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I'd seen some rumors that Tesla has been trying to slow down onboarding of other automakers to their charging network, so it's good to see information to the co

by flurie 2y ago

I'd seen some rumors that Tesla has been trying to slow down onboarding of other automakers to their charging network, so it's good to see information to the contrary. I still struggle to see how this ends up favorable for Tesla in the long run. They did not charge licensing fees for the connector, and even if they charge a premium to charge non-Tesla vehicles, now owners of Tesla vehicles are going to run into situations where a Chevy Bolt has to double park to use a Tesla fast charger at <=50kW, doubly driving down utilization.

tensor 2y ago
Yeah, I can't see how it's great for Tesla other than I guess extra revenue from charging. But the infrastructure already is somewhat constrained, so yes there will be more lines now at superchargers. On the other hand, I'm happy we're not heading down the path of shitty walled gardens of charging, eventually Tesla owners will also benefit from being able to charge more easily at 3rd party chargers. For humanity this is a good thing, and increases overall efficiency of infrastructure greatly.
- MBCook 2y ago
  They had to open their chargers to get some of the benefits from that big bill a year or two ago (build back better?). That may be why. In low use areas it may be a nice ROI. I’ve heard in high use areas things could already be bad from the increase in Teslas sold and piling Fords, GMs, and Rivians in isn’t going to lighten the load any.
  - jauntywundrkind 2y ago
    Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, https://driveelectric.gov/news/new-cfi-funding-released https://driveelectric.gov/news/new-cfi-funding-released > This funding opportunity is made possible by the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law’s signature EV charging investments: the $2.5 billion Charging and Fueling Infrastructure (CFI) Discretionary Grant Program and funds from the National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure (NEVI) Formula Program that are set aside for strategic grants to states and local governments to deploy EV chargers. It seems like Tesla's behavior has been much better in Europe, and I'm not sure what explains the discrepancy.
    - MBCook 2y ago
      They didn’t have a choice. My understand is the EU dictated all cars have the IEC Type 2(?) connector to sell, so Tesla complied. No mess like the US. The US had no such law and has refused to make one. We’ve gone with the traditional carrot approach where they wouldn’t get funds to built more superchargers without doing this due to the infrastructure law. But it was their choice and they didn’t have to.
      - rpmisms 2y ago
        Seems like the US free market approach is winning yet again, where the superior product is becoming the standard, and the inventor of the superior product is profiting.
        MBCook 2y ago
        I don’t know. They could have given away their connector 10 years ago and saved everyone a huge and expensive mess. But that’s in their interest. So instead dozens of companies wasted huge amounts of monies installing a bunch of cables that all have to be replaced. Or the government could have seen that they had a better option and simply taken it and said it was the standard. But of course that wouldn’t be the American way. So we suffered through a giant mess instead wasting time and money. Tesla chose not to fix this until the damage was done and their benefit was small enough to be worth giving up.
        olyjohn 2y ago
        The problem is that it seems like people who believe in the free market as the solution to everything are the same ones who work hard to monopolize and destroy it.
        rpmisms 2y ago
        > They could have given away their connector 10 years ago And nobody would have adopted it. They had to make it into a de facto standard first, and did. Now, anyone who adopts it gets an infrastructure boost. > Tesla chose not to fix this until the damage was done What damage? Massive EV adoption? Retrofits are not difficult, and adapters are cheap.
IncreasePosts 2y ago
No licensing fees, but they are charging a premium for non-Teslas to use the superchargers.
- idontwantthis 2y ago
  Do you have a source showing they are charging higher prices for non Teslas?
  - emilecantin 2y ago
    This is common knowledge. I don't have a link to send you, but I've just looked up the closest supercharger on the Tesla website and it charges 0.55$ / kWh for NACS vehicles, while in my Tesla app the same supercharger shows 0.42$ / kWh.
    - connicpu 2y ago
      I feel bad for people who can't charge at home. I get to charge at my residential 11.5¢/kWh. Though I don't go far from home very often so I've never charged anywhere else. If I wasn't getting this rate the savings over gas would get a lot narrower.
      - rstupek 2y ago
        My electric plan has free evenings so I charge for free!
        IncreasePosts 2y ago
        I'm surprised crypto bros haven't bought every house in your neighborhood
        rstupek 2y ago
        It’s a Texas plan not specifically for a neighborhood
JanSolo 2y ago
> I still struggle to see how this ends up favorable for Tesla in the long run. They're expanding their customer-base by maybe 2x or more. Those new customers will be be giving recurring payments to Tesla. For vehicles that Tesla didn't build. How is that not favourable?
- wlesieutre 2y ago
  The downside is that when people are considering which car to buy, Tesla has enjoyed their charging network as a strong selling point that other automakers don't have
  - aniviacat 2y ago
    But they gain the selling point that charging Teslas is cheaper.
    - alamortsubite 2y ago
      How much will owners of other manufacturers' cars pay for electricity at the Superchargers, compared to those who have Teslas? The article doesn't mention this (or I missed it). I'm curious to know what this adds up to over the life of a car.
      - bluGill 2y ago
        Short term it will likely be the same - Telsa has the most chargers, but they do not have a monopoly and they will be forced to charge the same to all just to compete.
        wlesieutre 2y ago
        Most places it's not like gas stations where there's 3 on the same block and they all have exactly the same price all the time, people are going to stop at whatever charger is located where they need it and pay whatever the price is as long as it's within reason.
fiftyfifty 2y ago
Tesla actually had $1.74 billion in revenue from its charging network in 2023, Bloomberg estimates that they probably made about 10% profits from that or $174 million. They are predicting that to grow to $7.4 billion in revenue by 2030. In my neck of the woods many of the Tesla superchargers I see are empty most of the time, presumably adding 3rd party vehicles is a way for Tesla to increase it's profits on their already built out network. Of course Tesla is still adding to their network but presumably as that investment decreases and the fact that they are charging more for non-Tesla vehicles, their profits will increase. It seems like it's turned into a nice little side business. https://insideevs.com/news/715644/tesla-supercharger-network-revenue/ https://insideevs.com/news/715644/tesla-supercharger-network...
- hackernewds 2y ago
  The impact of selling fewer cars due to the chaos of standing in mall lines waiting to charge is going to be a net harm I think to Tesla in the long run
  - gpm 2y ago
    Solved by continuing to expand the network. Just like we have sufficient gas stations, except chargers should be a hell of a lot cheaper to build than gas stations given the latter's environmental constraints.
phkahler 2y ago
>> I still struggle to see how this ends up favorable for Tesla in the long run. This will allow the rest of the charging infrastructure to become Tesla compatible. That may reduce the load on Teslas network, which they only built so their EVs could go cross country.
- bluGill 2y ago
  More importantly, there are not a lot of chargers. Gas stations are on every important intersections, chargers are much less common and only rarely in places as convenient. (part of this is charging takes longer and there is the expectation the people charging are willing to go a little farther to find someplace where there is something else to do). As electric cars become more common every car manufacture needs to be able to say you can get anywhere with no worries as there are chargers. Tesla can get you across the country but you often have no choice where you stop to charge - if you pass a charger at 25% charge you are likely to run out a long way from any charger, while if you pass a gas station at 25% fuel you can probably pass several dozen more before running out and then are close to a station (more than walking distance, but an easy hitchhike) There are exceptions - I've been in remote areas where gas stations are that far miles apart, but they are rare, while that is still normal for EV charging outside of cities (and inside of a city you are more likely to charge at home and thus not care).
  - gwbas1c 2y ago
    Uhm, that's no longer true. There's a lot of new charging stations. This summer, I drove from MA to Washington DC and every other rest stop had chargers; sometimes multiple brands. I also drove from MA to Montreal and there were plenty of chargers. Basically, every time I needed to pee there was a charger 5-10 minutes ahead of me. Plugged in, went to the bathroom, and then I had more than enough charge to go to the next bathroom.
    - bluGill 2y ago
      Depends on where you travel, I travel a lot in the west. Gas stations are not as common. I'm glad and not surprised to hear denser parts of the us are getting reasonable charger density as well.
bradgessler 2y ago
Tesla bills themselves as an energy company. In theory, they could back their charging network with solar and battery storage and offer power cheaper/cleaner than competitors.
peutetre 2y ago
> I'd seen some rumors that Tesla has been trying to slow down onboarding of other automakers to their charging network It's more simple. The delays have been because Musk threw a tantrum and fired the whole supercharging team: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/inside-story-elon-musks-mass-firings-tesla-supercharger-staff-2024-05-15/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/inside... > I still struggle to see how this ends up favorable for Tesla in the long run Standardization gives Teslas more access to more chargers. It will also drive up utilization of Tesla's charging network because more cars will use more of Tesla's chargers more of the time. https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/28/22596337/tesla-supercharger-elon-musk-open-network-charging-stations https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/28/22596337/tesla-supercharg... Tesla's chargers have been open to all brands for a long time in Europe. Here's a Kia charging on a V4 charger with no app and no Tesla account just as Nature intended: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/yflZN0dLT8s https://www.youtube.com/shorts/yflZN0dLT8s Tesla is just one charge point operator among many in Europe. Tesla's chargers are behind the state of the art. They still don't work well for 800 volt cars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJ2KtzMeh8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJ2KtzMeh8 The Cybertruck is an 800 volt platform and charges faster on Electrify America than on Tesla's own chargers: https://x.com/itskyleconner/status/1775014705222070331 https://x.com/itskyleconner/status/1775014705222070331 EV charging standardization in Europe has driven investment in and deployment of charging infrastructure. The US has 193,000 public AC and DC charge points: https://www.carscoops.com/2024/09/americas-ev-charging-infrastructure-has-doubled-in-less-than-four-years/ https://www.carscoops.com/2024/09/americas-ev-charging-infra... Europe has over 900,000: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41466853 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41466853
- rootusrootus 2y ago
  Europe still hasn’t solved the need-another-app-for-every-charger problem. Probably more effective than standardization is Europe’s love of pigovian taxes on gasoline.
  - peutetre 2y ago
    Contactless payment is mandated going forward. There's an example of no app, no subscription payment in my previous comment. It's being implemented in the field now. EU regulations: https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/fast-chargers-every-60-km-key-eu-motorways?a=FJA05&t%5B0%5D=Charging&curl=1 https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/f... UK regulations: https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/latest-fleet-news/electric-fleet-news/2023/07/12/new-regulations-governing-public-charge-points-published https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/latest-fleet-news/electric-...
partitioned 2y ago
Most places most chargers are empty.
mensetmanusman 2y ago
Tesla go was to speed the adoption of EVs. They succeeded.
ellisv 2y ago
> where a Chevy Bolt has to double park to use a Tesla fast charger at <=50kW, doubly driving down utilization I’ll have you know my Bolt EUV can get 53, maybe 54 kW, for 5, or maybe 10 minutes, thank you very much. But seriously while the max Bolt charge speed is rather slow I rarely ever fast charge. We recently took a road trip that required multiple charging stops and it was fine. I understand it could be inconvenient for drivers who have cars that with a higher charge speed who could have to wait but I’ve never encountered this.
- flurie 2y ago
  I'm on my third (long story) Bolt, I would pick it three more times if I could, and I'm certain that I've sold more Bolts than most GM salesmen, so my comment was more familiar snark than anything. I have done the trips into minimally friendly locales and spent longer than is wise at a Tilted Kilt with small children in order to ensure a healthy buffer for a trip home. This news is nothing but upside for me personally. Perhaps we will encounter one another at a Tesla charging station one day!
itsyogesh 2y ago
The secret lies in the route planning and not the chargers. EV Charging is a discoverability problem, not an infrastructure one. Tesla knows this very well, and just giving access to this infra isn't going to take away anything from them.

by flurie 2y ago

tensor 2y ago

Yeah, I can't see how it's great for Tesla other than I guess extra revenue from charging. But the infrastructure already is somewhat constrained, so yes there will be more lines now at superchargers. On the other hand, I'm happy we're not heading down the path of shitty walled gardens of charging, eventually Tesla owners will also benefit from being able to charge more easily at 3rd party chargers. For humanity this is a good thing, and increases overall efficiency of infrastructure greatly.

MBCook 2y ago
They had to open their chargers to get some of the benefits from that big bill a year or two ago (build back better?). That may be why. In low use areas it may be a nice ROI. I’ve heard in high use areas things could already be bad from the increase in Teslas sold and piling Fords, GMs, and Rivians in isn’t going to lighten the load any.
- jauntywundrkind 2y ago
  Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, https://driveelectric.gov/news/new-cfi-funding-released https://driveelectric.gov/news/new-cfi-funding-released > This funding opportunity is made possible by the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law’s signature EV charging investments: the $2.5 billion Charging and Fueling Infrastructure (CFI) Discretionary Grant Program and funds from the National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure (NEVI) Formula Program that are set aside for strategic grants to states and local governments to deploy EV chargers. It seems like Tesla's behavior has been much better in Europe, and I'm not sure what explains the discrepancy.
  - MBCook 2y ago
    They didn’t have a choice. My understand is the EU dictated all cars have the IEC Type 2(?) connector to sell, so Tesla complied. No mess like the US. The US had no such law and has refused to make one. We’ve gone with the traditional carrot approach where they wouldn’t get funds to built more superchargers without doing this due to the infrastructure law. But it was their choice and they didn’t have to.
    - rpmisms 2y ago
      Seems like the US free market approach is winning yet again, where the superior product is becoming the standard, and the inventor of the superior product is profiting.
      - MBCook 2y ago
        I don’t know. They could have given away their connector 10 years ago and saved everyone a huge and expensive mess. But that’s in their interest. So instead dozens of companies wasted huge amounts of monies installing a bunch of cables that all have to be replaced. Or the government could have seen that they had a better option and simply taken it and said it was the standard. But of course that wouldn’t be the American way. So we suffered through a giant mess instead wasting time and money. Tesla chose not to fix this until the damage was done and their benefit was small enough to be worth giving up.
        olyjohn 2y ago
        The problem is that it seems like people who believe in the free market as the solution to everything are the same ones who work hard to monopolize and destroy it.
        rpmisms 2y ago
        > They could have given away their connector 10 years ago And nobody would have adopted it. They had to make it into a de facto standard first, and did. Now, anyone who adopts it gets an infrastructure boost. > Tesla chose not to fix this until the damage was done What damage? Massive EV adoption? Retrofits are not difficult, and adapters are cheap.

IncreasePosts 2y ago

No licensing fees, but they are charging a premium for non-Teslas to use the superchargers.

idontwantthis 2y ago
Do you have a source showing they are charging higher prices for non Teslas?
- emilecantin 2y ago
  This is common knowledge. I don't have a link to send you, but I've just looked up the closest supercharger on the Tesla website and it charges 0.55$ / kWh for NACS vehicles, while in my Tesla app the same supercharger shows 0.42$ / kWh.
  - connicpu 2y ago
    I feel bad for people who can't charge at home. I get to charge at my residential 11.5¢/kWh. Though I don't go far from home very often so I've never charged anywhere else. If I wasn't getting this rate the savings over gas would get a lot narrower.
    - rstupek 2y ago
      My electric plan has free evenings so I charge for free!
      - IncreasePosts 2y ago
        I'm surprised crypto bros haven't bought every house in your neighborhood
        rstupek 2y ago
        It’s a Texas plan not specifically for a neighborhood

JanSolo 2y ago

> I still struggle to see how this ends up favorable for Tesla in the long run. They're expanding their customer-base by maybe 2x or more. Those new customers will be be giving recurring payments to Tesla. For vehicles that Tesla didn't build. How is that not favourable?

wlesieutre 2y ago
The downside is that when people are considering which car to buy, Tesla has enjoyed their charging network as a strong selling point that other automakers don't have
- aniviacat 2y ago
  But they gain the selling point that charging Teslas is cheaper.
  - alamortsubite 2y ago
    How much will owners of other manufacturers' cars pay for electricity at the Superchargers, compared to those who have Teslas? The article doesn't mention this (or I missed it). I'm curious to know what this adds up to over the life of a car.
    - bluGill 2y ago
      Short term it will likely be the same - Telsa has the most chargers, but they do not have a monopoly and they will be forced to charge the same to all just to compete.
      - wlesieutre 2y ago
        Most places it's not like gas stations where there's 3 on the same block and they all have exactly the same price all the time, people are going to stop at whatever charger is located where they need it and pay whatever the price is as long as it's within reason.

fiftyfifty 2y ago

Tesla actually had $1.74 billion in revenue from its charging network in 2023, Bloomberg estimates that they probably made about 10% profits from that or $174 million. They are predicting that to grow to $7.4 billion in revenue by 2030. In my neck of the woods many of the Tesla superchargers I see are empty most of the time, presumably adding 3rd party vehicles is a way for Tesla to increase it's profits on their already built out network. Of course Tesla is still adding to their network but presumably as that investment decreases and the fact that they are charging more for non-Tesla vehicles, their profits will increase. It seems like it's turned into a nice little side business. https://insideevs.com/news/715644/tesla-supercharger-network-revenue/ https://insideevs.com/news/715644/tesla-supercharger-network...

hackernewds 2y ago
The impact of selling fewer cars due to the chaos of standing in mall lines waiting to charge is going to be a net harm I think to Tesla in the long run
- gpm 2y ago
  Solved by continuing to expand the network. Just like we have sufficient gas stations, except chargers should be a hell of a lot cheaper to build than gas stations given the latter's environmental constraints.

phkahler 2y ago

>> I still struggle to see how this ends up favorable for Tesla in the long run. This will allow the rest of the charging infrastructure to become Tesla compatible. That may reduce the load on Teslas network, which they only built so their EVs could go cross country.

bluGill 2y ago
More importantly, there are not a lot of chargers. Gas stations are on every important intersections, chargers are much less common and only rarely in places as convenient. (part of this is charging takes longer and there is the expectation the people charging are willing to go a little farther to find someplace where there is something else to do). As electric cars become more common every car manufacture needs to be able to say you can get anywhere with no worries as there are chargers. Tesla can get you across the country but you often have no choice where you stop to charge - if you pass a charger at 25% charge you are likely to run out a long way from any charger, while if you pass a gas station at 25% fuel you can probably pass several dozen more before running out and then are close to a station (more than walking distance, but an easy hitchhike) There are exceptions - I've been in remote areas where gas stations are that far miles apart, but they are rare, while that is still normal for EV charging outside of cities (and inside of a city you are more likely to charge at home and thus not care).
- gwbas1c 2y ago
  Uhm, that's no longer true. There's a lot of new charging stations. This summer, I drove from MA to Washington DC and every other rest stop had chargers; sometimes multiple brands. I also drove from MA to Montreal and there were plenty of chargers. Basically, every time I needed to pee there was a charger 5-10 minutes ahead of me. Plugged in, went to the bathroom, and then I had more than enough charge to go to the next bathroom.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    Depends on where you travel, I travel a lot in the west. Gas stations are not as common. I'm glad and not surprised to hear denser parts of the us are getting reasonable charger density as well.

bradgessler 2y ago

Tesla bills themselves as an energy company. In theory, they could back their charging network with solar and battery storage and offer power cheaper/cleaner than competitors.

peutetre 2y ago

> I'd seen some rumors that Tesla has been trying to slow down onboarding of other automakers to their charging network It's more simple. The delays have been because Musk threw a tantrum and fired the whole supercharging team: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/inside-story-elon-musks-mass-firings-tesla-supercharger-staff-2024-05-15/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/inside... > I still struggle to see how this ends up favorable for Tesla in the long run Standardization gives Teslas more access to more chargers. It will also drive up utilization of Tesla's charging network because more cars will use more of Tesla's chargers more of the time. https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/28/22596337/tesla-supercharger-elon-musk-open-network-charging-stations https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/28/22596337/tesla-supercharg... Tesla's chargers have been open to all brands for a long time in Europe. Here's a Kia charging on a V4 charger with no app and no Tesla account just as Nature intended: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/yflZN0dLT8s https://www.youtube.com/shorts/yflZN0dLT8s Tesla is just one charge point operator among many in Europe. Tesla's chargers are behind the state of the art. They still don't work well for 800 volt cars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJ2KtzMeh8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJ2KtzMeh8 The Cybertruck is an 800 volt platform and charges faster on Electrify America than on Tesla's own chargers: https://x.com/itskyleconner/status/1775014705222070331 https://x.com/itskyleconner/status/1775014705222070331 EV charging standardization in Europe has driven investment in and deployment of charging infrastructure. The US has 193,000 public AC and DC charge points: https://www.carscoops.com/2024/09/americas-ev-charging-infrastructure-has-doubled-in-less-than-four-years/ https://www.carscoops.com/2024/09/americas-ev-charging-infra... Europe has over 900,000: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41466853 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41466853

rootusrootus 2y ago
Europe still hasn’t solved the need-another-app-for-every-charger problem. Probably more effective than standardization is Europe’s love of pigovian taxes on gasoline.
- peutetre 2y ago
  Contactless payment is mandated going forward. There's an example of no app, no subscription payment in my previous comment. It's being implemented in the field now. EU regulations: https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/fast-chargers-every-60-km-key-eu-motorways?a=FJA05&t%5B0%5D=Charging&curl=1 https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/f... UK regulations: https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/latest-fleet-news/electric-fleet-news/2023/07/12/new-regulations-governing-public-charge-points-published https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/latest-fleet-news/electric-...

partitioned 2y ago

Most places most chargers are empty.

mensetmanusman 2y ago

Tesla go was to speed the adoption of EVs. They succeeded.

ellisv 2y ago

> where a Chevy Bolt has to double park to use a Tesla fast charger at <=50kW, doubly driving down utilization I’ll have you know my Bolt EUV can get 53, maybe 54 kW, for 5, or maybe 10 minutes, thank you very much. But seriously while the max Bolt charge speed is rather slow I rarely ever fast charge. We recently took a road trip that required multiple charging stops and it was fine. I understand it could be inconvenient for drivers who have cars that with a higher charge speed who could have to wait but I’ve never encountered this.

flurie 2y ago
I'm on my third (long story) Bolt, I would pick it three more times if I could, and I'm certain that I've sold more Bolts than most GM salesmen, so my comment was more familiar snark than anything. I have done the trips into minimally friendly locales and spent longer than is wise at a Tilted Kilt with small children in order to ensure a healthy buffer for a trip home. This news is nothing but upside for me personally. Perhaps we will encounter one another at a Tesla charging station one day!

itsyogesh 2y ago

The secret lies in the route planning and not the chargers. EV Charging is a discoverability problem, not an infrastructure one. Tesla knows this very well, and just giving access to this infra isn't going to take away anything from them.