24 ms·

A $1k Wheelchair

965 points by bo0tzz 2y ago

jmyeet 2y ago
So I follow some disability activists and it's kinda depressing just how hostile society is and people are to people with disabilities. And this crops up everywhere. So for wheelchairs, for example, airlines routinely damage or destroy or lose wheelchairs, like 1000+ a month [1]. You need to be aware that wheelchairs typically need to be customized for the user. You typically can't just buy a wheelchair on Amazon and you're good to go. Using a replacement wheelchair can represent a significant safety risk. Only now is the DoT starting to take action to curb this [2]. But what other group of people would such reckless disregard and gross negligence be tolerated for? We just had Hurricane Helene wreak havoc through Appalachia. Usually in these situations people on the outside will criticize those who didn't evacuate. This happened in Katrina too. But you know who often can't evacuate? Disabled people. Look at our response to Covid. The powers-that-be wanted everyone to get back to work and be busy worker bees that could once again produce value that would be exploited. So isolation restrictions were loosened. We capitulated to the irrational and completely self-centered whims of antivaxxers. There was a war on mask mandates. This went so far in some places as to literally ban masks [3]. This is all despite some people being immunocompromised and Covid never going away. We're essentially decided those people can just die. But beyond them, you know what else Covid was? A mass disabling event. I'm talking about long Covid. This affects probably millions of people. These once healthy people are going to learn the hard way what the wanton disregard for disabled people looks like. Anyway, I applaud efforts like cheaper and faster to produce wheelchairs. They won't suit everyone but we shouldn't tolerate a situation where it might take months for someone to get a wheelchair, But can we stop destroying wheelchairs too? [1]: https://blurredbylines.com/articles/broken-wheelchairs-airlines-disabilities-advocate-engracia-figueroa/ https://blurredbylines.com/articles/broken-wheelchairs-airli... [2]: https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234708784/airlines-wheelchairs-damaged-disabilities-transportation-department https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234708784/airlines-wheelchai... [3]: https://abcnews.go.com/US/wearing-masks-public-now-illegal-nassau-county-new/story?id=112652433 https://abcnews.go.com/US/wearing-masks-public-now-illegal-n...
- codedokode 2y ago
  By chance, don't you know why we cannot have electric wheelchair for everyone who needs it? Manual wheelchair seems to be not very convenient and to require lot of effort to use it.
  - roywiggins 2y ago
    we barely supply good manual wheelchairs to everyone who needs them, the article talks about why not.
  - srockets 2y ago
    Motorized wheelchairs are not a good fit for everyone. They are much bigger, heavier, harder to transport (you need a van), and even with a clutch to allow emergency non-motorized use, because of their design and weight, they can't be really used without a motor, so you're f*ked if the battery runs out. They're good for some uses, for some folks, but are not a solution for all.
    - tpmoney 2y ago
      Newer battery tech is helping improve the “compactness” of motorized chairs. We have a “fold and go” (https://www.foldandgowheelchairs.com/ https://www.foldandgowheelchairs.com/) which can fit in a car trunk (though still want a full size sedan or bigger if you plan on putting anything else in there) and at 60lbs is only about 50% heavier than some of the heavy “standard” chairs out there. Still not something you’re going to move well on your own without an able bodied assistant or some specialized equipment, but compared to older motorized chairs it’s a huge improvement
tocs3 2y ago
It would be nice to see a little more of this in the world. Thank you Cambry and Zack Nelson.
loloquwowndueo 2y ago
I just checked online and wheelchairs here (Canada) can be had for about US $500. What am I missing in this $1K “affordable” wheelchair idea?
- flyrain 2y ago
  Most of them are under $200 in Amazon
  - skylurk 2y ago
    Would you buy an under-$200 bike off of Amazon? Especially one you spent all day on?
    - tredre3 2y ago
      I don't know about Amazon, but $200 is the price of a reasonable entry-level bike in any large surface store so yes? I know this is HN and people will likely look down on anyone riding a <$2000 bike, but come on.
      - pjdesno 2y ago
        I ride a lot, and am happy to ride cheap bikes, but I probably wouldn't ride a $200 Amazon or Walmart bike for rides longer than 30-40 miles without swapping the saddle, which would add anywhere from $40 to $150.
      - ajford 2y ago
        The question was would you spend that on a device you spend 8+hrs in each day, which is something people often ignore. This is a device you _live_ in. This is someone's mobility and independence you're talking about. Not a "I spend 30 minutes to an hour a day riding", or a "I commute to work on this" but instead "I use this to enjoy life".
      - kelnos 2y ago
        Most people don't ride their bike every single day, sometimes for 8-12 hours per day. If you did, you probably wouldn't be particularly happy with a $200 bike.
jrexilius 2y ago
This pretty much embodies why I love hacker engineering. Solving hard problems by itself is fun, making peoples lives better in the process makes it really worthwhile.
flimflamm 2y ago
[flagged]
- rtkwe 2y ago
  Shipping makes them pretty consistently $116ish/piece until you hit negotiated shipping numbers. They're also not the kind of wheelchair people are looking for if they're self mobile which is the kind of chair the article is reporting on. Those are made lighter and more resilient to stand up to being used by one person out in the world rolling themselves around.
- fodkodrasz 2y ago
  These are not the same class of products. The alibaba ones are almost like disposable lower quality solutions, have textile backs, and are foldable, etc. which also have their places and uses eg. after disasters, mass depoyment, handout at hospitals as temporary solutions. The product in the linked article is clearly a higher quality item intended for longer term use by a single person. 1k$ is the cost of a decent office work-chair from any well-established low-to-medium volume vendor, as context. For a small shop like this it is an okay price, abeit the sum being a lot for many especialy in a new situation where they are forced to a wheelchair. Mass production could probably drive it down a lot, but you need volume for that. ps: with volume you can also better amortize the engineering costs, which can be significant even for stuff looking simple and easy to do for those who did not do it yet... or did (even significant, core) parts of the product development in a large established firm. I also started a product development for simple looking stuff that turned out to be a lot lot more work when not being done only as a hack/PoC, but developed to a product. I abandoned the product before going for the official certifications (FCC, CE, etc.). For medical equipment they probably also need to meet regulations.
- sekai 2y ago
  > 1k$ is pretty steep. It's not if you don't want to sacrifice quality, USA made is also a bonus. Kudos to JerryRigEverything.
- Etheryte 2y ago
  This is like saying a $30 display off Aliexpress is better than a $1000 display from a high quality brand. The only metric it will be better on will be the price, everything else will be a ridiculous comparison.
SirFatty 2y ago
before clicking the link, I thought it would be something along the lines of a Dean Kamen iBOT chair. Seems like a lot of money for a basic wheelchair.
- edm0nd 2y ago
  These aren't basic wheelchairs like at the hospital imo. They are the wheelchairs that someone is going to spend their entire day/life in and use for mobility. Huge difference I think. It's also heavily customizable https://notawheelchair.com/pages/configurator https://notawheelchair.com/pages/configurator
- m463 2y ago
  hmm... looks like the ibot is available? $25-30k https://newmobility.com/the-ibot-is-back/ https://newmobility.com/the-ibot-is-back/ also I looked and a walmart wheelchair is $149. Wonder why it sucks.
kkfx 2y ago
Ehm... Seeing the product... A right price could be more 300$, and only because not made in China, than 1000... If mass produced could be more 150$...
- sethrd_ 2y ago
  You should do some research into wheelchairs and the differences in designs, materials, and life times to better understand why the $1000 price tag on what the company is offering is actually incredible. This is for someone who has a spinal cord injury and has to be in a chair fulltime, not those hospital style chairs you are probably thinking of.
  - kkfx 2y ago
    Well, materials seems to be very common, and indeed even if they are precious alloys to be lighter it's still a very high price. Research have to be payed of course, but again you can sell a product, no more than that. I've heard many time about "special design", "this price is really right" and so on, all the time it was wrong. Oh, that does not means it's a bad product, it's simply overpriced and the price might even be right seen their expenses and resources, but it's still too much for a market who offer other very similar product at a much little price. An idea alone does not suffice.
    - sethrd_ 2y ago
      I've mentioned in other comments the difference between "hospital" style wheelchairs and full time use wheelchairs used by people with spinal cord injuries or other mobility issues. Full time wheelchairs are 1/3 or more lighter than the hospital style, more rigid which makes pushing more efficient, more comfortable, and easier to maneuver. You cannot compare these wheelchairs to what you might sit in at the emergency room, as they are for different use cases and fill different needs. These wheelchairs aren't for "oh I broke my leg and have to use a wheelcahir for a few months". These are for "I will be spending 14+ hours a day in this chair." Please do some research about rigid frame wheelchairs before saying you don't see how this is a big deal. Companies like TiLite and Quickie START at almost double this price point for similar products.
fotta 2y ago
Custom fit lightweight wheelchairs are expensive. My Ti-Lite (one of the most popular lightweight chair brands) Aero Z starts at $3k and goes up quickly with wheels and backrest and casters and various other options that I need for sitting 16 hours a day without creating more problems. Insurance covers this for me every 5 years, but of course that's not a luxury every one has. Most plans don't cover DME 100%. What Zack and Cambry are doing is great. (edit) I’d like to add that I think part of being able to drive costs down is that they’re not offering these via insurance so they sidestep the need for FDA approval to market it as a medical device (hence the company name), CMS approval and HCPCS coding and all the regulatory costs that come with that. Now don't get me started on power wheelchair cost...
- gibrown 2y ago
  Ya, I was expecting to see something not very impressive at that link, but was pleasantly surprised. My chair is about $7k and while this one doesn't look like it would work for me, it is definitely much better than the cheap hospital chairs.
  - max-ibel 2y ago
    Are the hospital chairs cheap? Genuinely asking...
    - roywiggins 2y ago
      Amazon appears to offer such chairs for like $200? They're probably crap though.
      - paledot 2y ago
        They're crap. And that's what you find at hospitals and airports.
  - svpk 2y ago
    If you don’t mind sharing, what aspects of it make it seem like it wouldn’t work for you?
sandworm101 2y ago
>> It’s mesmerizing to watch. When the laser is done cutting, sometimes the leftover material just falls out, but sometimes it stays in place. Please be very careful when watching an industrial laser, particularly one cutting shiny metal. I would honestly support any reg that puts hard barriers between eyeballs and running laser equipment. Invest in a good camera and watch the show on a screen.
- rtkwe 2y ago
  It is enclosed. They show a picture later and there's a green safety window to view the work piece in the machine, that material will be designed to block whatever wavelength of light the laser is using (most likely IR, and what do you know safety glasses for the IR bands are mostly green).
  - sandworm101 2y ago
    No. Such materials are designed to let through all but the narrow wavelengths expected of the laser. And some IR "shields" actually reflect IR light rather than absorb it. A proper laser shield should not be engineered to do the minimum necessary. Metal works. Wood works. Even blackout curtains bought at walmart can work.
    - rtkwe 2y ago
      Properly rated safety shields can absolutely be transparent and properly block the necessary wavelengths. The color comes from the wavelengths they're blocking. Weird stance to take that the entire industry is wrong about laser safety. Lasers emit a known frequency unless they're extremely expensive and designed to create broad spectrums, it's only with cheap consumer units you'll see IR diodes being poorly upconverted to a different color with IR leakage. These cutters use CO2 or fiber lasers and IR is the desired output..
Havoc 2y ago
For context - he has a ~9m sub youtube channel on phones that must be banking it. This is a side project that appears to be grown out of frustration of disabled wife & seeing the shitshow that wheelchair market is. Seems 10/10 wholesome to have this disrupted by someone that cares
- TrainedMonkey 2y ago
  > This is a side project that appears to be grown out of frustration of disabled wife & seeing the shitshow that wheelchair market is While it is absolutely true that he cares, I think you are selling his long term plans short. The primary growth factor for the channel was reviewing phones with the repairability / endurance focus, but somewhat recently he expanded to topics such as plugging abandoned oil wells which are leaking methane and wheelchair mobility issues. From what I understand he has a couple similar things in the pipeline.
  - 123pie123 2y ago
    i think he's a better than average presenter for a youtube channel. I did like his huge bunker videos my biggest annoyance is his plugging or advertising stuff too obviously
    - jeanlucas 2y ago
      Man has to pay bills
      - flutas 2y ago
        More like tithe it all to the LDS.
        bulletsvshumans 2y ago
        I wouldn’t expect more than 10%
    - kube-system 2y ago
rtkwe 2y ago
It's odd seeing the number of dismissive comments missing that there are whole categories of wheelchairs for different purposes. It's like asking why XPSs exist when there are Chromebooks, something most people commenting here would immediately realize as a silly question because they suit different needs and functions but the idea doesn't come up because it's an unfamiliar problem.
- m463 2y ago
  I sort of think of left-handed people. I am right handed, but overused it and switched to a left-handed mouse. There are basically infinity right-handed mice, but basically zero left-handed mice, most of which are hedged ambidextrous mice. so looking at office chairs and standing desks and all kinds of ergonomics oriented towards healthy sitting, it seems amazing that there isn't more competition for people who sit more than anyone.
  - HPsquared 2y ago
    Sounds like a nice application for 3D printing tbh. Take the electronics from a regular mouse and fit into a left-handed housing with a range of shapes/sizes etc available! Call it "second hand"
    - Miraste 2y ago
      At least one guy on reddit did this and is still sending out the files for people who ask: https://old.reddit.com/r/MouseReview/comments/enxzgg/lefty_g305_project_choose_my_color_scheme/lo33h6y/?context=3 https://old.reddit.com/r/MouseReview/comments/enxzgg/lefty_g... It seems like a massive pain though. Rebuilding a non-symmetrical mouse the other way would take electronics tinkering as well as 3d printing, and probably a ton of work to get all the connections and tolerances right. I am left handed, and I use trackpads with my left hand, but I gave up on lefty mice years ago and use an ergonomic one right-handed.
      - HPsquared 2y ago
        I'd assume the electronics are very modular and probably just clip into place in a single unit. You do need a battery compartment or something though, and the buttons need to fit well. Wheel can come from donor mouse.
xnx 2y ago
Went down a bit of a rabbit hole and found this industry guide to Taiwanese contract bike manufacturers:http://www.wheelgiant.com.tw/ebook/flib/2024TBS_%E6%95%B4%E6%9C%AC/mobile/ http://www.wheelgiant.com.tw/ebook/flib/2024TBS_%E6%95%B4%E6... If there was enough demand, I'm betting some of the companies in here could make quality wheelchairs real cheap.
- maxglute 2y ago
  When bikeshare and scooter was gaining traction, I was hoping some manufacturer would look into collapsible electronic wheel chair for mass transportation. Maybe stupid, but think a few 100 million dollars and 1000s of engineer hours would make a pretty sweet slick wheel chair scooter for short commutes.
- manquer 2y ago
  > if there was enough demand I really hope there truly isn't in a real sense. Old and new wars being fought with anti personnel mine and seeing the numbers of young and fit men and women losing limbs to uncaring political goals is disheartening reminder there well might be.
- fullstop 2y ago
  There's a group of people in Australia who recycle bicycles into makeshift wheelchairs for people living in countries with inadequate healthcare. They pack flat and are assembled on-site. https://wheelchairtrust.org.au/ https://wheelchairtrust.org.au/
- diebeforei485 2y ago
  Each wheelchair is custom so it's totally different than other products.
  - xnx 2y ago
    Is it totally different? Bikes are made and adjusted for a huge variety of body types. I understand there are different needs for wheel chair users, but I would think some level of adjustment would be possible to accommodate most of those.
changing1999 2y ago
I have no knowledge of this specific product area but wondering what aspect of the wheelchair in the photo results in this seemingly high cost? (to note, I understand that this is still far cheaper than other wheelchairs). Is it the material cost? It looks like it's just a few pipes, a cushion, and a pair of wheels. About the same build as a basic bicycle.
- paulddraper 2y ago
  First, have you purchased a bicycle? "High quality" bicycles start at $1,000. (quality dimensions = weight, comfort, durability, flexibility) Second, small scale manufacturing is expensive. Third, large-scale manufactured wheelchairs have the same problem as the rest of the medical equipment world: prices are subsidized/inflated by insurance.
  - changing1999 2y ago
    I've only ever owned fairly cheap commuter bikes like Specialized. But even then, the quality and the comfort were OK. I guess in this case, small scale and configurability makes the biggest difference in wheelchairs vs bikes.
    - dghlsakjg 2y ago
      Wheelchair users spend their entire waking lives using wheelchairs, more or less. They are justifiably VERY particular about their mobility. If you had to spend all day, every day, riding a bike, and a failure meant that you would spend days or weeks (seriously, wheelchair repairs are SLOW), stuck in your house, how seriously would you take your bike options? A badly fit wheelchair can send disabled people to the hospital with really serious problems. Now imagine that bikes normally cost $5k-$20k. How stoked would you be to see someone offering an equivalent bike for $999?
- bluGill 2y ago
  Mostly the machines the factory uses. You can cut tubes by hand and drill those holes, but the machines are more accurate and faster. However those machines will cost you in the million range each in some cases. (the $1000 Chinese versions for home use are kits that will cost you $10k to make accurate and the quality means they will wear out fast so while find for building a couple they are more expensive than the million dollar machines in the long run) That investment needs to be amortized across whatever you build and wheelchairs are not high volume. You can't go with cheaper less flexible machines either because each wheelchair needs to be somewhat custom fit. That in turn means you need to the more expensive machines instead of simple jigs that. They also need someone to program the machines for your custom fit (or software to create that program)
ossobuco 2y ago
Or, what happens when you take greed and profit out of the equation.
jeanlucas 2y ago
Hah, now it makes more sense why Jerry was being so active on GoodTimesWithScar Twitter feed. Scar is also a wheelchair user, but is mostly famous for his YouTube landscaping videos. Nice to see this, Jerry is not just another YouTuber grifter, he's a maker and has been involved building for his wife for a while.
- tredre3 2y ago
  His name is Zack, not Jerry. I know, it's confusing.
  - jeanlucas 2y ago
    Meh, lots of people call him Jerry for a while now. I know you're not aware because you're not a fan and just wants to one up on HN. He said already he chose Jerry in honor of his grandfather who was a fixer. On an interview with MKBHD (btw, I know MKBHD is not literally that guy's name) he said he just rolls with it when someone calls him Jerry.
    - tredre3 2y ago
      I know you're just trying to gotcha me, but as a fellow fan you probably already know that he prefers when people call him by his given name.
      - jeanlucas 2y ago
        https://www.youtube.com/shorts/eG4PZaf7QxY https://www.youtube.com/shorts/eG4PZaf7QxY
Waterluvian 2y ago
My former girlfriend gets powered wheelchairs through the Ontario Disability Support Program, and I witnessed and learned that the whole thing is such a fraud. Her powered chair was just over $20,000 and was a terrible piece of machinery. You were definitely not getting the "medical devices have to be reliable" premium. And any time the technician came out, we got a bill to forward to ODSP for thousands of dollars, even for the simplest fix. And of course there was zero competition: there was one and exactly one vendor you could go to for this stuff. They were, of course, terrible with customer service, terrible with technician competence, and their products were consistently terrible. I'm usually instantly skeptical of any tech startup that wants to airdrop into a problem space and disrupt things, but in this case, I'm 38,000% confident that there's something that can be done with this one.
- badjoak 2y ago
  You had to have cashflow to pay those bills and wait for a redund? Sounds terrifying.
  - loufe 2y ago
    I have an Ontarian optometrist in the immediate family. I helped them set up a very tangled and innefficient ODSP claims process. It's a terribly, terribly managed program. I'm not sure if the OP has to pay and be reimbursed, but I wouldn't be surprised. That family member has to wait upwards of a year sometimes to be reimbursed, occaisionnaly they wait that much time only to be refused because of a "problem" which is not detailed anyways, so the business has to waste time to figure out problems. All the while, they are in the hole for that money.
  - nick3443 2y ago
    Sounds like someone should make them available to lease
  - Waterluvian 2y ago
    No, ODSP covered it. The vendor would basically have an outstanding balance on the account until ODSP sent them the money. Still had to send the paperwork in to get that all going.
agumonkey 2y ago
Are there open source community for all things biomedical devices ? even partial exoskeleton (not joking, looking for practical attempts to help elders)
- cjbgkagh 2y ago
  Most of this stuff is still a bit too expensive for DIY, Festool have an ExoActive exoskeleton that might be repurposable - though I think it's designed mostly for holding weight above the head. There is the 'body braid' that is probably more suited for the tasks that the elderly have trouble with.
modeless 2y ago
I just watched a factory tour of this yesterday: https://youtu.be/oBId9w7NgAQ https://youtu.be/oBId9w7NgAQ Seems like they are setting up a pretty fancy operation using their YouTube money. Pretty cool!
stevenseb 2y ago
[flagged]
hinkley 2y ago
It did not occur to me that wheelchairs are this expensive. But then again they make fewer of them than bicycles and a bicycle you want to be on hundreds of days a year can start at that price and go up into car prices.
UncleOxidant 2y ago
That's really cool. But I also notice that when I go to thrift stores in my area that there are often wheelchairs available for $25 or less. Similar for walkers and other mobility devices that tend to be really expensive new.
- BanazirGalbasi 2y ago
  This is why reading comments before contributing to the conversation is useful. There are already several comments outlining why a $25 wheelchair, especially a used one found at thrift stores, isn't comparable. Build quality, weight, fit, convenience, portability - all of these are reasons to spend more on a wheelchair. We don't question why different computers are more expensive than others even though they all do the same job. We don't question why one bike costs more than another despite using the same mechanism for propulsion. Wheelchairs are another good with varying levels of quality at different price points. It's arguably more important for quality goods to be accessible because for many, they're living in these things constantly.
basirulbillah 2y ago
1k for a wheelchair is unbelievable for me. In Bangladesh they cost about 7 to 9 thousands taka which is equivalent 60 to 100 USD. I don't understand.
- loufe 2y ago
  There are obvious COL differences between regions which can account for a huge part of that. There's a reason we lost our manufacturing base in the west to China. Are the chairs you're speaking of customized? Are they using the components of a similar quality? That may be a component, as well.
- Suppafly 2y ago
  >I don't understand. Almost completely different products.
- diebeforei485 2y ago
  Those are not custom (typically come pre-sized) and are generally not very usable outdoors to get around other than short distances. Sometimes known as "hospital wheelchairs". For people with temporary injuries who are mostly taking time off from work it's fine. This is a everyday wheelchair that people can use to get to somewhere a mile or two away and back, often used by people to get to work or around a university campus independently. It is custom made to your measurements: https://notawheelchair.com/pages/configurator https://notawheelchair.com/pages/configurator https://www.sammcintosh.com/blog/wheelchairtypes0620 https://www.sammcintosh.com/blog/wheelchairtypes0620
- delfinom 2y ago
  Those are shitty wheelchairs not meant for use by people permanently disabled by western standards. We have plenty of imported cheap wheelchairs on Amazon in the US. I mean sure you could use them, but they aren't customized to your body dimensions for life long comfort. They won't hold up to long term abuse actually going outside daily for life and work. In the west, we actually legally mandate buildings and transportation accommodate wheelchair users, so they can actually live like normal people. Heck they can also legally drive. Back to the wheelchair, the foundation of this $1k wheelchair which is bent aluminum instead of welded metal is a massive increase in reliability where a cheap chair could instead break a weld and leave someone stranded in the middle of nowhere.
amadeuspagel 2y ago
It's cool how they get both capital and distribution from their YouTube channel. Are there any other "real" business started from YouTube like this?
- tills13 2y ago
  for better or worse the entire Mr Beast empire and, to an extent, Logan Paul and his ventures (Prime, etc)
  - ruune 2y ago
    These never made it further than "I'm buying this because I like MrBeast/Logan Paul/etc." at least as far as I can tell. These wheelchairs are supposed to become good enough that any regular disabled person that can't walk* will seriously consider them even without knowing who makes them. *English isn't my first language, no idea what a proper inoffensive way to describe the target audience is. I mean no harm :)
    - al_borland 2y ago
      I ordered a Beast Burger on Door Dash without having any clue it was a Mr Beast thing until it showed up and was heavily branded. I wanted a burger and figured I'd try something new. I had never really watched any Mr Beast videos at that point. For whatever reason, he is never recommended to me. The seasoning was so strong it was a bit hard to eat. I assumed it was covering up for lower quality meat or something. I have no desire to order one again.
      - huvarda 2y ago
        Mr Beast burgers werent even a real restaurant. Theyre just faceless ghost kitchens with a mrbeast sticker slapped on top.
        al_borland 2y ago
        I’ve tried various things from ghost kitchens via Door Dash. Some are better than others. From the little I understand, someone like Beast Burger would come up with a recipe, then provide the supplies and recipes to the ghost kitchen to make it. If the ghost kitchen is really Chili’s, it’s not the Chili’s burger showing up when a Mr Beast label, it’s Chili’s Employees in the Chili’s kitchen, making the Beast Burger recipes.
double0jimb0 2y ago
Two passes around the holes with the laser will get rid of the rewelding issue.
nothercastle 2y ago
The BOM for this wheel chair is probably 200-300 of just wheels and bearings maybe more. People who say this can be bought for 200$ are completely out of touch. You can’t even buy a decent bike for much under a grad new and bikes have much better scale.
- andybak 2y ago
  My bike cost £75
  - unreal6 2y ago
    was it new?
  - r0fl 2y ago
    A decent bike for a child costs more than that these days in North America. You either bought this bike used, stolen, in 1989 or are trolling.
    - andybak 2y ago
      I bought it used. Why does that discount my statement?
    - geerlingguy 2y ago
      Even a cheap Walmart kids bike costs more than that now. (Even the toddler bikes are reaching up there in price.)
    - hug 2y ago
      This thread is bonkers. I'm not even American and it took me all of two minutes to find a bike for $118 USD (or about 90 GBP) available from Walmart. Here it is: https://www.walmart.com/ip/1121295 https://www.walmart.com/ip/1121295 It looks like a perfectly serviceable bike, if not the most amazing experience. I bet you with proper maintenance it could last you decades and thousands of miles. People in this thread who are claiming a new bike is nearly $1000 are on another planet. I get that this isn't a wheelchair, doesn't have anything to do with wheelchair prices, and I would certainly not want to rely on this thing in the way a wheelchair user must rely on their chair, but c'mon, guys, stop with the wild hyperbole about bike prices.
syntaxfree 2y ago
Resale value is important for wheelchairs. My dad had an electric one for about 8 months before he passed on, and the TCO was well under the price of all these alt concepts.
robocat 2y ago
Hopefully someone does the same thing for rollators (walking frames). I bought a few second-hand for my mum and they were all had disgustingly terrible usability. Brakes that didn't work properly (huge safety issue). Parts poking out (and flying brake-lines) that would catch on everything, or cause mum problems. One sharp bit at the wheels damaged the skin at her ankle and she couldn't do anything for weeks to recover. It was a very serious problem caused by thoughtless design. And we are in New Zealand which is better than many places. It is terrible watching people struggle in other countries (or lack access to the simplest requirement). Good usability is hard enough to find for the smart and strong. It is extremely hard to find for the weak and infirm. Especially when supplied through government services! Finding her a wheelchair was hard because she is tiny and needed a teen sized one. But everything available second-hand or through our social services was designed for heavier people with wide arses (imported chairs?). Luckily found a wheelchair manufacturer in my city that had one designed for a teen on special (end-of-line - not manufacturing standard wheelchairs any more - changing to focus on expensive specialist sports chairs).
xyst 2y ago
That’s a wholesome story. Hope the company stays employee owned for a long time. Seen too many companies which started like this but after exchanging a few hands (ie, ending up in the hands of grand children). It ends up getting scrapped for parts and sold to the highest bidder.
acyou 2y ago
If it pans out, looks like an OK way to get a backup chair. But we still need the mainstream way, which is the seating specialists and therapists to accurately spec, size and adjust the chair with the user in it. Curious if they will go get FDA approval, so that they can get the chair properly funded. I suspect that the same people who don't have health insurance also won't have $1000 lying around. If the chair is funded, they should be able to access a larger market and help more people going that route. For power wheelchairs, FDA application process is a huge reason they have limited competition and are so expensive. For those who love to wave their hands and cut red tape, I think it mostly has to do with people not dying because they are set on fire by power wheelchair battery fires, or getting crushed by their wheelchair actuators. I am just curious about this from a safety perspective. The FDA approval process covers a lot of ground. Who makes sure the chairs are safe? Who checks the pinch points? Who crash tests the transit tie downs? Who does fatigue testing? Who does tip-over testing? What happens if someone is using the chair and gets hurt due to a material or design flaw? Who makes sure the chair fits properly and users don't get repetitive stress injuries? Who tests the upholstery to make sure it is fire retardant? Who checks the chair with the user in it to make sure they have posture that doesn't lead to severe long term problems? I, for one, would not consider sidestepping FDA in order to ethically and legally answer for all of those risks. But despite all of that I admire the sentiment of this project, it certainly seems to be done with the best of intentions.
paledot 2y ago
Late to the party, but I just wanted to say how refreshing it is to see an accessibility-related post on HN that isn't about a bunch of able-bodied MIT undergrads winning awards from able-bodied judge panels for building a product that disabled people can't use to solve a problem that disabled people don't have. There is effectively zero overlap between problems that able-bodied people think that disabled people have, and problems that disabled people actually have.
codedokode 2y ago
As I understand, it doesn't even have a motor? Why cannot we have an electric wheelchair for everyone today? How do you climb uphill (or from an underground passage) without a motor? Also, I don't know anything bout wheelchairs but googling shows that there are Chinese electric wheelchairs below $1000 (don't know anything about their quality).
- sterlind 2y ago
  Traditional power chairs are much bigger and heavier than lightweight manual chairs. They're a nightmare to transport unless you have a custom van with an elevator. They also can't handle curbs. Ultralight manual chairs are often foldable, and light enough that you can transfer out of your chair into the driver's seat of a car, take the chair apart and put the pieces in the passenger's seat of a normal sedan. That level of independence is huge. Also, you can pop wheelies over curbs and other obstacles. Finally, pushing yourself keeps you in shape, since you miss out on the baseline exercise from walking. Otherwise you decondition and get weak and fragile. Power chairs are for those who can't push themselves sustainably. As many others have commented, every user's disability and body is unique. You're spending 16 hours a day in the chair. If it doesn't fit you, you'll get pressure sores or strain injuries. The cheap ones are for people who don't need to use them that much.
  - roywiggins 2y ago
    Power-assist chairs are pretty neat though, I knew a guy who basically DIYed one, I think from a kit, starting with a manual chair. He could wheel for miles on it and keep in shape.
    - sterlind 2y ago
      Yeah, back when I needed a chair I used an ultralight with Yamaha power assist wheels. It was great - a little chonkier than a pure manual but I could go anywhere, plus I got to keep my VW Beetle instead of needing a $100k wheelchair van.
- diebeforei485 2y ago
not_the_fda 2y ago
Quite frankly this is against the law. Wheelchairs are considered a class II medical device. Just because you are cheeky and say its "not a wheelchair", its still a wheelchair and is subject medical device regulation. A wheelchair can cause a sorts of harm if not designed properly and built of high quality.
patmcc 2y ago
This looks like a very cool project and I'm happy to see it. But please, to the author: give us some real price comparisons! I don't know how much a wheelchair costs. After reading this article, I still don't. Just be crystal clear and say "a simple manual wheelchair, approved by insurance, is often $4k, with $1k paid out of pocket" or whatever.
- paledot 2y ago
  You're in the right ballpark, though a good chair can easily get you into the 5 figures. Top-end is perhaps $20k.
- volfonibros 2y ago
  From their front page : "For more than three decades, New Mobility has published groundbreaking content for active wheelchair users." Fair from them to assume the (average) reader is familiar with the subject.
jojobas 2y ago
There electric bikes way under $1000, and allow frame bikes under $200. Just checked and there are $400 wheelchairs out there. How is a $1000 wheelchair an achievement?
nojvek 2y ago
Yessss! Made in America with humans and CNC robots. That’s the future we should be aiming for.
FpUser 2y ago
Nothing against a product (assuming it does not fall apart) but what I see should cost $200. This is what is fucking wrong with our Western World.
stevage 2y ago
I'm surprised there isn't some cheap option from China. There must be millions of wheelchair users around the world, it's a small market but it's not tiny.
sizzle 2y ago
Tapping into the collective wisdom of wheelchair enthusiasts of HN. What would you recommend for my parent, they are using a crappy Medicare approved Medline wheelchair that’s like $300 on Amazon. They can’t use their right side of their body really due to a stroke paralysis. They can wheel around with one arm and leg. The wheelchair is like starting to fall apart. What should I I get them that will last many years? Thanks!
- skylurk 2y ago
  I know nothing about wheelchairs, but have you considered one with a joystick?
- diebeforei485 2y ago
  There are a lot of variables. You can ask an occupational therapist about what sort of wheelchair would be best. If it's a case where they move themselves indoors but get pushed by others outdoors, it arguably does not matter. But if they are independent outside the home, you need a custom chair suited to them.
beej71 2y ago
Home crap. I thought at first this was advertising an expensive wheelchair. TIL.
pkphilip 2y ago
$1k for a manual wheelchair? and that is considered cheap? I have no idea why a wheelchair should be that expensive. We get them here in India for far less - you can buy pretty good wheelchairs for much less than $100. You can get powered wheelchairs for around $500. https://www.amazon.in/b/ref=dp_bc_aui_C_3?ie=UTF8&node=11365037031 https://www.amazon.in/b/ref=dp_bc_aui_C_3?ie=UTF8&node=11365...
- 650REDHAIR 2y ago
  Those are not good wheelchairs for independent people to spend 16+ hours in. I work in EMS and see all kinds of "budget" wheelchairs and they'll all shit. The parts alone for this lightweight chair have to crack $300.
  - pkphilip 2y ago
    [dead]
  - asddubs 2y ago
    I don't doubt it, but just out of curiosity, could you elaborate the ways in which they're shit?
    - leghifla 2y ago
      see my earlier post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41721976 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41721976
  - dfgsdfgwef 2y ago
    Wheelchair market is ripe for IKEA.
  - srockets 2y ago
    Don't forget labor: welding lightweight, exotic materials requires a lot of experience, as every imperfection in the weld will lead to it cracking with time, which would be extremely dangerous.
- 2y ago
pjdesno 2y ago
Just wondering - why is it that a bunch of tech bros who would think nothing of spending $2-300 on some fancy-ass keyboard because it’s incrementally more comfortable to their fingertips than a $15 one from Microcenter think that a person doesn’t care about the quality of a wheelchair they’re going to be stuck in for all their waking hours?
- elicash 2y ago
  Given your wonder, you should consider checking out the article. They clearly care a lot about customizations and comfort.
- roywiggins 2y ago
  More to the point, why are a bunch of techies who are probably sitting on $3000 ergonomic office chairs wondering why a good wheelchair might cost a few thousand?
- pentae 2y ago
  Why are we assuming that this isn't a quality/comfortable wheelchair?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
perryizgr8 2y ago
$1000 is exorbitant for a non-motorised wheelchair. Here's [1] amazon.in offering a lot of options at ~$50. I bet these guys could import it from India and it wouldn't cost them more than $200. [1] https://www.amazon.in/s?k=wheelchair&crid=22DWLE90LFB7O&sprefix=wheelchai%2Caps%2C197&ref=nb_sb_ss_pltr-data-refreshed_1_9 https://www.amazon.in/s?k=wheelchair&crid=22DWLE90LFB7O&spre...
- roywiggins 2y ago
  How many ergonomic office chairs go for $50? Wheelchairs take several orders of magnitude more abuse and need to cope with several orders of magnitude more complex needs than your average office worker and your average nice ergonomic office chair is hardly cheap.
  - perryizgr8 2y ago
    Ergonomic office chairs are a ridiculous rip off too.
- delfinom 2y ago
  Can you ask the Amazon seller how much it costs to custmoize the wheelchair to my specific dimensions? While you are at it, can you ask them how much it costs to make the frame out of a single piece of bent aluminum so there are no risks of welds snapping and leaving me stranded? You know in the west that wheelchair users actually go outside right? We legally mandate that buildings and transportation require accomodations for wheelchairs. People in wheelchairs even drive cars. Wheelchair users that are active need far better quality frames than "hospital wheelchairs" you can find for $50. And you can already buy these on Amazon.com US. There is no need to get into a game of trying to compete with the existing importers.
zaps 2y ago
Wheelchairs… engagement presents… it never ends!
jillesvangurp 2y ago
I just did a search for wheelchairs on the German version of Amazon. I'm not in the market but I was just curious. https://www.amazon.de/-/en/gp/bestsellers/drugstore/2860298031 https://www.amazon.de/-/en/gp/bestsellers/drugstore/28602980... There are lots of models with very reasonable prices and features; mostly well below 1000 euros. Including a few electric ones. Manual ones seem to be generally well below 500 euros. At 1000 euros we're talking some seriously tricked out models with all sorts of features that I'd probably want if I was in the market. I'd probably spend a bit more. And I'd be very surprised to not get support from my insurer for this. The model in the article pretty bare bones in comparison. Not just a little bit. Like really bare bones. I'm sure it's great and ergonomic and really good quality. But what's the real story here? Inept US manufacturing or corrupt US insurers? Or both? For reference, I just found a very reasonable looking electric wheelchair for 999 euros by a company called WISGING. With some 5 star reviews from buyers. In stock. Would arrive around 9 October if I ordered it now. 20km range, apparently. The stuff on Amazon looks like it comes mostly from China where they are probably producing these things in large volumes to provide affordable, decent wheel chairs for whomever needs them around the world. The world is bigger than the US and people use wheel chairs all over the place. The kind of pricing and quality cited in the article in the US would be completely unacceptable in most parts of the world. And never mind the shipping times. Is it not possible to simply import these things? I'm sure there are some tariffs to deal with but even so, what's stopping people here?
- roywiggins 2y ago
  it's funny seeing comments like this on the same website where people insist- not unreasonably- that buying $3k ergonomic office chairs and motorized sit-stand desks for office workers is a must. Why can't they sit on piled up packing pallets? It's much cheaper and still kind of chair-shaped.
  - Netherland4TW 2y ago
    I don't believe the parent comment is saying people who need wheelchairs should get a cheaper worse option, they are pointing out that reasonable options in Germany exist for less than a grand whereas in the US, these reasonable options are borderline unaffordable
lofaszvanitt 2y ago
[flagged]
flower-giraffe 2y ago
There should be an IKEA for medical devices relying on scale to absorb design, testing and regulatory compliance. The AirPod hearing aid feature and other OTC hearing aids from headphone manufacturers demonstrate it’s possible to leverage modern consumer electronics improvements for devices with a higher engineering barrier to entry than a wheelchair. I think paying a premium for anything via insurance is detrimental to markets and only benefits bottom feeding bandits and deferring or deflecting the cost.
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  I'm really curious about the hearing aid feature, but haven't seen any review actually featuring a patient using it in a real world situation. I was assuming there would be pre FDA approval reviews, but doesn't seem to be the case. The older accessibility feature didn't seem to be that great, and I'm pretty eager to see how much it improves through the complete revamp of it before throwing money at it.
BaudouinVH 2y ago
Meanwhile in Europe, you can buy a wheelchair for 558 euros (about 620 USD). https://monfauteuilroulant.com/Fauteuils-Roulants/Fauteuil-roulant-standard https://monfauteuilroulant.com/Fauteuils-Roulants/Fauteuil-r...
ninalanyon 2y ago
In the UK you can buy a simple wheelchair for 132 GBP: https://www.uk-wheelchairs.co.uk/ugo-essential-self-propelled-wheelchair https://www.uk-wheelchairs.co.uk/ugo-essential-self-propelle... And what look like slightly fancier ones for between 300 and 500 GBP: https://www.millercare.co.uk/collections/self-propel-wheelchairs https://www.millercare.co.uk/collections/self-propel-wheelch... A magnesium alloy framed one is only 450 GBP: https://www.mobilitysmart.co.uk/magnelite-self-propelled-wheelchair.html https://www.mobilitysmart.co.uk/magnelite-self-propelled-whe... So what am I missing?
- permo-w 2y ago
  it seems to be similar with hearing aids. I recently saw a video explaining that the new airpods will be usable as hearing aids. the video went on to explain that this will make them great value for deaf people as hearing aids can run into the thousands of dollars. I just checked and you can get hearing aids in my country for less than $100. so what's going on? I'm guessing this is either a non-problem, i.e. the expenses are being exaggerated by competitors; or it's some kind of private healthcare thing where everything is insanely expensive because the government doesn't negotiate prices centrally
  - tim333 2y ago
    My dad bought hearing aids that cost like £2000 (private, UK). The market here is kind of split between fairly mundane ones you can buy in shops for £100 or so (or free on the NHS) and fancy ones you get prescribed by an audiologist with computer sound processing that are more like £2000. My dad's never actually cracked his biggest problem which was if you are at a table with many people talking, picking out one conversation. It looks like the coming Apple AI may actually be able to do that. It's a hard problem technically.
    - pomatic 2y ago
      Actually, it isn't that hard a problem technically, you just need a directional mic. I'm deaf, I have NHS issued equipment, and I have a specific setting that makes the mics more directional. Additionally (slightly off topic for the reply, but perhaps of interest) I also have the option of using a discreet wireless mic about the size of a pencap that I can give to presenters or pass round the table. Again, NHS issued, for which I'm very grateful.
jimnotgym 2y ago
You can get a crappy wheelchair for £100 off ebay. The gap from crappy to decent seems very high!
whoitwas 2y ago
$1000 seems very expensive. But considering it's always being used, maybe not terrible.
GaryNumanVevo 2y ago
Mormons get it done!
ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
I find the story of the company inspiring. As someone that Serves a small, rather shunned demographic, I applaud them. One difference, though, is that I am not competing with moneyed interests. They can play dirty.
wojo1206 2y ago
We live in IL, US. I just received wheelchair for my 3 year old son. We waited for this 9 months. This wheelchair has not any electronics or complex parts and, according to EOBs, costed our private insurance exactly: $18,212 (yes that is 18K! I just added this up and verified) after all deductions and discounts! After that, we received follow up call from the company that delivered the chair. We expressed our not satisfaction because we seen other wheelchairs that looked much more portable and sleek comparing to ours. I think the problem was that we were not provided with options at all. After which, they stopped communicating with us.
thomasfl 2y ago
Isn't this communism or socialism? I thought US citizens were allergic to socialism? That's the only reasonable explanation to why USA still has an archaic, super expensive private healthcare? "To be clear, Not a Wheelchair isn’t a nonprofit — it’s currently licensed as a benefit company, a newer designation of a for-profit company that provides a public service."
kqr2 2y ago
https://whirlwindwheelchair.org/ https://whirlwindwheelchair.org/ Professor Ralf Hotchkiss used to teach a course at SFSU on how to build wheelchairs.

965 points by bo0tzz 2y ago

So I follow some disability activists and it's kinda depressing just how hostile society is and people are to people with disabilities. And this crops up everywhere. So for wheelchairs, for example, airlines routinely damage or destroy or lose wheelchairs, like 1000+ a month [1]. You need to be aware that wheelchairs typically need to be customized for the user. You typically can't just buy a wheelchair on Amazon and you're good to go. Using a replacement wheelchair can represent a significant safety risk. Only now is the DoT starting to take action to curb this [2]. But what other group of people would such reckless disregard and gross negligence be tolerated for? We just had Hurricane Helene wreak havoc through Appalachia. Usually in these situations people on the outside will criticize those who didn't evacuate. This happened in Katrina too. But you know who often can't evacuate? Disabled people. Look at our response to Covid. The powers-that-be wanted everyone to get back to work and be busy worker bees that could once again produce value that would be exploited. So isolation restrictions were loosened. We capitulated to the irrational and completely self-centered whims of antivaxxers. There was a war on mask mandates. This went so far in some places as to literally ban masks [3]. This is all despite some people being immunocompromised and Covid never going away. We're essentially decided those people can just die. But beyond them, you know what else Covid was? A mass disabling event. I'm talking about long Covid. This affects probably millions of people. These once healthy people are going to learn the hard way what the wanton disregard for disabled people looks like. Anyway, I applaud efforts like cheaper and faster to produce wheelchairs. They won't suit everyone but we shouldn't tolerate a situation where it might take months for someone to get a wheelchair, But can we stop destroying wheelchairs too? [1]: https://blurredbylines.com/articles/broken-wheelchairs-airlines-disabilities-advocate-engracia-figueroa/ https://blurredbylines.com/articles/broken-wheelchairs-airli... [2]: https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234708784/airlines-wheelchairs-damaged-disabilities-transportation-department https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234708784/airlines-wheelchai... [3]: https://abcnews.go.com/US/wearing-masks-public-now-illegal-nassau-county-new/story?id=112652433 https://abcnews.go.com/US/wearing-masks-public-now-illegal-n...

codedokode 2y ago
By chance, don't you know why we cannot have electric wheelchair for everyone who needs it? Manual wheelchair seems to be not very convenient and to require lot of effort to use it.
- roywiggins 2y ago
  we barely supply good manual wheelchairs to everyone who needs them, the article talks about why not.
- srockets 2y ago
  Motorized wheelchairs are not a good fit for everyone. They are much bigger, heavier, harder to transport (you need a van), and even with a clutch to allow emergency non-motorized use, because of their design and weight, they can't be really used without a motor, so you're f*ked if the battery runs out. They're good for some uses, for some folks, but are not a solution for all.
  - tpmoney 2y ago
    Newer battery tech is helping improve the “compactness” of motorized chairs. We have a “fold and go” (https://www.foldandgowheelchairs.com/ https://www.foldandgowheelchairs.com/) which can fit in a car trunk (though still want a full size sedan or bigger if you plan on putting anything else in there) and at 60lbs is only about 50% heavier than some of the heavy “standard” chairs out there. Still not something you’re going to move well on your own without an able bodied assistant or some specialized equipment, but compared to older motorized chairs it’s a huge improvement

tocs3 2y ago

It would be nice to see a little more of this in the world. Thank you Cambry and Zack Nelson.

loloquwowndueo 2y ago

I just checked online and wheelchairs here (Canada) can be had for about US $500. What am I missing in this $1K “affordable” wheelchair idea?

flyrain 2y ago
Most of them are under $200 in Amazon
- skylurk 2y ago
  Would you buy an under-$200 bike off of Amazon? Especially one you spent all day on?
  - tredre3 2y ago
    I don't know about Amazon, but $200 is the price of a reasonable entry-level bike in any large surface store so yes? I know this is HN and people will likely look down on anyone riding a <$2000 bike, but come on.
    - pjdesno 2y ago
      I ride a lot, and am happy to ride cheap bikes, but I probably wouldn't ride a $200 Amazon or Walmart bike for rides longer than 30-40 miles without swapping the saddle, which would add anywhere from $40 to $150.
    - ajford 2y ago
      The question was would you spend that on a device you spend 8+hrs in each day, which is something people often ignore. This is a device you _live_ in. This is someone's mobility and independence you're talking about. Not a "I spend 30 minutes to an hour a day riding", or a "I commute to work on this" but instead "I use this to enjoy life".
    - kelnos 2y ago
      Most people don't ride their bike every single day, sometimes for 8-12 hours per day. If you did, you probably wouldn't be particularly happy with a $200 bike.

jrexilius 2y ago

This pretty much embodies why I love hacker engineering. Solving hard problems by itself is fun, making peoples lives better in the process makes it really worthwhile.

flimflamm 2y ago

[flagged]

rtkwe 2y ago
Shipping makes them pretty consistently $116ish/piece until you hit negotiated shipping numbers. They're also not the kind of wheelchair people are looking for if they're self mobile which is the kind of chair the article is reporting on. Those are made lighter and more resilient to stand up to being used by one person out in the world rolling themselves around.
fodkodrasz 2y ago
These are not the same class of products. The alibaba ones are almost like disposable lower quality solutions, have textile backs, and are foldable, etc. which also have their places and uses eg. after disasters, mass depoyment, handout at hospitals as temporary solutions. The product in the linked article is clearly a higher quality item intended for longer term use by a single person. 1k$ is the cost of a decent office work-chair from any well-established low-to-medium volume vendor, as context. For a small shop like this it is an okay price, abeit the sum being a lot for many especialy in a new situation where they are forced to a wheelchair. Mass production could probably drive it down a lot, but you need volume for that. ps: with volume you can also better amortize the engineering costs, which can be significant even for stuff looking simple and easy to do for those who did not do it yet... or did (even significant, core) parts of the product development in a large established firm. I also started a product development for simple looking stuff that turned out to be a lot lot more work when not being done only as a hack/PoC, but developed to a product. I abandoned the product before going for the official certifications (FCC, CE, etc.). For medical equipment they probably also need to meet regulations.
sekai 2y ago
> 1k$ is pretty steep. It's not if you don't want to sacrifice quality, USA made is also a bonus. Kudos to JerryRigEverything.
Etheryte 2y ago
This is like saying a $30 display off Aliexpress is better than a $1000 display from a high quality brand. The only metric it will be better on will be the price, everything else will be a ridiculous comparison.

SirFatty 2y ago

before clicking the link, I thought it would be something along the lines of a Dean Kamen iBOT chair. Seems like a lot of money for a basic wheelchair.

edm0nd 2y ago
These aren't basic wheelchairs like at the hospital imo. They are the wheelchairs that someone is going to spend their entire day/life in and use for mobility. Huge difference I think. It's also heavily customizable https://notawheelchair.com/pages/configurator https://notawheelchair.com/pages/configurator
m463 2y ago
hmm... looks like the ibot is available? $25-30k https://newmobility.com/the-ibot-is-back/ https://newmobility.com/the-ibot-is-back/ also I looked and a walmart wheelchair is $149. Wonder why it sucks.

kkfx 2y ago

Ehm... Seeing the product... A right price could be more 300$, and only because not made in China, than 1000... If mass produced could be more 150$...

sethrd_ 2y ago
You should do some research into wheelchairs and the differences in designs, materials, and life times to better understand why the $1000 price tag on what the company is offering is actually incredible. This is for someone who has a spinal cord injury and has to be in a chair fulltime, not those hospital style chairs you are probably thinking of.
- kkfx 2y ago
  Well, materials seems to be very common, and indeed even if they are precious alloys to be lighter it's still a very high price. Research have to be payed of course, but again you can sell a product, no more than that. I've heard many time about "special design", "this price is really right" and so on, all the time it was wrong. Oh, that does not means it's a bad product, it's simply overpriced and the price might even be right seen their expenses and resources, but it's still too much for a market who offer other very similar product at a much little price. An idea alone does not suffice.
  - sethrd_ 2y ago
    I've mentioned in other comments the difference between "hospital" style wheelchairs and full time use wheelchairs used by people with spinal cord injuries or other mobility issues. Full time wheelchairs are 1/3 or more lighter than the hospital style, more rigid which makes pushing more efficient, more comfortable, and easier to maneuver. You cannot compare these wheelchairs to what you might sit in at the emergency room, as they are for different use cases and fill different needs. These wheelchairs aren't for "oh I broke my leg and have to use a wheelcahir for a few months". These are for "I will be spending 14+ hours a day in this chair." Please do some research about rigid frame wheelchairs before saying you don't see how this is a big deal. Companies like TiLite and Quickie START at almost double this price point for similar products.

fotta 2y ago

Custom fit lightweight wheelchairs are expensive. My Ti-Lite (one of the most popular lightweight chair brands) Aero Z starts at $3k and goes up quickly with wheels and backrest and casters and various other options that I need for sitting 16 hours a day without creating more problems. Insurance covers this for me every 5 years, but of course that's not a luxury every one has. Most plans don't cover DME 100%. What Zack and Cambry are doing is great. (edit) I’d like to add that I think part of being able to drive costs down is that they’re not offering these via insurance so they sidestep the need for FDA approval to market it as a medical device (hence the company name), CMS approval and HCPCS coding and all the regulatory costs that come with that. Now don't get me started on power wheelchair cost...

gibrown 2y ago
Ya, I was expecting to see something not very impressive at that link, but was pleasantly surprised. My chair is about $7k and while this one doesn't look like it would work for me, it is definitely much better than the cheap hospital chairs.
- max-ibel 2y ago
  Are the hospital chairs cheap? Genuinely asking...
  - roywiggins 2y ago
    Amazon appears to offer such chairs for like $200? They're probably crap though.
    - paledot 2y ago
      They're crap. And that's what you find at hospitals and airports.
- svpk 2y ago
  If you don’t mind sharing, what aspects of it make it seem like it wouldn’t work for you?

sandworm101 2y ago

>> It’s mesmerizing to watch. When the laser is done cutting, sometimes the leftover material just falls out, but sometimes it stays in place. Please be very careful when watching an industrial laser, particularly one cutting shiny metal. I would honestly support any reg that puts hard barriers between eyeballs and running laser equipment. Invest in a good camera and watch the show on a screen.

rtkwe 2y ago
It is enclosed. They show a picture later and there's a green safety window to view the work piece in the machine, that material will be designed to block whatever wavelength of light the laser is using (most likely IR, and what do you know safety glasses for the IR bands are mostly green).
- sandworm101 2y ago
  No. Such materials are designed to let through all but the narrow wavelengths expected of the laser. And some IR "shields" actually reflect IR light rather than absorb it. A proper laser shield should not be engineered to do the minimum necessary. Metal works. Wood works. Even blackout curtains bought at walmart can work.
  - rtkwe 2y ago
    Properly rated safety shields can absolutely be transparent and properly block the necessary wavelengths. The color comes from the wavelengths they're blocking. Weird stance to take that the entire industry is wrong about laser safety. Lasers emit a known frequency unless they're extremely expensive and designed to create broad spectrums, it's only with cheap consumer units you'll see IR diodes being poorly upconverted to a different color with IR leakage. These cutters use CO2 or fiber lasers and IR is the desired output..

Havoc 2y ago

For context - he has a ~9m sub youtube channel on phones that must be banking it. This is a side project that appears to be grown out of frustration of disabled wife & seeing the shitshow that wheelchair market is. Seems 10/10 wholesome to have this disrupted by someone that cares

TrainedMonkey 2y ago
> This is a side project that appears to be grown out of frustration of disabled wife & seeing the shitshow that wheelchair market is While it is absolutely true that he cares, I think you are selling his long term plans short. The primary growth factor for the channel was reviewing phones with the repairability / endurance focus, but somewhat recently he expanded to topics such as plugging abandoned oil wells which are leaking methane and wheelchair mobility issues. From what I understand he has a couple similar things in the pipeline.
- 123pie123 2y ago
  i think he's a better than average presenter for a youtube channel. I did like his huge bunker videos my biggest annoyance is his plugging or advertising stuff too obviously
  - jeanlucas 2y ago
    Man has to pay bills
    - flutas 2y ago
      More like tithe it all to the LDS.
      - bulletsvshumans 2y ago
        I wouldn’t expect more than 10%
  - kube-system 2y ago

rtkwe 2y ago

It's odd seeing the number of dismissive comments missing that there are whole categories of wheelchairs for different purposes. It's like asking why XPSs exist when there are Chromebooks, something most people commenting here would immediately realize as a silly question because they suit different needs and functions but the idea doesn't come up because it's an unfamiliar problem.

m463 2y ago
I sort of think of left-handed people. I am right handed, but overused it and switched to a left-handed mouse. There are basically infinity right-handed mice, but basically zero left-handed mice, most of which are hedged ambidextrous mice. so looking at office chairs and standing desks and all kinds of ergonomics oriented towards healthy sitting, it seems amazing that there isn't more competition for people who sit more than anyone.
- HPsquared 2y ago
  Sounds like a nice application for 3D printing tbh. Take the electronics from a regular mouse and fit into a left-handed housing with a range of shapes/sizes etc available! Call it "second hand"
  - Miraste 2y ago
    At least one guy on reddit did this and is still sending out the files for people who ask: https://old.reddit.com/r/MouseReview/comments/enxzgg/lefty_g305_project_choose_my_color_scheme/lo33h6y/?context=3 https://old.reddit.com/r/MouseReview/comments/enxzgg/lefty_g... It seems like a massive pain though. Rebuilding a non-symmetrical mouse the other way would take electronics tinkering as well as 3d printing, and probably a ton of work to get all the connections and tolerances right. I am left handed, and I use trackpads with my left hand, but I gave up on lefty mice years ago and use an ergonomic one right-handed.
    - HPsquared 2y ago
      I'd assume the electronics are very modular and probably just clip into place in a single unit. You do need a battery compartment or something though, and the buttons need to fit well. Wheel can come from donor mouse.

xnx 2y ago

Went down a bit of a rabbit hole and found this industry guide to Taiwanese contract bike manufacturers:http://www.wheelgiant.com.tw/ebook/flib/2024TBS_%E6%95%B4%E6%9C%AC/mobile/ http://www.wheelgiant.com.tw/ebook/flib/2024TBS_%E6%95%B4%E6... If there was enough demand, I'm betting some of the companies in here could make quality wheelchairs real cheap.

maxglute 2y ago
When bikeshare and scooter was gaining traction, I was hoping some manufacturer would look into collapsible electronic wheel chair for mass transportation. Maybe stupid, but think a few 100 million dollars and 1000s of engineer hours would make a pretty sweet slick wheel chair scooter for short commutes.
manquer 2y ago
> if there was enough demand I really hope there truly isn't in a real sense. Old and new wars being fought with anti personnel mine and seeing the numbers of young and fit men and women losing limbs to uncaring political goals is disheartening reminder there well might be.
fullstop 2y ago
There's a group of people in Australia who recycle bicycles into makeshift wheelchairs for people living in countries with inadequate healthcare. They pack flat and are assembled on-site. https://wheelchairtrust.org.au/ https://wheelchairtrust.org.au/
diebeforei485 2y ago
Each wheelchair is custom so it's totally different than other products.
- xnx 2y ago
  Is it totally different? Bikes are made and adjusted for a huge variety of body types. I understand there are different needs for wheel chair users, but I would think some level of adjustment would be possible to accommodate most of those.

changing1999 2y ago

I have no knowledge of this specific product area but wondering what aspect of the wheelchair in the photo results in this seemingly high cost? (to note, I understand that this is still far cheaper than other wheelchairs). Is it the material cost? It looks like it's just a few pipes, a cushion, and a pair of wheels. About the same build as a basic bicycle.

paulddraper 2y ago
First, have you purchased a bicycle? "High quality" bicycles start at $1,000. (quality dimensions = weight, comfort, durability, flexibility) Second, small scale manufacturing is expensive. Third, large-scale manufactured wheelchairs have the same problem as the rest of the medical equipment world: prices are subsidized/inflated by insurance.
- changing1999 2y ago
  I've only ever owned fairly cheap commuter bikes like Specialized. But even then, the quality and the comfort were OK. I guess in this case, small scale and configurability makes the biggest difference in wheelchairs vs bikes.
  - dghlsakjg 2y ago
    Wheelchair users spend their entire waking lives using wheelchairs, more or less. They are justifiably VERY particular about their mobility. If you had to spend all day, every day, riding a bike, and a failure meant that you would spend days or weeks (seriously, wheelchair repairs are SLOW), stuck in your house, how seriously would you take your bike options? A badly fit wheelchair can send disabled people to the hospital with really serious problems. Now imagine that bikes normally cost $5k-$20k. How stoked would you be to see someone offering an equivalent bike for $999?
bluGill 2y ago
Mostly the machines the factory uses. You can cut tubes by hand and drill those holes, but the machines are more accurate and faster. However those machines will cost you in the million range each in some cases. (the $1000 Chinese versions for home use are kits that will cost you $10k to make accurate and the quality means they will wear out fast so while find for building a couple they are more expensive than the million dollar machines in the long run) That investment needs to be amortized across whatever you build and wheelchairs are not high volume. You can't go with cheaper less flexible machines either because each wheelchair needs to be somewhat custom fit. That in turn means you need to the more expensive machines instead of simple jigs that. They also need someone to program the machines for your custom fit (or software to create that program)

ossobuco 2y ago

Or, what happens when you take greed and profit out of the equation.

jeanlucas 2y ago

Hah, now it makes more sense why Jerry was being so active on GoodTimesWithScar Twitter feed. Scar is also a wheelchair user, but is mostly famous for his YouTube landscaping videos. Nice to see this, Jerry is not just another YouTuber grifter, he's a maker and has been involved building for his wife for a while.

tredre3 2y ago
His name is Zack, not Jerry. I know, it's confusing.
- jeanlucas 2y ago
  Meh, lots of people call him Jerry for a while now. I know you're not aware because you're not a fan and just wants to one up on HN. He said already he chose Jerry in honor of his grandfather who was a fixer. On an interview with MKBHD (btw, I know MKBHD is not literally that guy's name) he said he just rolls with it when someone calls him Jerry.
  - tredre3 2y ago
    I know you're just trying to gotcha me, but as a fellow fan you probably already know that he prefers when people call him by his given name.
    - jeanlucas 2y ago
      https://www.youtube.com/shorts/eG4PZaf7QxY https://www.youtube.com/shorts/eG4PZaf7QxY

Waterluvian 2y ago

My former girlfriend gets powered wheelchairs through the Ontario Disability Support Program, and I witnessed and learned that the whole thing is such a fraud. Her powered chair was just over $20,000 and was a terrible piece of machinery. You were definitely not getting the "medical devices have to be reliable" premium. And any time the technician came out, we got a bill to forward to ODSP for thousands of dollars, even for the simplest fix. And of course there was zero competition: there was one and exactly one vendor you could go to for this stuff. They were, of course, terrible with customer service, terrible with technician competence, and their products were consistently terrible. I'm usually instantly skeptical of any tech startup that wants to airdrop into a problem space and disrupt things, but in this case, I'm 38,000% confident that there's something that can be done with this one.

badjoak 2y ago
You had to have cashflow to pay those bills and wait for a redund? Sounds terrifying.
- loufe 2y ago
  I have an Ontarian optometrist in the immediate family. I helped them set up a very tangled and innefficient ODSP claims process. It's a terribly, terribly managed program. I'm not sure if the OP has to pay and be reimbursed, but I wouldn't be surprised. That family member has to wait upwards of a year sometimes to be reimbursed, occaisionnaly they wait that much time only to be refused because of a "problem" which is not detailed anyways, so the business has to waste time to figure out problems. All the while, they are in the hole for that money.
- nick3443 2y ago
  Sounds like someone should make them available to lease
- Waterluvian 2y ago
  No, ODSP covered it. The vendor would basically have an outstanding balance on the account until ODSP sent them the money. Still had to send the paperwork in to get that all going.

agumonkey 2y ago

Are there open source community for all things biomedical devices ? even partial exoskeleton (not joking, looking for practical attempts to help elders)

cjbgkagh 2y ago
Most of this stuff is still a bit too expensive for DIY, Festool have an ExoActive exoskeleton that might be repurposable - though I think it's designed mostly for holding weight above the head. There is the 'body braid' that is probably more suited for the tasks that the elderly have trouble with.

modeless 2y ago

I just watched a factory tour of this yesterday: https://youtu.be/oBId9w7NgAQ https://youtu.be/oBId9w7NgAQ Seems like they are setting up a pretty fancy operation using their YouTube money. Pretty cool!

stevenseb 2y ago

[flagged]

hinkley 2y ago

It did not occur to me that wheelchairs are this expensive. But then again they make fewer of them than bicycles and a bicycle you want to be on hundreds of days a year can start at that price and go up into car prices.

UncleOxidant 2y ago

That's really cool. But I also notice that when I go to thrift stores in my area that there are often wheelchairs available for $25 or less. Similar for walkers and other mobility devices that tend to be really expensive new.

BanazirGalbasi 2y ago
This is why reading comments before contributing to the conversation is useful. There are already several comments outlining why a $25 wheelchair, especially a used one found at thrift stores, isn't comparable. Build quality, weight, fit, convenience, portability - all of these are reasons to spend more on a wheelchair. We don't question why different computers are more expensive than others even though they all do the same job. We don't question why one bike costs more than another despite using the same mechanism for propulsion. Wheelchairs are another good with varying levels of quality at different price points. It's arguably more important for quality goods to be accessible because for many, they're living in these things constantly.

basirulbillah 2y ago

1k for a wheelchair is unbelievable for me. In Bangladesh they cost about 7 to 9 thousands taka which is equivalent 60 to 100 USD. I don't understand.

loufe 2y ago
There are obvious COL differences between regions which can account for a huge part of that. There's a reason we lost our manufacturing base in the west to China. Are the chairs you're speaking of customized? Are they using the components of a similar quality? That may be a component, as well.
Suppafly 2y ago
>I don't understand. Almost completely different products.
diebeforei485 2y ago
Those are not custom (typically come pre-sized) and are generally not very usable outdoors to get around other than short distances. Sometimes known as "hospital wheelchairs". For people with temporary injuries who are mostly taking time off from work it's fine. This is a everyday wheelchair that people can use to get to somewhere a mile or two away and back, often used by people to get to work or around a university campus independently. It is custom made to your measurements: https://notawheelchair.com/pages/configurator https://notawheelchair.com/pages/configurator https://www.sammcintosh.com/blog/wheelchairtypes0620 https://www.sammcintosh.com/blog/wheelchairtypes0620
delfinom 2y ago
Those are shitty wheelchairs not meant for use by people permanently disabled by western standards. We have plenty of imported cheap wheelchairs on Amazon in the US. I mean sure you could use them, but they aren't customized to your body dimensions for life long comfort. They won't hold up to long term abuse actually going outside daily for life and work. In the west, we actually legally mandate buildings and transportation accommodate wheelchair users, so they can actually live like normal people. Heck they can also legally drive. Back to the wheelchair, the foundation of this $1k wheelchair which is bent aluminum instead of welded metal is a massive increase in reliability where a cheap chair could instead break a weld and leave someone stranded in the middle of nowhere.

amadeuspagel 2y ago

It's cool how they get both capital and distribution from their YouTube channel. Are there any other "real" business started from YouTube like this?

tills13 2y ago
for better or worse the entire Mr Beast empire and, to an extent, Logan Paul and his ventures (Prime, etc)
- ruune 2y ago
  These never made it further than "I'm buying this because I like MrBeast/Logan Paul/etc." at least as far as I can tell. These wheelchairs are supposed to become good enough that any regular disabled person that can't walk* will seriously consider them even without knowing who makes them. *English isn't my first language, no idea what a proper inoffensive way to describe the target audience is. I mean no harm :)
  - al_borland 2y ago
    I ordered a Beast Burger on Door Dash without having any clue it was a Mr Beast thing until it showed up and was heavily branded. I wanted a burger and figured I'd try something new. I had never really watched any Mr Beast videos at that point. For whatever reason, he is never recommended to me. The seasoning was so strong it was a bit hard to eat. I assumed it was covering up for lower quality meat or something. I have no desire to order one again.
    - huvarda 2y ago
      Mr Beast burgers werent even a real restaurant. Theyre just faceless ghost kitchens with a mrbeast sticker slapped on top.
      - al_borland 2y ago
        I’ve tried various things from ghost kitchens via Door Dash. Some are better than others. From the little I understand, someone like Beast Burger would come up with a recipe, then provide the supplies and recipes to the ghost kitchen to make it. If the ghost kitchen is really Chili’s, it’s not the Chili’s burger showing up when a Mr Beast label, it’s Chili’s Employees in the Chili’s kitchen, making the Beast Burger recipes.

double0jimb0 2y ago

Two passes around the holes with the laser will get rid of the rewelding issue.

nothercastle 2y ago

The BOM for this wheel chair is probably 200-300 of just wheels and bearings maybe more. People who say this can be bought for 200$ are completely out of touch. You can’t even buy a decent bike for much under a grad new and bikes have much better scale.

andybak 2y ago
My bike cost £75
- unreal6 2y ago
  was it new?
- r0fl 2y ago
  A decent bike for a child costs more than that these days in North America. You either bought this bike used, stolen, in 1989 or are trolling.
  - andybak 2y ago
    I bought it used. Why does that discount my statement?
  - geerlingguy 2y ago
    Even a cheap Walmart kids bike costs more than that now. (Even the toddler bikes are reaching up there in price.)
  - hug 2y ago
    This thread is bonkers. I'm not even American and it took me all of two minutes to find a bike for $118 USD (or about 90 GBP) available from Walmart. Here it is: https://www.walmart.com/ip/1121295 https://www.walmart.com/ip/1121295 It looks like a perfectly serviceable bike, if not the most amazing experience. I bet you with proper maintenance it could last you decades and thousands of miles. People in this thread who are claiming a new bike is nearly $1000 are on another planet. I get that this isn't a wheelchair, doesn't have anything to do with wheelchair prices, and I would certainly not want to rely on this thing in the way a wheelchair user must rely on their chair, but c'mon, guys, stop with the wild hyperbole about bike prices.

syntaxfree 2y ago

Resale value is important for wheelchairs. My dad had an electric one for about 8 months before he passed on, and the TCO was well under the price of all these alt concepts.

robocat 2y ago

Hopefully someone does the same thing for rollators (walking frames). I bought a few second-hand for my mum and they were all had disgustingly terrible usability. Brakes that didn't work properly (huge safety issue). Parts poking out (and flying brake-lines) that would catch on everything, or cause mum problems. One sharp bit at the wheels damaged the skin at her ankle and she couldn't do anything for weeks to recover. It was a very serious problem caused by thoughtless design. And we are in New Zealand which is better than many places. It is terrible watching people struggle in other countries (or lack access to the simplest requirement). Good usability is hard enough to find for the smart and strong. It is extremely hard to find for the weak and infirm. Especially when supplied through government services! Finding her a wheelchair was hard because she is tiny and needed a teen sized one. But everything available second-hand or through our social services was designed for heavier people with wide arses (imported chairs?). Luckily found a wheelchair manufacturer in my city that had one designed for a teen on special (end-of-line - not manufacturing standard wheelchairs any more - changing to focus on expensive specialist sports chairs).

xyst 2y ago

That’s a wholesome story. Hope the company stays employee owned for a long time. Seen too many companies which started like this but after exchanging a few hands (ie, ending up in the hands of grand children). It ends up getting scrapped for parts and sold to the highest bidder.

acyou 2y ago

If it pans out, looks like an OK way to get a backup chair. But we still need the mainstream way, which is the seating specialists and therapists to accurately spec, size and adjust the chair with the user in it. Curious if they will go get FDA approval, so that they can get the chair properly funded. I suspect that the same people who don't have health insurance also won't have $1000 lying around. If the chair is funded, they should be able to access a larger market and help more people going that route. For power wheelchairs, FDA application process is a huge reason they have limited competition and are so expensive. For those who love to wave their hands and cut red tape, I think it mostly has to do with people not dying because they are set on fire by power wheelchair battery fires, or getting crushed by their wheelchair actuators. I am just curious about this from a safety perspective. The FDA approval process covers a lot of ground. Who makes sure the chairs are safe? Who checks the pinch points? Who crash tests the transit tie downs? Who does fatigue testing? Who does tip-over testing? What happens if someone is using the chair and gets hurt due to a material or design flaw? Who makes sure the chair fits properly and users don't get repetitive stress injuries? Who tests the upholstery to make sure it is fire retardant? Who checks the chair with the user in it to make sure they have posture that doesn't lead to severe long term problems? I, for one, would not consider sidestepping FDA in order to ethically and legally answer for all of those risks. But despite all of that I admire the sentiment of this project, it certainly seems to be done with the best of intentions.

paledot 2y ago

Late to the party, but I just wanted to say how refreshing it is to see an accessibility-related post on HN that isn't about a bunch of able-bodied MIT undergrads winning awards from able-bodied judge panels for building a product that disabled people can't use to solve a problem that disabled people don't have. There is effectively zero overlap between problems that able-bodied people think that disabled people have, and problems that disabled people actually have.

codedokode 2y ago

As I understand, it doesn't even have a motor? Why cannot we have an electric wheelchair for everyone today? How do you climb uphill (or from an underground passage) without a motor? Also, I don't know anything bout wheelchairs but googling shows that there are Chinese electric wheelchairs below $1000 (don't know anything about their quality).

sterlind 2y ago
Traditional power chairs are much bigger and heavier than lightweight manual chairs. They're a nightmare to transport unless you have a custom van with an elevator. They also can't handle curbs. Ultralight manual chairs are often foldable, and light enough that you can transfer out of your chair into the driver's seat of a car, take the chair apart and put the pieces in the passenger's seat of a normal sedan. That level of independence is huge. Also, you can pop wheelies over curbs and other obstacles. Finally, pushing yourself keeps you in shape, since you miss out on the baseline exercise from walking. Otherwise you decondition and get weak and fragile. Power chairs are for those who can't push themselves sustainably. As many others have commented, every user's disability and body is unique. You're spending 16 hours a day in the chair. If it doesn't fit you, you'll get pressure sores or strain injuries. The cheap ones are for people who don't need to use them that much.
- roywiggins 2y ago
  Power-assist chairs are pretty neat though, I knew a guy who basically DIYed one, I think from a kit, starting with a manual chair. He could wheel for miles on it and keep in shape.
  - sterlind 2y ago
    Yeah, back when I needed a chair I used an ultralight with Yamaha power assist wheels. It was great - a little chonkier than a pure manual but I could go anywhere, plus I got to keep my VW Beetle instead of needing a $100k wheelchair van.
diebeforei485 2y ago

not_the_fda 2y ago

Quite frankly this is against the law. Wheelchairs are considered a class II medical device. Just because you are cheeky and say its "not a wheelchair", its still a wheelchair and is subject medical device regulation. A wheelchair can cause a sorts of harm if not designed properly and built of high quality.

patmcc 2y ago

This looks like a very cool project and I'm happy to see it. But please, to the author: give us some real price comparisons! I don't know how much a wheelchair costs. After reading this article, I still don't. Just be crystal clear and say "a simple manual wheelchair, approved by insurance, is often $4k, with $1k paid out of pocket" or whatever.

paledot 2y ago
You're in the right ballpark, though a good chair can easily get you into the 5 figures. Top-end is perhaps $20k.
volfonibros 2y ago
From their front page : "For more than three decades, New Mobility has published groundbreaking content for active wheelchair users." Fair from them to assume the (average) reader is familiar with the subject.

jojobas 2y ago

There electric bikes way under $1000, and allow frame bikes under $200. Just checked and there are $400 wheelchairs out there. How is a $1000 wheelchair an achievement?

nojvek 2y ago

Yessss! Made in America with humans and CNC robots. That’s the future we should be aiming for.

FpUser 2y ago

Nothing against a product (assuming it does not fall apart) but what I see should cost $200. This is what is fucking wrong with our Western World.

stevage 2y ago

I'm surprised there isn't some cheap option from China. There must be millions of wheelchair users around the world, it's a small market but it's not tiny.

sizzle 2y ago

Tapping into the collective wisdom of wheelchair enthusiasts of HN. What would you recommend for my parent, they are using a crappy Medicare approved Medline wheelchair that’s like $300 on Amazon. They can’t use their right side of their body really due to a stroke paralysis. They can wheel around with one arm and leg. The wheelchair is like starting to fall apart. What should I I get them that will last many years? Thanks!

skylurk 2y ago
I know nothing about wheelchairs, but have you considered one with a joystick?
diebeforei485 2y ago
There are a lot of variables. You can ask an occupational therapist about what sort of wheelchair would be best. If it's a case where they move themselves indoors but get pushed by others outdoors, it arguably does not matter. But if they are independent outside the home, you need a custom chair suited to them.

beej71 2y ago

Home crap. I thought at first this was advertising an expensive wheelchair. TIL.

pkphilip 2y ago

$1k for a manual wheelchair? and that is considered cheap? I have no idea why a wheelchair should be that expensive. We get them here in India for far less - you can buy pretty good wheelchairs for much less than $100. You can get powered wheelchairs for around $500. https://www.amazon.in/b/ref=dp_bc_aui_C_3?ie=UTF8&node=11365037031 https://www.amazon.in/b/ref=dp_bc_aui_C_3?ie=UTF8&node=11365...

650REDHAIR 2y ago
Those are not good wheelchairs for independent people to spend 16+ hours in. I work in EMS and see all kinds of "budget" wheelchairs and they'll all shit. The parts alone for this lightweight chair have to crack $300.
- pkphilip 2y ago
  [dead]
- asddubs 2y ago
  I don't doubt it, but just out of curiosity, could you elaborate the ways in which they're shit?
  - leghifla 2y ago
    see my earlier post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41721976 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41721976
- dfgsdfgwef 2y ago
  Wheelchair market is ripe for IKEA.
- srockets 2y ago
  Don't forget labor: welding lightweight, exotic materials requires a lot of experience, as every imperfection in the weld will lead to it cracking with time, which would be extremely dangerous.
2y ago

pjdesno 2y ago

Just wondering - why is it that a bunch of tech bros who would think nothing of spending $2-300 on some fancy-ass keyboard because it’s incrementally more comfortable to their fingertips than a $15 one from Microcenter think that a person doesn’t care about the quality of a wheelchair they’re going to be stuck in for all their waking hours?

elicash 2y ago
Given your wonder, you should consider checking out the article. They clearly care a lot about customizations and comfort.
roywiggins 2y ago
More to the point, why are a bunch of techies who are probably sitting on $3000 ergonomic office chairs wondering why a good wheelchair might cost a few thousand?
pentae 2y ago
Why are we assuming that this isn't a quality/comfortable wheelchair?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

perryizgr8 2y ago

$1000 is exorbitant for a non-motorised wheelchair. Here's [1] amazon.in offering a lot of options at ~$50. I bet these guys could import it from India and it wouldn't cost them more than $200. [1] https://www.amazon.in/s?k=wheelchair&crid=22DWLE90LFB7O&sprefix=wheelchai%2Caps%2C197&ref=nb_sb_ss_pltr-data-refreshed_1_9 https://www.amazon.in/s?k=wheelchair&crid=22DWLE90LFB7O&spre...

roywiggins 2y ago
How many ergonomic office chairs go for $50? Wheelchairs take several orders of magnitude more abuse and need to cope with several orders of magnitude more complex needs than your average office worker and your average nice ergonomic office chair is hardly cheap.
- perryizgr8 2y ago
  Ergonomic office chairs are a ridiculous rip off too.
delfinom 2y ago
Can you ask the Amazon seller how much it costs to custmoize the wheelchair to my specific dimensions? While you are at it, can you ask them how much it costs to make the frame out of a single piece of bent aluminum so there are no risks of welds snapping and leaving me stranded? You know in the west that wheelchair users actually go outside right? We legally mandate that buildings and transportation require accomodations for wheelchairs. People in wheelchairs even drive cars. Wheelchair users that are active need far better quality frames than "hospital wheelchairs" you can find for $50. And you can already buy these on Amazon.com US. There is no need to get into a game of trying to compete with the existing importers.

zaps 2y ago

Wheelchairs… engagement presents… it never ends!

jillesvangurp 2y ago

I just did a search for wheelchairs on the German version of Amazon. I'm not in the market but I was just curious. https://www.amazon.de/-/en/gp/bestsellers/drugstore/2860298031 https://www.amazon.de/-/en/gp/bestsellers/drugstore/28602980... There are lots of models with very reasonable prices and features; mostly well below 1000 euros. Including a few electric ones. Manual ones seem to be generally well below 500 euros. At 1000 euros we're talking some seriously tricked out models with all sorts of features that I'd probably want if I was in the market. I'd probably spend a bit more. And I'd be very surprised to not get support from my insurer for this. The model in the article pretty bare bones in comparison. Not just a little bit. Like really bare bones. I'm sure it's great and ergonomic and really good quality. But what's the real story here? Inept US manufacturing or corrupt US insurers? Or both? For reference, I just found a very reasonable looking electric wheelchair for 999 euros by a company called WISGING. With some 5 star reviews from buyers. In stock. Would arrive around 9 October if I ordered it now. 20km range, apparently. The stuff on Amazon looks like it comes mostly from China where they are probably producing these things in large volumes to provide affordable, decent wheel chairs for whomever needs them around the world. The world is bigger than the US and people use wheel chairs all over the place. The kind of pricing and quality cited in the article in the US would be completely unacceptable in most parts of the world. And never mind the shipping times. Is it not possible to simply import these things? I'm sure there are some tariffs to deal with but even so, what's stopping people here?

roywiggins 2y ago
it's funny seeing comments like this on the same website where people insist- not unreasonably- that buying $3k ergonomic office chairs and motorized sit-stand desks for office workers is a must. Why can't they sit on piled up packing pallets? It's much cheaper and still kind of chair-shaped.
- Netherland4TW 2y ago
  I don't believe the parent comment is saying people who need wheelchairs should get a cheaper worse option, they are pointing out that reasonable options in Germany exist for less than a grand whereas in the US, these reasonable options are borderline unaffordable

lofaszvanitt 2y ago

[flagged]

flower-giraffe 2y ago

There should be an IKEA for medical devices relying on scale to absorb design, testing and regulatory compliance. The AirPod hearing aid feature and other OTC hearing aids from headphone manufacturers demonstrate it’s possible to leverage modern consumer electronics improvements for devices with a higher engineering barrier to entry than a wheelchair. I think paying a premium for anything via insurance is detrimental to markets and only benefits bottom feeding bandits and deferring or deflecting the cost.

makeitdouble 2y ago
I'm really curious about the hearing aid feature, but haven't seen any review actually featuring a patient using it in a real world situation. I was assuming there would be pre FDA approval reviews, but doesn't seem to be the case. The older accessibility feature didn't seem to be that great, and I'm pretty eager to see how much it improves through the complete revamp of it before throwing money at it.

BaudouinVH 2y ago

Meanwhile in Europe, you can buy a wheelchair for 558 euros (about 620 USD). https://monfauteuilroulant.com/Fauteuils-Roulants/Fauteuil-roulant-standard https://monfauteuilroulant.com/Fauteuils-Roulants/Fauteuil-r...

ninalanyon 2y ago

In the UK you can buy a simple wheelchair for 132 GBP: https://www.uk-wheelchairs.co.uk/ugo-essential-self-propelled-wheelchair https://www.uk-wheelchairs.co.uk/ugo-essential-self-propelle... And what look like slightly fancier ones for between 300 and 500 GBP: https://www.millercare.co.uk/collections/self-propel-wheelchairs https://www.millercare.co.uk/collections/self-propel-wheelch... A magnesium alloy framed one is only 450 GBP: https://www.mobilitysmart.co.uk/magnelite-self-propelled-wheelchair.html https://www.mobilitysmart.co.uk/magnelite-self-propelled-whe... So what am I missing?

permo-w 2y ago
it seems to be similar with hearing aids. I recently saw a video explaining that the new airpods will be usable as hearing aids. the video went on to explain that this will make them great value for deaf people as hearing aids can run into the thousands of dollars. I just checked and you can get hearing aids in my country for less than $100. so what's going on? I'm guessing this is either a non-problem, i.e. the expenses are being exaggerated by competitors; or it's some kind of private healthcare thing where everything is insanely expensive because the government doesn't negotiate prices centrally
- tim333 2y ago
  My dad bought hearing aids that cost like £2000 (private, UK). The market here is kind of split between fairly mundane ones you can buy in shops for £100 or so (or free on the NHS) and fancy ones you get prescribed by an audiologist with computer sound processing that are more like £2000. My dad's never actually cracked his biggest problem which was if you are at a table with many people talking, picking out one conversation. It looks like the coming Apple AI may actually be able to do that. It's a hard problem technically.
  - pomatic 2y ago
    Actually, it isn't that hard a problem technically, you just need a directional mic. I'm deaf, I have NHS issued equipment, and I have a specific setting that makes the mics more directional. Additionally (slightly off topic for the reply, but perhaps of interest) I also have the option of using a discreet wireless mic about the size of a pencap that I can give to presenters or pass round the table. Again, NHS issued, for which I'm very grateful.

jimnotgym 2y ago

You can get a crappy wheelchair for £100 off ebay. The gap from crappy to decent seems very high!

whoitwas 2y ago

$1000 seems very expensive. But considering it's always being used, maybe not terrible.

GaryNumanVevo 2y ago

Mormons get it done!

ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago

I find the story of the company inspiring. As someone that Serves a small, rather shunned demographic, I applaud them. One difference, though, is that I am not competing with moneyed interests. They can play dirty.

wojo1206 2y ago

We live in IL, US. I just received wheelchair for my 3 year old son. We waited for this 9 months. This wheelchair has not any electronics or complex parts and, according to EOBs, costed our private insurance exactly: $18,212 (yes that is 18K! I just added this up and verified) after all deductions and discounts! After that, we received follow up call from the company that delivered the chair. We expressed our not satisfaction because we seen other wheelchairs that looked much more portable and sleek comparing to ours. I think the problem was that we were not provided with options at all. After which, they stopped communicating with us.

thomasfl 2y ago

Isn't this communism or socialism? I thought US citizens were allergic to socialism? That's the only reasonable explanation to why USA still has an archaic, super expensive private healthcare? "To be clear, Not a Wheelchair isn’t a nonprofit — it’s currently licensed as a benefit company, a newer designation of a for-profit company that provides a public service."

kqr2 2y ago

https://whirlwindwheelchair.org/ https://whirlwindwheelchair.org/ Professor Ralf Hotchkiss used to teach a course at SFSU on how to build wheelchairs.