter with death awakens novel feelings and thoughts, and may lead to changes in meaning. But changes can't escape your circumstances, which you must suffer nonetheless. Make any change in priorities and you're still as beholden to your life's vicissitudes. It's common with death to find sudden compassion for self and others, and a compassionate disposition may lead to remarkable changes of feelings about life and attenuate obsessive responses. This is not necessarily good. All thinking about death misapprehends the finality of death for thought. You can learn do what you want, but you can't conserve time. Life can't be optimized. Moreover, an efficient world would have prevented your existence in the first place. But there are trails left by others to follow. The time to make things right for yourself and others is always here and now. In any situation, there's a chance things can improve because you're here. And if you can't make things right here and now, maybe you can elsewhere later. Going for treatment? Appreciate the work of those treating you. Not going for treatment? Appreciate being of service to others. Don't understand the importance of your work? You have something to work on. Others don't understand where you're coming from? Be on lookout for others who need attention. Pass on enjoyment. —— Bob Dylan: The man in me will do nearly any task And as for compensation, there's a little he would ask It take a woman like you To get through to the man in me Storm clouds are raging all around my door I think to myself I might not take it any more Take a woman like your kind To find the man in me But, oh, what a wonderful feeling Just to know that you are near It sets my a heart a-reeling From my toes up to my ears The man in me will hide sometimes to keep from bein' seen But that's just because he doesn't wanna turn into some machine It take a woman like you To get through to the man in me

vvanders 2y ago

Fuck. I had Bruce as a teacher in one of our early CS classes at college, he showed us all sorts of black-magic performance tricks (at least as it appeared to us at the time) and that curiosity in wanting to understand the how/why played a large part in where I am today. I don't know if it's any consolation but I know he had an outsized impact on a number of us back then.

brucedawson 2y ago
Thanks. It's not really a consolation, but it does give me some happiness.

imroot 2y ago

About six years ago, my seven year old son passed away: he had liver cancer at a really young age, had a full liver transplant at six months, and lost all hearing as a side effect of the anti-rejection medications. It was a sudden turn -- he was participating in his school's holiday program on a Friday (spending the rest of the afternoon with me at work on his iPad because neither mom or the babysitter could pick him up) and had passed on a Wednesday. My job at the time gave me three days off before calling to ask me if I could come back to work, with my boss and HR on the line telling me that they also 'gave me the weekend' (since I was on-call when it happened). When I said that I needed more time away in order to deal with it, they fired me, then begged me to come back as a contractor a few months later. I was so upset over the things that happened that I turned them down -- it wasn't what I wanted to do and it wasn't how I wanted to be treated: I'm much more selective about where I'm working at these days.

didgeoridoo 2y ago
Good Lord. I hope your manager took an extremely long look in the mirror after that phone call. When my 5 month old daughter got her heart transplant, my manager at Salesforce essentially said, "be with your family, call us when things settle down." I'd only been there for 3 months. I took 3 weeks to get her home from the hospital, set up our new routine, and mentally reset. Didn't get a single work-related Slack, text, or call during that time. Might have just been a great manager, but I think the overall culture was a big factor too. Not sure if that's ever really something you can pick up on during the hiring process, though.
- imroot 2y ago
  My manager was just following orders to protect his job: he has kids and a wife at home and I don’t blame him, but, he’s one of the few bosses that I don’t keep in communication with. I hope your daughter is doing better and is adapting to a normal life post-transplant.
- brucedawson 2y ago
  My employer (Google) gave me four weeks of grief leave. That plus four weeks of cobbled-together vacation and unpaid time off was invaluable for giving me the time to deal with logistics and bureaucracy and then have some healing time. I am sure that it is difficult for smaller or less profitable companies to "do the right thing" even if they want to

dottjt 2y ago

I found out a week ago that my partner has stage 4 sarcoma. The prognosis is poor. It's been difficult because we have a 1 year old toddler, so naturally we can't go out and do something big without it affecting them. Furthermore, the cancer has inhibited her ability to move. At first it was complete shock. The next few days were complete confusion and sadness. However, I think one thing you learn pretty quickly is that acceptance is the only path forward, and that if you don't accept early, you will only get worse. I'm really grateful that I've had many, many years of therapy prior to this, so that I at least can identify the tools to bring me back out of the grief. I would say that I'm somewhat stable now. I don't necessarily fear what might happen in the future, although grim. Have my feelings changed? Not necessarily, but they don't affect me in the same way they used to. I let them be there, however I do not attempt to push them away or let them consume me. A few days prior I would struggle to wake up in the morning, however after going through therapy I can usually wake up early. If anyone is struggling, I would recommend a book called "The Happiness Trap" it's been instrumental in getting my mind back on track.

darkwater 2y ago
We don't know each other, but I send you a hug anyway. Take care of you and your family.
tasuki 2y ago
My partner died of cancer two years ago. Our daughter was one and half years old. We're doing fine now. The year of dealing with my kid's mom's cancer was by far the worst time in my life. I quit my career to focus on taking care of the two of them, and it was still impossible to meet the needs of both of them. Hang in there!

w10-1 2y ago

I'm sorry the OP has to endure this. Grief is long. The story reminds me that busy people don't seek health care enough (not saying it would have changed anything in this case). We wait until something is so bad that we can't work. But we really don't want to wait. Roughly speaking, health care can prevent many, many things, but it's rare that it can solve something once it's so bad that it actually interferes with life or work. So the real efficacy of health care lies in prevention and early intervention. It's natural to be prone to choosing the urgent over the important. That's why you should counter by encouraging those in your circle to take care, since you would never de-prioritize the important for your loved ones. So get them to do it, and do it for them. Preventative care is mostly a matter of self-education (based on real sources), self-monitoring, and nurturing good active providers. It's not strongly limited by resources. It includes building trust within your biological family to share genetic risks and disease incidence. Knowledge and monitoring should increase your confidence and peace of mind (i.e., if you find it making you anxious, then it's existential anxiety directed at health, which should be otherwise addressed). And there may not be a "payback" because you may never know what problems you prevented; the only feedback would be relief from catching something early enough to do something about it. So it's not part of the reward system feedback loop; just do it on principle, based on the efficacy profile of health care with prevention and early detection.

sakesun 2y ago

I need to comeback and read this post regularly to remind myself of ..Life, death, and retirement.

codingdave 2y ago

> I am taking my work/life balance and turning the dial all the way to “life”. That is an awesome way to put it. We don't often hear about everyone's troubles and trauma. And seeing it written down is surely nothing compared to living through it. But there is a lot of it out there, whether we know about it or not, so when people go through it... I heartily approve of recognizing that life is more important than work, and knowing when to adjust that dial.

abirch 2y ago
I would gladly work for 1/2 the money to work 1/2 the hours. Like 30 actual hours per week.
- badgersnake 2y ago
  Why are you working 60 hours a week? You’re almost certainly not getting paid for that. Unless you’re a founder or something like that you want to get that down to 40ish.
  - tasuki 2y ago
    If you're a founder, you also want to get that down to 40ish.
    - badgersnake 2y ago
      Ideally yeah, but it’s easier to justify if you’re gonna retire at 35 (of if that’s your play at least)
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dingnuts 2y ago
Recognizing when life is more important than work? Did you miss the part where his wife died BEFORE "tuning the dial to life"? The lesson you should get from his post is not to make that mistake. This forum is absurd. I don't need a cancer diagnosis to tell me I'm not living to complete OKRs and quarterly goals. I'm a good employee and a dedicated worker but my goal since day one has been to do the least shitty job I can land, retire as fast as possible, and get on with the good parts of life. I've had the dial as far to life as possible forever. But I'm working class, so I can't just retire when I realize the value of my life due to a medical emergency. Being able to do that is not a virtue that should be praised like this forum is doing, it is a gift that should be appreciated for the privilege that it is. I only pray I can earn enough to turn my dial all the way to life, sometime before my body gives up on me

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trashface 2y ago

Always enjoyed this blog. The post on thermal throttling stands out as a fun one, but there were many others. Hopefully Bruce comes back to writing at some point after some recovery time.

JKCalhoun 2y ago
Hopefully he finds the writing is the recovery. Or hopefully he finds anything at all that helps. I lost my mother just a little over a year ago and it was (is) hard. In addition to the pain of loss though losing your spouse has to be even more disruptive to moving forward with your life.
- brucedawson 2y ago
  Author here: I find it quite strange that my kids have lost their mother, but I have not. I still have both my parents. That's so backwards. Therefore I can't compare the grief of losing a parent to that of losing a spouse, and even when my parents do die (they are both in their eighties) it won't be the same because it will, to some extent, feel like the "right" time. Losing a spouse is definitely disruptive as well and I have had to learn a lot of new skills, but they were probably overdue anyway. That part has been challenging, but quite manageable in comparison to the loss part.

octopusRex 2y ago

Sorry for your loss. Not that saying it makes it better, but I am. Financially, you can retire. one less thing to add to the destruction.