7 ms·

There is no place for the death penalty in a civilized country!

louwrentius 2y ago
To me the definition of a 'civilized society' is an absence of the death penalty. Many people are also very confused about the justice system in America. It isn't about determining the truth. It's about trying to get you convicted, to advance the career of the prosecutor. In that sense, the 'justice department' is anything but. The 'innocence project[0]' has shown time and time again that truth finding isn't the goal. In the mean time, study after study shows that the death penalty doesn't deter people from crime and it's much more expensive than long prison sentences. However, a strong reason not to execute people, is acknowledging that the 'justice system' is made of people who can make mistakes and that we can never be that certain. Instating the death penalty shows a lack of humility and shows that it's absolutism is mostly for political gain. It scores with more authoritarian inclined voters who like 'simple solutions' and ignore all the complicated context. [0]: https://innocenceproject.org https://innocenceproject.org
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
nomilk 2y ago
<thought experiment> Suppose we lived in a world where it was possible to know someone's guilt or innocence with strictly 100% confidence. Curious to know if your views would change? Note the cost of incarceration is around ~$70k/year; enough to save lives, house people, heal people, feed people etc if put to other uses.
- atoav 2y ago
  You assume that the laws are flawless. They are not. It is hard to un-kill a person if you realize a law was bogus. The first law I would introduce would be that the death sentance only applies to people who demanded it publically before.
- StockHuman 2y ago
  In such a world (which is, by any means likely ever to be available, impossible), we’d still run against the issue that the state has the authority to kill people. This world would also have to be free of political corruption, and be so politically stable that what constitutes a crime worthy of the death penalty could never change.
- rwmj 2y ago
  If I could fly by flapping my arms, I wouldn't need airplanes.
- aqme28 2y ago
  What’s the point of this analogy? We can’t know 100% so it doesn’t matter.
  - tempfile 2y ago
    The point is to distinguish between an act that is immoral in and of itself and one that is immoral because we aren't sufficiently smart/honorable/efficient. This informs the argument - in the latter case killing could be permissible if only we become more advanced - in the former case it would never be permissible.
- gizajob 2y ago
  If murder is illegal, then it makes no difference if the state does it as punishment for committing murder. You’ve still sanctioned a murder, admittedly of a murderer. A civilised country accepts this simple logic and doesn’t sanction murder under any circumstances.
  - nicolas_t 2y ago
    In that case, would a civilised country have a military? Any military operations is state sanctioned killings.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - bbor 2y ago
    I love the moral direction, but this sadly doesn’t hold up to philosophical scrutiny. Is it murder to 1. Kill someone who’s about to kill someone? 2. Kill someone in a defensive war to defend your freedoms? 3. Kill someone by prioritizing things other than their medical care, eg in hospice? 4. Kill someone by letting them smoke/drink/overeat? 5. Kill someone by letting them starve? If you want to say that no country is civilized yet then hey I’m with ya. Otherwise, it’s not quite so simple. The death penalty is a tragic injustice, I agree, but just saying “it’s murder” is not a serious engagement with the issue IMO.
  - tempfile 2y ago
    No. Murder is not the same as killing, just like not all taking is stealing. Even the most civilised society imaginable admits that killing is sometimes acceptable (in self defense, for example). Killing done by the state is trivially not murder by definition, and less trivially there are justifications you can argue about. But you have to argue about it, your "simple logic" is unfortunately too simple.
    - gizajob 2y ago
      You're right that it is too simple, but it's an easy rule of thumb with which to think about and frame the problem. If it's illegal to kill a human being, then it's illegal. The existence of a death penalty where the state is able to do it in certain cases, as in the main case where someone themselves has broken the rule and murdered, for me, still does not justify any kind of legalistic justification for sanctioning they be killed. While "the state" is this abstract entity formed by all of us, the state has to act through people, who then have to be involved in taking a life. The state's premeditation of the killing of the murderer is even more premeditated and drawn out form of murder. It's easy to be blinded by the language used around this towards what is happening. I believe even further that if the state is allowed to do it, it opens a loophole in thought that could actually cause more murders to happen, because if the state can do it, then maybe I'll do it too...
- colinb 2y ago
  Here’s another thought experiment. We have ample evidence that the death penalty hasn’t made America safe from murder. But we don’t know if it has deterrence value for lesser crimes. I propose death by hanging for repeat littering and speeding near a school. I bet that’d be effective.
  - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
    Hanging? Why not shoot on sight, like the second amendment absolutionists/extremists think is the way to go?
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    > We have ample evidence that the death penalty hasn’t made America safe from murder. But we don’t know if it has deterrence value for lesser crimes. You seem to be suggesting that because murders still happen, we know the death penalty has no deterrence value? That's not how deterrence works.
- SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
  Even if we had 100% certainty what crimes are 100% worth death? Not even that is simple. If you want to consider cost, it costs literal millions to execute someone.
  - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
    Plus what of the potential profit? The guilty person could be a teenager making a silly mistake who could grow up to become the next Einstein. Insert Bill Gates' mugshot here, who is responsible for hundreds of thousands of jobs and bringing billions into the US / worldwide economy. But he was guilty and it would probably have been better to execute him because what if he did something else wrong?
    - sparrish 2y ago
      They don't give the death penalty to teenagers making 'silly mistake's. It's a sentence not handed out without weighty thought and only to those who knowingly and intentionally take life. I'm so tired of the "next Einstein" pithy replies. These are adults who have done heinous crimes against innocent people. Justice requires severe consequences.
- spacechild1 2y ago
  > Curious to know if your views would change? It wouldn't. There are cases where we do know someone's guilt with 100% confidence, but in my country we still don't execute them.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  Guilt or innocence is irrellevant to the discussion about whether the death penalty is justified though, for several reasons; it's binary thinking (there's a right and a wrong, there's good and bad people); it's dehumanizing (a bad person is forever bad and will forever be a burden to society); it's reductionist (a prisoner unit costs X per year at no benefit to society), etc. I don't know enough philosophy to list everything wrong with this premise. Think hard about why someone commits a crime. What is their background, their circustances, and what would have prevented it from happenign. Then think about what you think the purpose is of a sentencing? Is it for revenge, revalidation, setting an example, or removing undesireables from society (temporarily, indefinitely, or permanently)?
  - SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
    > Think hard about why someone commits a crime. What is their background, their circustances, and what would have prevented it from happenign. I think that the kind of crimes which lead to a death sentence happen because the perpetrator is a bad person who likes to hurt others. There's no "background" or "circumstances" that would make you break into a woman's house and stab her to death - to do such a thing, you have to either not know or not care that it's wrong. That doesn't by itself prove that the death penalty is right, or even that people who commit these kind of murders can never be rehabilitated. But it's really disturbing to me how often people whitewash the specific crimes death row inmates are accused of, as though we're all a couple missed paychecks away from randomly murdering people.
- dpkirchner 2y ago
  Suppose we could see everything that happened in the past, perfectly, and see in to the minds of everyone. We could save dollars!
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
ctxc 2y ago
I believe there are heinous crimes that do. Both fitting the crime and as a deterrent.
- bmicraft 2y ago
  > as a deterrent Do you have any sources supporting the claim that does actually deter anybody?
- tristan957 2y ago
  The US has more violent crime than other Western countries, so as a deterrent, it does not work. Perhaps instead of wasting money on death penalty appeals and killing innocent people, we should think about how we as a country can overhaul the prison system and our societal structures.
  - IncreasePosts 2y ago
    That logic doesn't follow, because it could be the case that America would be even more violent if we didn't execute people. Having said that, I find the deterrence angle suspect. Very few people would consider spending the rest of their life in jail acceptable, but being put to death unacceptable.
  - dawnerd 2y ago
    For profit prisons are not helping anything. They have zero interest in rehab and reformation - and unfortunately a lot of people in the states and beyond believe once you're a criminal you're tarnished forever.
  - mercutio2 2y ago
    It's extremely difficult to compare crime statistics that don't involve death. There's under reporting right and left, and there are classification problems. With that said, I don't think it's true that the US has, per capita, significantly more violent crime than the median Western country. What we have is a LOT more guns, which increase the probability that our violent crime becomes lethal. We DO have vastly more incarceration than most other countries, though.

To me the definition of a 'civilized society' is an absence of the death penalty. Many people are also very confused about the justice system in America. It isn't about determining the truth. It's about trying to get you convicted, to advance the career of the prosecutor. In that sense, the 'justice department' is anything but. The 'innocence project[0]' has shown time and time again that truth finding isn't the goal. In the mean time, study after study shows that the death penalty doesn't deter people from crime and it's much more expensive than long prison sentences. However, a strong reason not to execute people, is acknowledging that the 'justice system' is made of people who can make mistakes and that we can never be that certain. Instating the death penalty shows a lack of humility and shows that it's absolutism is mostly for political gain. It scores with more authoritarian inclined voters who like 'simple solutions' and ignore all the complicated context. [0]: https://innocenceproject.org https://innocenceproject.org

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

nomilk 2y ago

<thought experiment> Suppose we lived in a world where it was possible to know someone's guilt or innocence with strictly 100% confidence. Curious to know if your views would change? Note the cost of incarceration is around ~$70k/year; enough to save lives, house people, heal people, feed people etc if put to other uses.

atoav 2y ago
You assume that the laws are flawless. They are not. It is hard to un-kill a person if you realize a law was bogus. The first law I would introduce would be that the death sentance only applies to people who demanded it publically before.
StockHuman 2y ago
In such a world (which is, by any means likely ever to be available, impossible), we’d still run against the issue that the state has the authority to kill people. This world would also have to be free of political corruption, and be so politically stable that what constitutes a crime worthy of the death penalty could never change.
rwmj 2y ago
If I could fly by flapping my arms, I wouldn't need airplanes.
aqme28 2y ago
What’s the point of this analogy? We can’t know 100% so it doesn’t matter.
- tempfile 2y ago
  The point is to distinguish between an act that is immoral in and of itself and one that is immoral because we aren't sufficiently smart/honorable/efficient. This informs the argument - in the latter case killing could be permissible if only we become more advanced - in the former case it would never be permissible.
gizajob 2y ago
If murder is illegal, then it makes no difference if the state does it as punishment for committing murder. You’ve still sanctioned a murder, admittedly of a murderer. A civilised country accepts this simple logic and doesn’t sanction murder under any circumstances.
- nicolas_t 2y ago
  In that case, would a civilised country have a military? Any military operations is state sanctioned killings.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- bbor 2y ago
  I love the moral direction, but this sadly doesn’t hold up to philosophical scrutiny. Is it murder to 1. Kill someone who’s about to kill someone? 2. Kill someone in a defensive war to defend your freedoms? 3. Kill someone by prioritizing things other than their medical care, eg in hospice? 4. Kill someone by letting them smoke/drink/overeat? 5. Kill someone by letting them starve? If you want to say that no country is civilized yet then hey I’m with ya. Otherwise, it’s not quite so simple. The death penalty is a tragic injustice, I agree, but just saying “it’s murder” is not a serious engagement with the issue IMO.
- tempfile 2y ago
  No. Murder is not the same as killing, just like not all taking is stealing. Even the most civilised society imaginable admits that killing is sometimes acceptable (in self defense, for example). Killing done by the state is trivially not murder by definition, and less trivially there are justifications you can argue about. But you have to argue about it, your "simple logic" is unfortunately too simple.
  - gizajob 2y ago
    You're right that it is too simple, but it's an easy rule of thumb with which to think about and frame the problem. If it's illegal to kill a human being, then it's illegal. The existence of a death penalty where the state is able to do it in certain cases, as in the main case where someone themselves has broken the rule and murdered, for me, still does not justify any kind of legalistic justification for sanctioning they be killed. While "the state" is this abstract entity formed by all of us, the state has to act through people, who then have to be involved in taking a life. The state's premeditation of the killing of the murderer is even more premeditated and drawn out form of murder. It's easy to be blinded by the language used around this towards what is happening. I believe even further that if the state is allowed to do it, it opens a loophole in thought that could actually cause more murders to happen, because if the state can do it, then maybe I'll do it too...
colinb 2y ago
Here’s another thought experiment. We have ample evidence that the death penalty hasn’t made America safe from murder. But we don’t know if it has deterrence value for lesser crimes. I propose death by hanging for repeat littering and speeding near a school. I bet that’d be effective.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  Hanging? Why not shoot on sight, like the second amendment absolutionists/extremists think is the way to go?
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  > We have ample evidence that the death penalty hasn’t made America safe from murder. But we don’t know if it has deterrence value for lesser crimes. You seem to be suggesting that because murders still happen, we know the death penalty has no deterrence value? That's not how deterrence works.
SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
Even if we had 100% certainty what crimes are 100% worth death? Not even that is simple. If you want to consider cost, it costs literal millions to execute someone.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  Plus what of the potential profit? The guilty person could be a teenager making a silly mistake who could grow up to become the next Einstein. Insert Bill Gates' mugshot here, who is responsible for hundreds of thousands of jobs and bringing billions into the US / worldwide economy. But he was guilty and it would probably have been better to execute him because what if he did something else wrong?
  - sparrish 2y ago
    They don't give the death penalty to teenagers making 'silly mistake's. It's a sentence not handed out without weighty thought and only to those who knowingly and intentionally take life. I'm so tired of the "next Einstein" pithy replies. These are adults who have done heinous crimes against innocent people. Justice requires severe consequences.
spacechild1 2y ago
> Curious to know if your views would change? It wouldn't. There are cases where we do know someone's guilt with 100% confidence, but in my country we still don't execute them.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Cthulhu_ 2y ago
Guilt or innocence is irrellevant to the discussion about whether the death penalty is justified though, for several reasons; it's binary thinking (there's a right and a wrong, there's good and bad people); it's dehumanizing (a bad person is forever bad and will forever be a burden to society); it's reductionist (a prisoner unit costs X per year at no benefit to society), etc. I don't know enough philosophy to list everything wrong with this premise. Think hard about why someone commits a crime. What is their background, their circustances, and what would have prevented it from happenign. Then think about what you think the purpose is of a sentencing? Is it for revenge, revalidation, setting an example, or removing undesireables from society (temporarily, indefinitely, or permanently)?
- SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
  > Think hard about why someone commits a crime. What is their background, their circustances, and what would have prevented it from happenign. I think that the kind of crimes which lead to a death sentence happen because the perpetrator is a bad person who likes to hurt others. There's no "background" or "circumstances" that would make you break into a woman's house and stab her to death - to do such a thing, you have to either not know or not care that it's wrong. That doesn't by itself prove that the death penalty is right, or even that people who commit these kind of murders can never be rehabilitated. But it's really disturbing to me how often people whitewash the specific crimes death row inmates are accused of, as though we're all a couple missed paychecks away from randomly murdering people.
dpkirchner 2y ago
Suppose we could see everything that happened in the past, perfectly, and see in to the minds of everyone. We could save dollars!

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

ctxc 2y ago

I believe there are heinous crimes that do. Both fitting the crime and as a deterrent.

bmicraft 2y ago
> as a deterrent Do you have any sources supporting the claim that does actually deter anybody?
tristan957 2y ago
The US has more violent crime than other Western countries, so as a deterrent, it does not work. Perhaps instead of wasting money on death penalty appeals and killing innocent people, we should think about how we as a country can overhaul the prison system and our societal structures.
- IncreasePosts 2y ago
  That logic doesn't follow, because it could be the case that America would be even more violent if we didn't execute people. Having said that, I find the deterrence angle suspect. Very few people would consider spending the rest of their life in jail acceptable, but being put to death unacceptable.
- dawnerd 2y ago
  For profit prisons are not helping anything. They have zero interest in rehab and reformation - and unfortunately a lot of people in the states and beyond believe once you're a criminal you're tarnished forever.
- mercutio2 2y ago
  It's extremely difficult to compare crime statistics that don't involve death. There's under reporting right and left, and there are classification problems. With that said, I don't think it's true that the US has, per capita, significantly more violent crime than the median Western country. What we have is a LOT more guns, which increase the probability that our violent crime becomes lethal. We DO have vastly more incarceration than most other countries, though.