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Europe's Banks Launch Wero Payments to Dislodge Visa, Mastercard
- _zoltan_ 2y agoaccording to their website, 80% of retail banking in Belgium, France and Germany... for me that's far from Europe.
- s_dev 2y agoFrance and Germany alone are 40% of the EU economy and both have huge political influence on the EU. I wouldn't expect any nascent tech to be adopted by the entire EU any time soon but this is nice to see.
- attendant3446 2y agoAdopted on paper - likely. Adopted in the real world - unlikely. Just look at many other EU-wide initiatives.
- nomercy400 2y agoWero is based on the Dutch IDEAL system. Because the Dutch already have a good system, they are not joining right away, but at a later time.
- crote 2y agoThe most baffling part of it is that at first glance it seems nothing like the Dutch IDEAL system. The IDEAL system is a replacement for online C2B payments. Rather than entering an incredibly insecure credit card number, the storefront redirects you to your bank, where you safely log in, confirm payment, and get redirected back to the store. It's essentially OAuth for payment. The only annoying part is having to manually select your bank, but even that is now a non-issue with a single unified QR code you can scan in any mobile banking app. On the other hand, https://wero-wallet.eu/ https://wero-wallet.eu/ tells me that Wero is a C2C system, so basically an alternative to Paypal, Venmo, Tikkie, or all the bank-initiated payment request implementations we've seen pop up over the last few years. You can send and receive money via your mobile phone number. So how is this supposed to be like IDEAL? Reading the FAQs it feels like nothing more than a strictly-worse version of Tikkie, but potentially with an added attack vector for your bank account. In other words, I see very little reason to switch to it.
- fakedang 2y agoThere are countries in the EU which don't even use the Euro, but that doesn't stop business from happening, does it? Imo, you only need France, NL, Italy and Germany. Maybe Sweden, Spain, Poland and Austria too. Then you've got enough of a market economy to justify needing a separate card processor. I'm surprised they haven't gotten into this earlier. But then again, it's the EU, they're laggards through and through.
- bdjsiqoocwk 2y agoThis is where most things in the EU start, including the EU itself.
- helsinkiandrew 2y agohttps://archive.ph/TBKpM https://archive.ph/TBKpM
- bdauvergne 2y agoWith SEPA framework Europe does not need any payment card processor anymore, you can settle any payment with instant and free wire transfer through the eurozone. It's not only the bank that are coming after Visa and Mastercard, it's the eurozone.
- thekoma 2y agoI’ve never had a free SEPA transfer. Where is that a thing?
- z3n0n 2y agoLiterally every bank to bank transfer in Europe? Edit: apparently there are some complexities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area (sees Charges) but personally I've never paid a single cent either
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- berdario 2y agoYeah, it's a bit of a mess. https://wise.com/help/articles/2956754/what-are-sepa-transfers https://wise.com/help/articles/2956754/what-are-sepa-transfe... > However, while banks shouldn’t charge for receiving SEPA payments, unfortunately there is a very small number that may still do so. I can also confirm for example that (despite the UK still being in SEPA), wire transfers of Euro from Unicredit in Italy are getting extra charges when sent to a british IBAN (Unicredit is charging the sending side).
- calmoo 2y agoIt’s like the main feature of a SEPA transfer, is that it’s free.
- MaBu 2y agoIt was never free or instant. It only works from 9-15 on workdays and not on weekends. Also if there are holidays in eu also doesn't work for domestic transfers. Easter is fun whe it stops for 4 days even though country has only 3 state holidays during those times. Costs from 25-40 cents per domestic transaction or 7-17 euro per over border one. Depending on the bank. It takes around an hour or some days over border for transfer to go through. Maybe you think of sepa instant which is supported by some banks. Very new. Mostly used for people to people transfers. Some shops are starting to support it. It is actually instantaneous anc works weekends. It seems to be mostly free.
- cwillu 2y agoMildly amused that where the US is suing Visa for being a monopoly, it's the EU that's actually standing up a viable competitor for the problematic sector.
- linotype 2y agoThey’re certainly going to try.
- zokier 2y agoUS got Venmo(/paypal) though
- varjag 2y agoMany if not most European countries also have their respective payment apps.
- 4ggr0 2y agoone example of a small european country is Switzerland, where a big part of the population uses TWINT. I can instantly send money to my friends, split bills, pay parking tickets etc. Most big banks have their own TWINT apps, so that you don't even have to use it as a prepaid solution and it's instead directly linked to your bank account. no idea if that's also how venmo/cashapp works.
- varjag 2y agoYeah there's Vipps in Norway, Swish in Sweden and I imagine something similar anywhere else. The market demand is too enormous to not be fulfilled by 2024.
- polotics 2y ago...and BLIK in Poland, 19 banks, not bad... https://www.blik.com/en https://www.blik.com/en instead of building something brand new the EU should just pick these existing ones and get them to implement compatibility...
- miohtama 2y agoLike always, as the problem is so obvious, the interesting question is why it has not been solved yet ("US neutral global payment alternative for Visa/Mastercard"). There are three problems - Hometurf competition - Politics - Technical skill But in the case of the EU it is mostly the first. All "local" (read: national) banks have created their own payment standards to compete with Visa/Mastercard. Everyone wants their standard to be adopted, instead of the competitor bank alternatives. Then there is rollout. Banks are very traditional organisations and cannot think startups how to get adoption. They want adoption through regulation "force everyone to use our system." They cannot get natural adoption. If you want adoption, make system open as possible, take a page from Linux playbook. Give open source terminals and libraries to everyone and you will have adoption. As discussed in Hacker News before, there are also reasons why the EU lacks top software development skill, which is currently naturally attracted to the US. Not as an individuals, you still get top EU programmers, but as a geographic. This is due to software engineer not being prestigious job in many EU countries. The step further for this is open ledger, which comes to politics. Even in the EU we are worried that if someone runs this system, the "evil" countries like Hungary will exploit it, suck in all your personal data and sell to Russians. Only if there were credible neutral open digital ledger.
- ben_w 2y agoN26 (Berlin), Revolut (London), and Trade Republic (Berlin) are all fintech startups based in Europe (Europe != EU, as per North America != USA). This story is mainly about the EU, but the UK was a non-trivial part of the EU tech scene before Brexit and Revolut was part of that scene and has offices in Lithuania and got a proper bank license in the EU three years before it got one in the UK. > The step further for this is open ledger, which comes to politics. Even in the EU we are worried that if someone runs this system, the "evil" countries like Hungary will exploit it, suck in all your personal data and sell to Russians. One or two problems there, depending on how you split them: 1) To avoid your data being sold to the Russians, you'll give it away for free? 2) The very fact that bank ledgers are not open, prevents one country — Hungary in your example — from having access to all of them.
- benterix 2y ago> "evil" countries like Hungary Governments, not countries. Hungary is a country like any other, it got a crazy power-hungry leader and just like all authoritarians he is right-leaning and Putin-friendly. But the whole country is not like that, and sooner or later this shit-show will end.
- yapyap 2y agoLovely initiative, really. But they need to change that name, Wero sounds lame.
- bux93 2y agoThis is coming on the heels of many 'domestic schemes' being deprecated. For example, in The Netherlands, all Maestro cards are being replace by Mastercard debit and Visa debit. The benefit is that bank cards will now work seamlessly internationally. There's no technical reason why Maestro cards couldn't work internationally (and in fact, Brazil was also using Maestro), as it's just a subscheme of Mastercard, which itself conforms with EMV standards. The E- of EMV stands for 'Europay', a defunct european payment scheme. The EMV standard is mandated in Europe, precisely to ensure competition of new multi-country schemes is possible, so this is a return to form.
- soco 2y agoIf I understand it correctly, Wero is based on the new SCT Insta scheme presented (and discussed here) earlier this year. And it should be compatible with (some of) the existing national schemes, right? Or at least that's what I understand...
- techpression 2y agoIt sounds good in theory, seeing it Sweden any time soon seems unlikely since our banks got together to do their own thing a long time ago, but we’ll see. However, I would like to have a word with whoever was responsible for their website (https://wero-wallet.eu https://wero-wallet.eu), it looks like they’re pushing galaxy gas to kids… not everything has to be overly branded, especially not finance.
- nine_k 2y agoThe web site has a great design, reminiscent of both comic books and fast-food menus. High contrast, legible if quirky fonts, all this should contribute to a mass appeal. (Edit: typos)
- bryanrasmussen 2y agoI don't like the fonts, maybe quirky is not good for finance.
- nine_k 2y agoYes, IMHO, the idea that it's not the high-brow, high-ceremony, high-stakes finance is an important part of the message. "Look, it's a simple daily tool, a degree in accounting is not required."
- techpression 2y agoI think you can do it a lot better, the Swedish equivalent of sorts for example succeeds a lot better imo (https://www.swish.nu https://www.swish.nu)
- nine_k 2y agoNice and clean. The standard corporate palette of black on white with blue accents. Looks like so many others though, and lacks the fast food vibes which usually involve warm tones from yellow to red. Open bk.com or mcdonalds.com to understand what I mean.
- openrisk 2y agoThere seems no mention of what they plan to do with the "credit" part of a credit card?
- pjc50 2y agoThis is a payments system (debit card). Slightly different but more popular in debt-averse countries like Germany.
- newaccount74 2y agoMost people in Europe don't rely on credit card debt. We buy stuff only if we have the money in our bank account. And if we don't, we just overdraft our accounts. 20 years ago, credit cards were a thing that mostly people who travelled a lot had. Then people got credit cards so they could buy stuff online, but a few years ago debit mastercard / visa replaced maestro, and we no longer need credit cards for online shopping. So people stopped getting credit cards.
- zokier 2y agoThere are many of these new mobile payment thingies in the EU, the big question is are we going to get any interoperability between them?
- benterix 2y agoI f you live in one country mainly, it shouldn't be a problem - you just use whatever mobile payment scheme is the most popular there. When you travel, you still need an interoperable option - also because many mundane tasks like renting a car or booking a hotel typically require a card rather than just a payment. It will take decades for this to change.
- unixhero 2y agoIn the Nordics we have VIPPS
- spurgu 2y agoWhich merged with MobilePay. Side note: I stopped using it (in Finland) in the beginning of the year when they launched their new app that exposed users full names (including middle names). On the old MobilePay you were able to set an alias. "For our safety" of course.
- unixhero 2y agoConsolidation, it's all VIPPS now. Owned by DNB.
- Dibby053 2y agoFrom the title I thought this would be an European UnionPay, but it's just another European Zelle.
- bdjsiqoocwk 2y agoWhat's the difference between UnionPay and Zelle?
- diggan 2y ago> Visa and Mastercard moved swiftly to suspend their operations, preventing overseas payments by Russian cardholders and halting foreigners from making transactions on Russian soil. > Russia’s central bank, ready for this sort of crisis, had previously created the National Payment Card System to process transactions domestically, even if the cards carried a Visa or Mastercard logo. This workaround meant consumers could continue to make payments locally after the invasion. Not knowing much about how Visa/MC works internally, how is this technically possible? I thought both companies had most of the control over their networks, and if Visa/MC says "Charge rejected", then that's the outcome. But here it seems like the Central Bank was able to still be able to process the cards at least domestically, but unclear exactly how.
- Beretta_Vexee 2y agoIt's just an attempt to extend Paylib, initiated by BNP Parisbas. Paylib is an attempt to compete with Apple Pay, Google Pay and Samsung Pay with a 100% European solution. But Paylib sucks. They came late to the market. Enrolment is difficult (you need account numbers and have to wait two days for validation). Payment is random and can take several days to announce that the recipient doesn't have Paylib or that their bank isn't a member. There are very few partners. Paylib has been used a lot for scams. In contrast, Lydia (which was recently renamed sumeria), another French neobank initiative, is excellent. They started out as an online money pot service 13 years ago. Then they became a neobank. Registration is super simple and quick (scan you ID and the account is open in hours). They are compatible with google pay and amazon pay. They have a very effective instant transfer system with confirmation of receipt, payment by QR code, etc.. the fact that it's a separate account and confirmation requests are made on both sides, or even a physical check via a QR code, greatly limits scam attempts. I paid for beers in a bar run by punks with it. That's the level of acceptability. Wero comes too late, will probably be rubbish and will only concern a few large Western European banks.
- whazor 2y agoEPI tookover iDEAL, which is a really good payment service launched in 2006. The premise of European payment system is that consumers are protected via law and payments are dirt cheap. While Stripe charges in USA charges 2.9% + 0.30$ per payment, an iDEAL payment (with Stripe) costs only €0.29, that's it. For a television of 1000$, that is hefty 29.30$ payment fee. Since Wero will be EU wide, it is cheaper to integrate for web shops. Why go to Stripe/Adyen if with a single integration you can get the entire European Union? Don't worry, the adoption will be there.
- Beretta_Vexee 2y agoI don't see anything on the Wero and ETI websites to suggest that WERO is a replacement for Stripe, Paypal or any other payment intermediary. On all the French sites, what comes across is ‘Wero replaces Paylib for payments between friends’. For money transfers between individuals you know, there are already better solutions, including immediate SEPA wire transfers, Paypal and Sumeria. The question of transferring money to a stranger or to a business, whether by contactless phone payment or a QR code, remains unanswered.
- jacknews 2y ago'Wero'? how is it pronounced, like 'weirdo'?
- dustypotato 2y agoSounds good all around, the only thing that bothers me is that I will have to give my phone number to recieve a payment ? You can set an alias even in PayPal
- kkfx 2y agoI still RANT that we have OpenBank by law since 2017: there is no damn reasons not to open it to final customers. We could then pay via SDD (SEPA Direct Debt) everywhere, and we could manage all our transactions LOCALLY with signed XML or JSON and collecting signed-pdf-rendered tickets and invoices as well. Here (France) some supermarket have started around an year ago to offer no-print-ticket option to get the ticket by mail if you give them one or if you have an account to download from their websites, in eIDAS we have the certified mail concept (by laws in some countries like Italy, since more than a decade) for official formal communications. There is no need to add another broker/PSP to the list, it's about time to CUT the list.