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> chiefly by removing the artificial supply restrictions Building housing without restrictions gives you slums. Nice housing has lots of surrounding support -

> chiefly by removing the artificial supply restrictions Building housing without restrictions gives you slums. Nice housing has lots of surrounding support - electric, gas, water, sewage, Internet lines; schools, parks, swimming pools, transport, not to mention industry, retail, and employment. Half the reason for the restrictions is to ensure that new housing can be supported by the surrounding infrastructure. People who are comfortable living somewhere without the surrounding support are already free to purchase housing at much cheaper cost in rural areas. The problem isn't artificial restrictions, it's a country that can't build anymore, that can't get the inherent and necessary bureaucracy streamlined, quick, and responsive; that can't raise sufficient money for public works construction which has no immediate profit potential; that can't persuade its young men to enter the construction trades instead of going to college.

refulgentis 2y ago
These polemics are stirring and feel true. It's a purple prose version of east coast 2010s YIMBY. But they're not true. > it's a country that can't build anymore, See above. > that can't raise sufficient money for public works construction Infrastructure spending is at an all time high; massive $300B infrastructure package was passed a few years back. > which has no immediate profit potential What form of public works construction would have immediate profit potential? > that can't persuade its young men to enter the construction trades instead of going to college. Nah. Young men college graduates are consistently decreasing since 2020 for men. https://www.statista.com/statistics/184272/educational-attainment-of-college-diploma-or-higher-by-gender/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/184272/educational-attai... Construction has added ~1 million jobs since December 2020. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/USCONS https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/USCONS
worstspotgain 2y ago
Sorry, but these are pretty much some of the falsehoods that have been effective in fooling voters and putting the supply limits in place. The bureaucratic red tape is one of the artificial restrictions. Public works are impeded by the same mechanisms and for the exact same reason. People do go into the trades for the right salaries. Their salaries did rise. They are among the prices of goods that must be provided locally ("non-tradables") and are therefore determined by local rents. There are also union rules in many cities that require that only local labor be used - another one of said restrictions.
- solatic 2y ago
  > The bureaucratic red tape is one of the artificial restrictions. My point being that bureaucracy does not inherently need to be so bad as to be perceived from the outside as slow and inefficient. Chinese rail and construction were built while dealing with Chinese bureaucracy; yet, they were able to build much more, much faster, for much cheaper. The reasons why the bureaucracy are too slow usually boil down to some combination of: too many stakeholders with veto rights, stakeholders granted too much time to review, too many stages of review. Lots of these issues are emblematic of a lack of strategic direction at the public level, where coordination of all the elements needed for good-quality housing are set up for developers who are then sold charters for the actual construction and then public governance gets out of the way; instead of forcing developers to come up with all the elements themselves and overcome all the stakeholder vetos. > People do go into the trades for the right salaries. Their salaries did rise. And with the rise in compensation, so did the cost of construction (because "non-tradeable", but I disagree that it is inevitable as such, because labor can be imported) and therefore the cost of housing. Net loss. Like it or not, affordable goods and services are usually built on the backs of cheap labor; leadership can decide to either import labor or build cultures that glorify labor, American leadership (outside of agriculture) largely decided to sit on its hands and do neither, with large compensation rises (and concurrent cost rises) as a result. Where labor is neither imported, glorified, nor adequately compensated, there are currently major hiring crises in America, specifically teaching and policing.
  - worstspotgain 2y ago
    > My point being that bureaucracy does not inherently need to be so bad Indeed, and my point is that it's this bad on purpose. The nominal reasons are the ones you listed and more, but they're just a front. > And with the rise in compensation, so did the cost of construction (because "non-tradeable", but I disagree that it is inevitable as such, because labor can be imported) and therefore the cost of housing This is pretty much exactly what I wrote, minus the fact that it's non-tradable because of another restriction. Here's how it works algebraically. Let C_x be the coefficient for the amount spent on x by consumers and P_x by producers: Rent = RentTrueCost * RentOverpriceFactor LocalSalary = Rent * C_Rent + TradablesPrice * C_Tradables + NonTradablesPrice * C_NonTradables NonTradablesPrice = TradablesPrice * P_Tradables + NonTradablesPrice * P_NonTradables + LocalSalary * P_Salary => NonTradablesPrice = (TradablesPrice * (P_Tradables + C_Tradables * P_Salary) + RentTrueCost * RentOverpriceFactor * C_Rent * P_Salary) / (1 - P_NonTradables - C_NonTradables * P_Salary) Notice the "zooming effect" from P_NonTradables and C_NonTradables. The more local producers and consumers rely on non-tradable goods and services, the bigger the increase in local prices resulting from a small increase in RentOverpriceFactor. That's because the supply chain has to pay the "rent tax" at every step. From the carpenter, to the carpenter's waiter at the diner, to the carpenters that built the diner and the waiter's house, etc.
rustcleaner 2y ago
Ensure mixed zoning to reduce car and transit dependence, but also ensure every 1+ br apartment gets 2-3 parking spots to fight against the creep of European cycle-philic anticar building practices.
- Aeolun 2y ago
  That’s absurd. Why would a 1 br apartment need 2-3 parking spots? That creates a car centric city by default. If there’s no dangerous cars around, and everything is close by, you don’t need more than a bike, and therefore no parking spots.
  - worstspotgain 2y ago
    I'll agree on no parking, but only because the future is the transit agency-owned robo-taxi. There you have it, 3 people, 4 opinions. If only the housing cartel was 1/10th as disorganized.
    - Aeolun 2y ago
      I mean, I have no stake in this game. I live in Tokyo where we already have everything I described. If people like the way their country works I’m all for it, I’ll just never stop evangelizing the opposite when they complain they don’t have enough housing. It’d be nice if someone figured out how to do the same with houses that are 2x bigger though.
polfj 2y ago
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refulgentis 2y ago

These polemics are stirring and feel true. It's a purple prose version of east coast 2010s YIMBY. But they're not true. > it's a country that can't build anymore, See above. > that can't raise sufficient money for public works construction Infrastructure spending is at an all time high; massive $300B infrastructure package was passed a few years back. > which has no immediate profit potential What form of public works construction would have immediate profit potential? > that can't persuade its young men to enter the construction trades instead of going to college. Nah. Young men college graduates are consistently decreasing since 2020 for men. https://www.statista.com/statistics/184272/educational-attainment-of-college-diploma-or-higher-by-gender/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/184272/educational-attai... Construction has added ~1 million jobs since December 2020. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/USCONS https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/USCONS

worstspotgain 2y ago

Sorry, but these are pretty much some of the falsehoods that have been effective in fooling voters and putting the supply limits in place. The bureaucratic red tape is one of the artificial restrictions. Public works are impeded by the same mechanisms and for the exact same reason. People do go into the trades for the right salaries. Their salaries did rise. They are among the prices of goods that must be provided locally ("non-tradables") and are therefore determined by local rents. There are also union rules in many cities that require that only local labor be used - another one of said restrictions.

solatic 2y ago
> The bureaucratic red tape is one of the artificial restrictions. My point being that bureaucracy does not inherently need to be so bad as to be perceived from the outside as slow and inefficient. Chinese rail and construction were built while dealing with Chinese bureaucracy; yet, they were able to build much more, much faster, for much cheaper. The reasons why the bureaucracy are too slow usually boil down to some combination of: too many stakeholders with veto rights, stakeholders granted too much time to review, too many stages of review. Lots of these issues are emblematic of a lack of strategic direction at the public level, where coordination of all the elements needed for good-quality housing are set up for developers who are then sold charters for the actual construction and then public governance gets out of the way; instead of forcing developers to come up with all the elements themselves and overcome all the stakeholder vetos. > People do go into the trades for the right salaries. Their salaries did rise. And with the rise in compensation, so did the cost of construction (because "non-tradeable", but I disagree that it is inevitable as such, because labor can be imported) and therefore the cost of housing. Net loss. Like it or not, affordable goods and services are usually built on the backs of cheap labor; leadership can decide to either import labor or build cultures that glorify labor, American leadership (outside of agriculture) largely decided to sit on its hands and do neither, with large compensation rises (and concurrent cost rises) as a result. Where labor is neither imported, glorified, nor adequately compensated, there are currently major hiring crises in America, specifically teaching and policing.
- worstspotgain 2y ago
  > My point being that bureaucracy does not inherently need to be so bad Indeed, and my point is that it's this bad on purpose. The nominal reasons are the ones you listed and more, but they're just a front. > And with the rise in compensation, so did the cost of construction (because "non-tradeable", but I disagree that it is inevitable as such, because labor can be imported) and therefore the cost of housing This is pretty much exactly what I wrote, minus the fact that it's non-tradable because of another restriction. Here's how it works algebraically. Let C_x be the coefficient for the amount spent on x by consumers and P_x by producers: Rent = RentTrueCost * RentOverpriceFactor LocalSalary = Rent * C_Rent + TradablesPrice * C_Tradables + NonTradablesPrice * C_NonTradables NonTradablesPrice = TradablesPrice * P_Tradables + NonTradablesPrice * P_NonTradables + LocalSalary * P_Salary => NonTradablesPrice = (TradablesPrice * (P_Tradables + C_Tradables * P_Salary) + RentTrueCost * RentOverpriceFactor * C_Rent * P_Salary) / (1 - P_NonTradables - C_NonTradables * P_Salary) Notice the "zooming effect" from P_NonTradables and C_NonTradables. The more local producers and consumers rely on non-tradable goods and services, the bigger the increase in local prices resulting from a small increase in RentOverpriceFactor. That's because the supply chain has to pay the "rent tax" at every step. From the carpenter, to the carpenter's waiter at the diner, to the carpenters that built the diner and the waiter's house, etc.

rustcleaner 2y ago

Ensure mixed zoning to reduce car and transit dependence, but also ensure every 1+ br apartment gets 2-3 parking spots to fight against the creep of European cycle-philic anticar building practices.

Aeolun 2y ago
That’s absurd. Why would a 1 br apartment need 2-3 parking spots? That creates a car centric city by default. If there’s no dangerous cars around, and everything is close by, you don’t need more than a bike, and therefore no parking spots.
- worstspotgain 2y ago
  I'll agree on no parking, but only because the future is the transit agency-owned robo-taxi. There you have it, 3 people, 4 opinions. If only the housing cartel was 1/10th as disorganized.
  - Aeolun 2y ago
    I mean, I have no stake in this game. I live in Tokyo where we already have everything I described. If people like the way their country works I’m all for it, I’ll just never stop evangelizing the opposite when they complain they don’t have enough housing. It’d be nice if someone figured out how to do the same with houses that are 2x bigger though.

polfj 2y ago

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