6 ms·

Google in 2057: "We're excited to announce that Android Tablets now have a terminal, with full support of terminal applications like 'ed' and 'grep'!"

by drcode 2y ago

yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
I mean, termux is a thing. Although, having it officially supported instead of Google constantly trying to break it would be great.
- surajrmal 2y ago
  Your wording makes it sound like you think Google out of its way to break termux. What makes you believe that? Its execution model is at odds with the security model Android pushes for so of course it'll come with some challenges. It tries to provide an environment suitable for a legacy application model that doesn't really take security as seriously. The only real way to win here is by using a VM which is what ChromeOS did. That allows sufficient isolation such that it need not try to force something to work in an environment not built for it.
  - AshamedCaptain 2y ago
    > It tries to provide an environment suitable for a legacy application model that doesn't really take security as seriously. Erm... what? > The only real way to win here is by using a VM which is what ChromeOS did. What advantage would the VM provide, other than the host OS having even less insight into what the application is doing? (Which is, by the way, exactly the only reason Android is introducing VMs: hiding stuff from the host Android)
    - fragmede 2y ago
      That's not the reason. The host android has full access to the child VMs; the VM can't hide anything from the hypervisor. It's about isolation. The child VM can't leak your photos or contact list if it doesn't have it in the first place, and sticking things into their own VM provides an additional layer of isolation beyond what exists currently.
      - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
        I don't think that's true; my recollection, which appears to match https://source.android.com/docs/core/virtualization/architecture#hypervisor https://source.android.com/docs/core/virtualization/architec... , is that Android uses hardware support to run VMs that even the host kernel can't actually see into.
        fragmede 2y ago
        fascinating link, thank you! The host android won't have access to the guest VMs but the hypervisor still does.
  - wiseowise 2y ago
    > Your wording makes it sound like you think Google out of its way to break termux. What makes you believe that? They sure as hell don’t go out of their way to help keep it running.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
    On the one hand, no, I don't think there's some whiteboard inside Google titled "master plan to make Termux stop working". On the other hand... so you know how on iOS, Apple has a policy of disallowing apps to have their own JIT? It probably does make the system more secure (JIT engines are historically a good place to find vulnerabilities), but it does so by prohibiting valid behavior and preventing entire classes of apps from existing. I'm on Android specifically because I don't think that's reasonable, so no, I'm not really cool with Google trying to rule out running Linux programs on a Linux distro (Android is a weird Linux distro, but it still is one). And a VM does help with security, but it also isn't a general solution; there are perfectly valid usecases that termux can do that a VM would either make needlessly difficult (little things like "open files" or "listen on a port") or impossible (get a root shell and invoke /system/bin/input for automation).
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      It says rigth there on the NDK page, > Squeeze extra performance out of a device to achieve low latency or run computationally intensive applications, such as games or physics simulations. > Reuse your own or other developers' C or C++ libraries. Followed by https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/stable_apis https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/stable_apis It is not on that list, it isn't supported.
  - freedomben 2y ago
    Google seems to have fully bought into the philosophy that the user is a security threat. The devices are no longer about protecting the user from other threats, but also about protecting the device from the user. Termux is the type of application that enables the user to do stuff that the Google designers don't think is safe (like send SMS messages programmatically!) so maintaining the APIs it depends on is not a priority. I doubt anyone at Google is trying to break Termux, but they don't care about power users and they think Android should function like their iPhone and treat users accordingly.
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      This is the only thing that is officially supported on the NDK, https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/stable_apis https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/stable_apis If it isn't on that list, it works by luck and can be broken on any device or Android update.
      - Dylan16807 2y ago
        So you agree? Overly limited list to keep the user out of "trouble"? If that's not what you mean, I'm not sure how your link works as a reply to a comment on Google's motivation.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  People haven't yet got the memo that Linux syscalls aren't official APIs on NDK, and the Google way is to use Java/Kotlin userspace. So naturally Google breaks "private" APIs whenever they feel like.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
    ...right... which is why I said it would be nice for Google to officially bless the thing that already works so that it is official. (And can we just pretend that I replied the same thing to the other places in the thread you posted the exact same response? No point in duplicating threads)
justmarc 2y ago
"And select models of Android tablet now ship with a built in hardware keyboard that is an integral part of the tablet body."
- poisonborz 2y ago
  That is called a 2in1 laptop?
candiddevmike 2y ago
At least they're trying to view the tablet as a multipurpose PC, as opposed to Apple who believe such things are abhorrent.
- hulitu 2y ago
  > At least they're trying to view the tablet as a multipurpose PC, Maybe in their marketing materials. Trying to do something useful on an Android tablet is painfull. The on screen keyboard uses half of your screen.
- emsy 2y ago
  Imagine the iPad with an actual OS. Unfathomable.
  - talldayo 2y ago
    We only have to wait for Apple to invent (and appropriately price) the technology for a Bootcamp 2. Until then, it simply cannot be done.
    - freedomben 2y ago
      Nobody is asking for that or compatibility with texting Android phones. Just buy your mom an iPhone.
- refulgentis 2y ago
  Don't read too much into it, it's not about the principle insomuch as its about the efficiency of killing off Chrome OS to merge it into Android, and a continual game of whac-a-mole to woo Samsung execs so they don't put too much investment into software. It'll work about as well as the years of efforts to get devs to do apps the Google way in time for the Pixel Tablet launch.
- jsheard 2y ago
  The fact that newer iPads use the exact same silicon as MacBooks is just insult to injury. There's a grown-up computer hidden inside but you're not allowed to use it.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
wiseowise 2y ago
Doubt it will ever happen. Not when Android is moving more and more towards Apple model.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
pjmlp 2y ago
Even so, it would be a userspace written in Java/Kotlin.

Google in 2057: "We're excited to announce that Android Tablets now have a terminal, with full support of terminal applications like 'ed' and 'grep'!"

by drcode 2y ago

Google in 2057: "We're excited to announce that Android Tablets now have a terminal, with full support of terminal applications like 'ed' and 'grep'!"

yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago

I mean, termux is a thing. Although, having it officially supported instead of Google constantly trying to break it would be great.

surajrmal 2y ago
Your wording makes it sound like you think Google out of its way to break termux. What makes you believe that? Its execution model is at odds with the security model Android pushes for so of course it'll come with some challenges. It tries to provide an environment suitable for a legacy application model that doesn't really take security as seriously. The only real way to win here is by using a VM which is what ChromeOS did. That allows sufficient isolation such that it need not try to force something to work in an environment not built for it.
- AshamedCaptain 2y ago
  > It tries to provide an environment suitable for a legacy application model that doesn't really take security as seriously. Erm... what? > The only real way to win here is by using a VM which is what ChromeOS did. What advantage would the VM provide, other than the host OS having even less insight into what the application is doing? (Which is, by the way, exactly the only reason Android is introducing VMs: hiding stuff from the host Android)
  - fragmede 2y ago
    That's not the reason. The host android has full access to the child VMs; the VM can't hide anything from the hypervisor. It's about isolation. The child VM can't leak your photos or contact list if it doesn't have it in the first place, and sticking things into their own VM provides an additional layer of isolation beyond what exists currently.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
      I don't think that's true; my recollection, which appears to match https://source.android.com/docs/core/virtualization/architecture#hypervisor https://source.android.com/docs/core/virtualization/architec... , is that Android uses hardware support to run VMs that even the host kernel can't actually see into.
      - fragmede 2y ago
        fascinating link, thank you! The host android won't have access to the guest VMs but the hypervisor still does.
- wiseowise 2y ago
  > Your wording makes it sound like you think Google out of its way to break termux. What makes you believe that? They sure as hell don’t go out of their way to help keep it running.
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
  On the one hand, no, I don't think there's some whiteboard inside Google titled "master plan to make Termux stop working". On the other hand... so you know how on iOS, Apple has a policy of disallowing apps to have their own JIT? It probably does make the system more secure (JIT engines are historically a good place to find vulnerabilities), but it does so by prohibiting valid behavior and preventing entire classes of apps from existing. I'm on Android specifically because I don't think that's reasonable, so no, I'm not really cool with Google trying to rule out running Linux programs on a Linux distro (Android is a weird Linux distro, but it still is one). And a VM does help with security, but it also isn't a general solution; there are perfectly valid usecases that termux can do that a VM would either make needlessly difficult (little things like "open files" or "listen on a port") or impossible (get a root shell and invoke /system/bin/input for automation).
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    It says rigth there on the NDK page, > Squeeze extra performance out of a device to achieve low latency or run computationally intensive applications, such as games or physics simulations. > Reuse your own or other developers' C or C++ libraries. Followed by https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/stable_apis https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/stable_apis It is not on that list, it isn't supported.
- freedomben 2y ago
  Google seems to have fully bought into the philosophy that the user is a security threat. The devices are no longer about protecting the user from other threats, but also about protecting the device from the user. Termux is the type of application that enables the user to do stuff that the Google designers don't think is safe (like send SMS messages programmatically!) so maintaining the APIs it depends on is not a priority. I doubt anyone at Google is trying to break Termux, but they don't care about power users and they think Android should function like their iPhone and treat users accordingly.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    This is the only thing that is officially supported on the NDK, https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/stable_apis https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/stable_apis If it isn't on that list, it works by luck and can be broken on any device or Android update.
    - Dylan16807 2y ago
      So you agree? Overly limited list to keep the user out of "trouble"? If that's not what you mean, I'm not sure how your link works as a reply to a comment on Google's motivation.
pjmlp 2y ago
People haven't yet got the memo that Linux syscalls aren't official APIs on NDK, and the Google way is to use Java/Kotlin userspace. So naturally Google breaks "private" APIs whenever they feel like.
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
  ...right... which is why I said it would be nice for Google to officially bless the thing that already works so that it is official. (And can we just pretend that I replied the same thing to the other places in the thread you posted the exact same response? No point in duplicating threads)

justmarc 2y ago

"And select models of Android tablet now ship with a built in hardware keyboard that is an integral part of the tablet body."

poisonborz 2y ago
That is called a 2in1 laptop?

candiddevmike 2y ago

At least they're trying to view the tablet as a multipurpose PC, as opposed to Apple who believe such things are abhorrent.

hulitu 2y ago
> At least they're trying to view the tablet as a multipurpose PC, Maybe in their marketing materials. Trying to do something useful on an Android tablet is painfull. The on screen keyboard uses half of your screen.
emsy 2y ago
Imagine the iPad with an actual OS. Unfathomable.
- talldayo 2y ago
  We only have to wait for Apple to invent (and appropriately price) the technology for a Bootcamp 2. Until then, it simply cannot be done.
  - freedomben 2y ago
    Nobody is asking for that or compatibility with texting Android phones. Just buy your mom an iPhone.
refulgentis 2y ago
Don't read too much into it, it's not about the principle insomuch as its about the efficiency of killing off Chrome OS to merge it into Android, and a continual game of whac-a-mole to woo Samsung execs so they don't put too much investment into software. It'll work about as well as the years of efforts to get devs to do apps the Google way in time for the Pixel Tablet launch.
jsheard 2y ago
The fact that newer iPads use the exact same silicon as MacBooks is just insult to injury. There's a grown-up computer hidden inside but you're not allowed to use it.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

wiseowise 2y ago

Doubt it will ever happen. Not when Android is moving more and more towards Apple model.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

pjmlp 2y ago

Even so, it would be a userspace written in Java/Kotlin.