4 ms·

> US/EU/Israel isn't perfect, but pretty much as good as it gets. EU maybe, but US/Israel are as good as it gets? PRISM? Literally China/Russia are more trustw

> US/EU/Israel isn't perfect, but pretty much as good as it gets. EU maybe, but US/Israel are as good as it gets? PRISM? Literally China/Russia are more trustworthy.

xvector 2y ago
The EU? Anyone remember Crypto AG? Switzerland, I guess, but Schengen Area regardless.
- shakow 2y ago
  Mexico? Anyone remember Guantanamo? The US I guess, but NAFTA regardless...
  - alext5 2y ago
    Guantanamo bay is in Cuba, definitively not part of NAFTA
- snovv_crash 2y ago
  Thy was what, 40 years ago? China has their great firewall set up today, never mind their social credit systems, automated CCTV citizen tracking systems, etc. Russia has people accidentally falling out of hospital windows or drinking polonium tea. I don't think this is at all comparable.
  - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
    Crypto AG was uncovered and folded in 2018.
  - _tik_ 2y ago
    I checked Wikipedia to learn about the Social Credit System, and according to the article, no such system exists as described. Most assumptions about it seem to be based on misinformation from Western media. Could you clarify what you mean?
nozzlegear 2y ago
> Literally China/Russia are more trustworthy. Why?
- computerex 2y ago
  Because they are just as bad as the US but don't pretend otherwise. Also because the US has gone into aggressive conflicts a lot more than those 2 countries put together.
  - nozzlegear 2y ago
    > Because they are just as bad as the US but don't pretend otherwise. Just as bad in what way? > Also because the US has gone into aggressive conflicts a lot more than those 2 countries put together. How are you defining aggressive conflicts, and at what point do you start counting?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
kelnos 2y ago
> Literally China/Russia are more trustworthy. Only in the sense that, as a US citizen who has no desire to travel to China or Russia, I don't feel all that worried that either country is going to do anything bad to me directly. But if I lived in either one of those places... whooooa boy. I'd have to be a different person to not get in trouble. And I wouldn't call myself much of an activist or pot-stirrer, really. I feel bad for people who want to show public dissent of their government in China or Russia but can't (or do, and end up in jail), and for people in marginalized groups that the government doesn't like.
- dlenski 2y ago
  > > Literally China/Russia are more trustworthy. > > Only in the sense that, as a US citizen who has no desire to travel to China or Russia, I don't feel all that worried that either country is going to do anything bad to me directly. I sort of get this PoV, but on the other hand… If China had any information about you that was valuable for any purpose whatsoever (trade an intelligence tip to a corrupt businessman in a mafia state?) its government could do so with no legal or political safeguards. The US government has legal safeguards against this, and would face _massive_ potential political risk for doing so against one of its own citizens.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    >The US government has legal safeguards against this, and would face _massive_ potential political risk for doing so against one of its own citizens. The US government literally steals cash money from its citizens and faces no repercussions whatsoever. If you carry cash with you in the US, you're in absolute danger of having it confiscated by the police as "drug money" and never seeing it again. You can claim the US has "legal safeguards", but until they're actually tested, it's just a supposition.
    - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
      Local governments do that. I think the US federal government has to follow a different set of more stringent rules.
threeseed 2y ago
> Literally China/Russia are more trustworthy They have no free elections unlike US. They have no free press unlike US. They have no independent judiciary unlike US. They both rank poorly on the corruption index unlike US.
- Sawamara 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - lupusreal 2y ago
    More relevant to this discussion, elections in which both parties accuse the other of insufficient loyalty to a foreign nation, Israel.
  - wazoox 2y ago
    The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them. Julius Nyerere
- account42 2y ago
  > They have no free elections unlike US. The US is a two party system with many hereditary politicians. How free do you think your elections really are? > They have no free press unlike US. How did the US news report on Snownden, Assange and others the US government does not like? The US press is an oligopoly that does barely any real reporting. Theoretical freeness does little here. > They have no independent judiciary unlike US. Which is more than happy to shield the executive from any consequences. Qualified immunity makes this separation meaningless. > They both rank poorly on the corruption index unlike US. According to western definitions of corruption that conveniently do not include corporate lobbying, revolving door relationsships between politics and industry, backdoor laws via trade deals and all the other shadyness that has effectively taken over so-called democracies. But sure, pat yourself on the back for being less likely to get out of a speeding ticket by slipping the officer some cash.
  - nozzlegear 2y ago

> US/EU/Israel isn't perfect, but pretty much as good as it gets. EU maybe, but US/Israel are as good as it gets? PRISM? Literally China/Russia are more trustworthy.

xvector 2y ago

The EU? Anyone remember Crypto AG? Switzerland, I guess, but Schengen Area regardless.

shakow 2y ago
Mexico? Anyone remember Guantanamo? The US I guess, but NAFTA regardless...
- alext5 2y ago
  Guantanamo bay is in Cuba, definitively not part of NAFTA
snovv_crash 2y ago
Thy was what, 40 years ago? China has their great firewall set up today, never mind their social credit systems, automated CCTV citizen tracking systems, etc. Russia has people accidentally falling out of hospital windows or drinking polonium tea. I don't think this is at all comparable.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  Crypto AG was uncovered and folded in 2018.
- _tik_ 2y ago
  I checked Wikipedia to learn about the Social Credit System, and according to the article, no such system exists as described. Most assumptions about it seem to be based on misinformation from Western media. Could you clarify what you mean?

nozzlegear 2y ago

> Literally China/Russia are more trustworthy. Why?

computerex 2y ago
Because they are just as bad as the US but don't pretend otherwise. Also because the US has gone into aggressive conflicts a lot more than those 2 countries put together.
- nozzlegear 2y ago
  > Because they are just as bad as the US but don't pretend otherwise. Just as bad in what way? > Also because the US has gone into aggressive conflicts a lot more than those 2 countries put together. How are you defining aggressive conflicts, and at what point do you start counting?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

kelnos 2y ago

> Literally China/Russia are more trustworthy. Only in the sense that, as a US citizen who has no desire to travel to China or Russia, I don't feel all that worried that either country is going to do anything bad to me directly. But if I lived in either one of those places... whooooa boy. I'd have to be a different person to not get in trouble. And I wouldn't call myself much of an activist or pot-stirrer, really. I feel bad for people who want to show public dissent of their government in China or Russia but can't (or do, and end up in jail), and for people in marginalized groups that the government doesn't like.

dlenski 2y ago
> > Literally China/Russia are more trustworthy. > > Only in the sense that, as a US citizen who has no desire to travel to China or Russia, I don't feel all that worried that either country is going to do anything bad to me directly. I sort of get this PoV, but on the other hand… If China had any information about you that was valuable for any purpose whatsoever (trade an intelligence tip to a corrupt businessman in a mafia state?) its government could do so with no legal or political safeguards. The US government has legal safeguards against this, and would face _massive_ potential political risk for doing so against one of its own citizens.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  >The US government has legal safeguards against this, and would face _massive_ potential political risk for doing so against one of its own citizens. The US government literally steals cash money from its citizens and faces no repercussions whatsoever. If you carry cash with you in the US, you're in absolute danger of having it confiscated by the police as "drug money" and never seeing it again. You can claim the US has "legal safeguards", but until they're actually tested, it's just a supposition.
  - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
    Local governments do that. I think the US federal government has to follow a different set of more stringent rules.

threeseed 2y ago

> Literally China/Russia are more trustworthy They have no free elections unlike US. They have no free press unlike US. They have no independent judiciary unlike US. They both rank poorly on the corruption index unlike US.

Sawamara 2y ago
[flagged]
- lupusreal 2y ago
  More relevant to this discussion, elections in which both parties accuse the other of insufficient loyalty to a foreign nation, Israel.
- wazoox 2y ago
  The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them. Julius Nyerere
account42 2y ago
> They have no free elections unlike US. The US is a two party system with many hereditary politicians. How free do you think your elections really are? > They have no free press unlike US. How did the US news report on Snownden, Assange and others the US government does not like? The US press is an oligopoly that does barely any real reporting. Theoretical freeness does little here. > They have no independent judiciary unlike US. Which is more than happy to shield the executive from any consequences. Qualified immunity makes this separation meaningless. > They both rank poorly on the corruption index unlike US. According to western definitions of corruption that conveniently do not include corporate lobbying, revolving door relationsships between politics and industry, backdoor laws via trade deals and all the other shadyness that has effectively taken over so-called democracies. But sure, pat yourself on the back for being less likely to get out of a speeding ticket by slipping the officer some cash.
- nozzlegear 2y ago