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Kubernetes is planned - my devops wants me to add it badly! Author note - Most of you guys here are power users, for whom UI is a visual poem that you need or

Kubernetes is planned - my devops wants me to add it badly! Author note - Most of you guys here are power users, for whom UI is a visual poem that you need or not. This is not a commercial project, it is not following any business goals. But this does not mean concessions to quality, it does try to offer minimal resource usage everywhere, easy experience, good UI/UX. It explains all it does behind the scenes if you enable the developer console. It can help one learn so at a certain moment one understands and automates with scripts and specs. But everyone these days is either seen as too smart or too dumb, I don't consider users like this. I know everyone started somewhere and a gradual learning experience is the best. I broke so many radios and toys when I was a kid and I learned so much, by looking at what was is inside. It is a project done by one dude, after work and when it rains outside (In Belgium it rains a lot).

beepbooptheory 2y ago
> But everyone these days is either seen as too smart or too dumb Vert succinct and poetic way to describe so much these days in this space.
ljm 2y ago
I never finished it, but I had a lot of fun documenting a basic-ass K8S (well, K3S) setup that costs about 20€/mo on Hetzner. You don't really learn about sysadmin through it, or even about docker that much, but you get an idea of how you might easily run a few different things on a server while only needing to know YAML, and not some custom DSL like chef or puppet.
- thwarted 2y ago
  > only needing to know YAML, and not some custom DSL like chef or puppet. YAML may be a known syntax, but the use of it still requires domain specific knowledge, and is still a domain specific language expressing those domain specific concepts, as to what the expected keys and values are allowed to be and how they are interpreted.
  - ljm 2y ago
    YAML isn’t the DSL, it’s just the language used to express declarative config because the tooling is ubiquitous and it’s rare that anyone uses it as anything more than a nicer version of JSON. For Kubernetes, it’s CRDs that are written in YAML and they conform to a specification.
- ericbarrett 2y ago
  I did something similar between jobs—built a k8s "cluster" on my home Linux box using kops+qemu. It didn't make me an experienced admin, but it was really enlightening and fun! Projects like these are a great way to learn.
- gavindean90 2y ago
  Ansible?
GiorgioG 2y ago
[flagged]
- abuani 2y ago
  Like everything in tech, it's all about tradeoffs and understanding how you want to scale your business. Of the three startups I've been at, 2 of them adopted k8s early on and 1 of which didn't. Of the two that adopted k8s, one I would say k8s was our key differentiator in terms of our GTM motion and how our platform powered the business. $MM customer needs a setup running as close to their current infra's region for just about any reason, yeah sure we can spin that up in a week. This was often the key bit that allowed us to take customers from our key competitors before the competitor even knew we were in play. The 2nd one..... giant waste of money that gave me a decent pay check. The third startup that opted _not_ to adopt k8s is stuck at $100M in revenue and can't land customers fast enough to offset churn. This is entirely because the COO has held the mentality "k8s bad, amirite?" and stuck with a patchwork of ansible scripts to manage configuring VM farms that ran our stack. Years of tech debt piled up and every new $MM customer coming in that needs to run in a specific region for $reasons, takes 6 months to setup and cost so much that we'd lose money on the deal. I genuinely believe this startup would be closer to $500M in revenue in the years since I've left had they invested in migrating from containers running in VM's to k8s. But instead they had to lay off 30% of their staff and get another round of funding, and are stagnating.
  - GiorgioG 2y ago
    You don’t need k8s to scale. Can you make other poor choices? Sure.
    - Alupis 2y ago
      I have found that people who are adamant haters of k8s, usually truly do not understand k8s or the issues it solves. It's not for everyone - but having a knee-jerk allergic reaction to anything k8s is silly. That said - k8s isn't just about scaling, or for "web scale" companies. If you are a person that believes that, it means you are the type of person I am talking about.
canadianfella 2y ago
[dead]
knowitnone 2y ago
Sorry for being pandentic but you don't learn much by looking at the inside of a radio because it's mostly electronic components except for the knobs, antenna, dial. Without understanding how the the electronics work, you're just looking at parts. Mechanical parts like a bicycle, much easier to reason. Not knowing your background, can you build a radio if giving a box of parts? I certainly can't.
- diggan 2y ago
  Maybe he's talking about a crystal radio? Those are relatively trivial to put together.
- salmo 2y ago
  I don’t think you’re being pedantic. You’re just making a weird assumption that the radio itself is the only resource. I learned a ton from this as a kid. And I learned from Radio Shack. You stare at it, you go research, you try to fix it, you fail. Talk to someone who knows stuff. Repeat until it works or you work on a new one. It’s really no different than how I taught myself to fix a chain or replace a spoke. Or know to use WD-40 to clean, but then apply an oil to keep stuff lubricated and protected. With the internet, it’s a lot easier. I can look up spec sheets just googling component markings and see the sample circuits. I’ve stared at the Linux kernel a ton. I messed with some stuff. I couldn’t write a kernel myself, but I program better from doing it and I can troubleshoot things easier knowing the components and topology. Off the top of my head, I can fumble around and make a crappy amplifier from parts in my closet, or write a crappy FAT-like file system. I’d probably struggle a bit with a nice new bike. I think gear shifters and stuff are a lot fancier than an old 10 speed.
AlienRobot 2y ago
Well said. I agree completely.
sverhagen 2y ago
I don't live my life entirely on the command line either, but GUIs for Docker are just an interesting niche to me, for which I just don't understand what the ven diagram is between people that want Docker containers running locally, know that that's what they want, and know how it all works, but then don't want to do the small handful of commands at the prompt needed to get it running...
- brailsafe 2y ago
  I don't necessarily want docker containers running locally as some hobbyist, they might be just part of the process, and if the gui helps me move through that process efficiently without having to add more commands to my memory, I'm happy about that. CLIs are great, but when nearly everything has one, those small amount of commands become quite a lot in aggregate.
  - bubaumba 2y ago
    there are ways to minimize memorization, most important: 1. keep log, docs, records of whatever you are doing. most commands are repetitive. 2. copilot or chatgpt, they help a lot with command lines and simple utilities 3. amazon Q sucks in comparison. 4. it used to be google, but now LLMs do it better. less scrolling and ads/spam.
    - ihateolives 2y ago
      Yes, either all that above or just GUI for rare occasions.
      - bubaumba 2y ago
        yes, when it's possible. but guis may not exist or may be not better than console, like in case of ffmpeg. the best, of course, is smart assistant who can take verbal commands. either human or llm. but my post was about doing complex tasks in general. try to offload. another advise for developers is to write comments, even in your small hobby projects. this way you don't have to memorize it all. this was learned hard way. i usually also have a separate documentation with plans, ideas, algorithms, useful info. remind: this is for hobby projects. and important thing: touch typing is must have. this makes it all much easier
mihaitodor 2y ago
I don’t get why people need Kubernetes integrations. Kind works just fine. You run it from the terminal and it starts a “cluster” as one or more containers. You can define port bindings and volume mounts via the yaml config. Job done. Also, nice work on Container Desktop!
- dboreham 2y ago
  Poorly documented is one possibility. Also if you find an issue with anything that's not "testing k8s" the devs will tell you you're not supposed to use it for that.
osigurdson 2y ago
>> Kubernetes is planned - my devops wants me to add it badly! Do you mean the Podman "Kubernetes like" functionality (e.g. podman play kube..) or Kubernetes itself?
tacone 2y ago
> It explains all it does behind the scenes if you enable the developer console. It can help one learn so at a certain moment one understands and automates with scripts and specs. An excellent way to learn indeed! Good luck with your project.
MrDrMcCoy 2y ago
This looks really slick! Quick question for you: the site mentions that other engines are planned. I'm curious what those might be. I would guess something like directly interfacing with containerd or kata, but would love to know more. If I could request one, it would be to directly use systemd, since it now covers all the necessary features to run containers quite nicely.
- istoica 2y ago
  Incus looks promising, see here https://linuxcontainers.org/incus https://linuxcontainers.org/incus As for systemd, podman is amazing https://docs.redhat.com/en/documentation/red_hat_enterprise_linux/8/html/building_running_and_managing_containers/assembly_porting-containers-to-systemd-using-podman_building-running-and-managing-containers https://docs.redhat.com/en/documentation/red_hat_enterprise_...

beepbooptheory 2y ago

> But everyone these days is either seen as too smart or too dumb Vert succinct and poetic way to describe so much these days in this space.

ljm 2y ago

I never finished it, but I had a lot of fun documenting a basic-ass K8S (well, K3S) setup that costs about 20€/mo on Hetzner. You don't really learn about sysadmin through it, or even about docker that much, but you get an idea of how you might easily run a few different things on a server while only needing to know YAML, and not some custom DSL like chef or puppet.

thwarted 2y ago
> only needing to know YAML, and not some custom DSL like chef or puppet. YAML may be a known syntax, but the use of it still requires domain specific knowledge, and is still a domain specific language expressing those domain specific concepts, as to what the expected keys and values are allowed to be and how they are interpreted.
- ljm 2y ago
  YAML isn’t the DSL, it’s just the language used to express declarative config because the tooling is ubiquitous and it’s rare that anyone uses it as anything more than a nicer version of JSON. For Kubernetes, it’s CRDs that are written in YAML and they conform to a specification.
ericbarrett 2y ago
I did something similar between jobs—built a k8s "cluster" on my home Linux box using kops+qemu. It didn't make me an experienced admin, but it was really enlightening and fun! Projects like these are a great way to learn.
gavindean90 2y ago
Ansible?

GiorgioG 2y ago

[flagged]

abuani 2y ago
Like everything in tech, it's all about tradeoffs and understanding how you want to scale your business. Of the three startups I've been at, 2 of them adopted k8s early on and 1 of which didn't. Of the two that adopted k8s, one I would say k8s was our key differentiator in terms of our GTM motion and how our platform powered the business. $MM customer needs a setup running as close to their current infra's region for just about any reason, yeah sure we can spin that up in a week. This was often the key bit that allowed us to take customers from our key competitors before the competitor even knew we were in play. The 2nd one..... giant waste of money that gave me a decent pay check. The third startup that opted _not_ to adopt k8s is stuck at $100M in revenue and can't land customers fast enough to offset churn. This is entirely because the COO has held the mentality "k8s bad, amirite?" and stuck with a patchwork of ansible scripts to manage configuring VM farms that ran our stack. Years of tech debt piled up and every new $MM customer coming in that needs to run in a specific region for $reasons, takes 6 months to setup and cost so much that we'd lose money on the deal. I genuinely believe this startup would be closer to $500M in revenue in the years since I've left had they invested in migrating from containers running in VM's to k8s. But instead they had to lay off 30% of their staff and get another round of funding, and are stagnating.
- GiorgioG 2y ago
  You don’t need k8s to scale. Can you make other poor choices? Sure.
  - Alupis 2y ago
    I have found that people who are adamant haters of k8s, usually truly do not understand k8s or the issues it solves. It's not for everyone - but having a knee-jerk allergic reaction to anything k8s is silly. That said - k8s isn't just about scaling, or for "web scale" companies. If you are a person that believes that, it means you are the type of person I am talking about.

canadianfella 2y ago

[dead]

knowitnone 2y ago

Sorry for being pandentic but you don't learn much by looking at the inside of a radio because it's mostly electronic components except for the knobs, antenna, dial. Without understanding how the the electronics work, you're just looking at parts. Mechanical parts like a bicycle, much easier to reason. Not knowing your background, can you build a radio if giving a box of parts? I certainly can't.

diggan 2y ago
Maybe he's talking about a crystal radio? Those are relatively trivial to put together.
salmo 2y ago
I don’t think you’re being pedantic. You’re just making a weird assumption that the radio itself is the only resource. I learned a ton from this as a kid. And I learned from Radio Shack. You stare at it, you go research, you try to fix it, you fail. Talk to someone who knows stuff. Repeat until it works or you work on a new one. It’s really no different than how I taught myself to fix a chain or replace a spoke. Or know to use WD-40 to clean, but then apply an oil to keep stuff lubricated and protected. With the internet, it’s a lot easier. I can look up spec sheets just googling component markings and see the sample circuits. I’ve stared at the Linux kernel a ton. I messed with some stuff. I couldn’t write a kernel myself, but I program better from doing it and I can troubleshoot things easier knowing the components and topology. Off the top of my head, I can fumble around and make a crappy amplifier from parts in my closet, or write a crappy FAT-like file system. I’d probably struggle a bit with a nice new bike. I think gear shifters and stuff are a lot fancier than an old 10 speed.

AlienRobot 2y ago

Well said. I agree completely.

sverhagen 2y ago

I don't live my life entirely on the command line either, but GUIs for Docker are just an interesting niche to me, for which I just don't understand what the ven diagram is between people that want Docker containers running locally, know that that's what they want, and know how it all works, but then don't want to do the small handful of commands at the prompt needed to get it running...

brailsafe 2y ago
I don't necessarily want docker containers running locally as some hobbyist, they might be just part of the process, and if the gui helps me move through that process efficiently without having to add more commands to my memory, I'm happy about that. CLIs are great, but when nearly everything has one, those small amount of commands become quite a lot in aggregate.
- bubaumba 2y ago
  there are ways to minimize memorization, most important: 1. keep log, docs, records of whatever you are doing. most commands are repetitive. 2. copilot or chatgpt, they help a lot with command lines and simple utilities 3. amazon Q sucks in comparison. 4. it used to be google, but now LLMs do it better. less scrolling and ads/spam.
  - ihateolives 2y ago
    Yes, either all that above or just GUI for rare occasions.
    - bubaumba 2y ago
      yes, when it's possible. but guis may not exist or may be not better than console, like in case of ffmpeg. the best, of course, is smart assistant who can take verbal commands. either human or llm. but my post was about doing complex tasks in general. try to offload. another advise for developers is to write comments, even in your small hobby projects. this way you don't have to memorize it all. this was learned hard way. i usually also have a separate documentation with plans, ideas, algorithms, useful info. remind: this is for hobby projects. and important thing: touch typing is must have. this makes it all much easier

mihaitodor 2y ago

I don’t get why people need Kubernetes integrations. Kind works just fine. You run it from the terminal and it starts a “cluster” as one or more containers. You can define port bindings and volume mounts via the yaml config. Job done. Also, nice work on Container Desktop!

dboreham 2y ago
Poorly documented is one possibility. Also if you find an issue with anything that's not "testing k8s" the devs will tell you you're not supposed to use it for that.

osigurdson 2y ago

>> Kubernetes is planned - my devops wants me to add it badly! Do you mean the Podman "Kubernetes like" functionality (e.g. podman play kube..) or Kubernetes itself?

tacone 2y ago

> It explains all it does behind the scenes if you enable the developer console. It can help one learn so at a certain moment one understands and automates with scripts and specs. An excellent way to learn indeed! Good luck with your project.

MrDrMcCoy 2y ago

This looks really slick! Quick question for you: the site mentions that other engines are planned. I'm curious what those might be. I would guess something like directly interfacing with containerd or kata, but would love to know more. If I could request one, it would be to directly use systemd, since it now covers all the necessary features to run containers quite nicely.

istoica 2y ago
Incus looks promising, see here https://linuxcontainers.org/incus https://linuxcontainers.org/incus As for systemd, podman is amazing https://docs.redhat.com/en/documentation/red_hat_enterprise_linux/8/html/building_running_and_managing_containers/assembly_porting-containers-to-systemd-using-podman_building-running-and-managing-containers https://docs.redhat.com/en/documentation/red_hat_enterprise_...