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I'm not really mad at companies for doing this, I'm sad that the same ways are not available to ordinary overtaxed people.
by exabrial 2y ago
I'm not really mad at companies for doing this, I'm sad that the same ways are not available to ordinary overtaxed people.
- dvh 2y agoAs designed
- Mordisquitos 2y agoMaybe part of the reason ordinary people are "overtaxed" is that companies are able to do this.
- yieldcrv 2y agoGiven that 100% tax compliance at the highest rates would not solve any high tax nation’s budget holes You should be asking the same questions that companies are asking: instead of “why arent we getting hosed equally” its “why are we getting hosed at all”
- mystified5016 2y agoCapitalism only works if someone gets hosed. And of course as we all know, the only alternative to capitalism is communism which is scary and evil! Don't you see how good you have it under the hose?
- tirant 2y agoGiven the nature of the human being, there’s no way to live in a free society without someone being hosed. And even then, capitalism has improved the life conditions of those hosed. Communism removes the freedom for everyone and it is effectively hosing everyone at the same time.
- SiempreViernes 2y agoThat's not true, Soviet communism generated wealthy elites just like any other dictatorship, they just didn't have formal wealth.
- apetrov 2y agoIt’s been very tightly intertwined with the position. When you retire, your wealth is gone, and sometimes retirement equals a purge. I wouldn’t call this being among the wealthy elite by any means. Today, you live in the center of Moscow, and tomorrow you’re an ‘enemy of the people’—good luck proving otherwise.
- SiempreViernes 2y ago> and sometimes retirement equals a purge That's just dictatorships man, you gotta keep playing the game well or you end up tortured to death in a salt mine.
- tirant 2y agoThat is right. Communism only brings wealth to those high in their political hierarchy.
- nabla9 2y agoImproving IRS tax collection enforcement could generate significant funds In fiscal year 2021 the IRS managed more than $4.1 trillion in tax revenue. The annual tax gap was estimated at $688 billion in 2021, with $625 billion remaining uncollected even after enforcement efforts. 16.7 percent.
- yieldcrv 2y agoand you don’t realize that this proves my point? ~$5.3 trillion doesn't solve the US’ budget holes, while the US government tells you what transactions to make to not be taxed
- fwip 2y agoThat's the amount of taxes that companies/people legally owe but don't pay (and are collectable). It's not really related to the amount of taxes that are legally avoided by big businesses through techniques like this "double Irish Dutch sandwich."
- intuitionist 2y agoSo collecting all those extra taxes would cover somewhere south of 25% of the budget deficit for 2021. You aren’t wrong, but the parent isn’t wrong either.
- kvgr 2y agoAnd most important questions: why is the government so expensive, do we really need all of this, is it efficient? How is the efficiency evaluated?
- epolanski 2y agoI really despise some of these anarcho capitalist arguments. A society that isn't lifted by redistributing wealth through taxes creates nothing but a more inequal and dangerous society for everyone. We can all argue about inefficiencies, what is the right amount of spending and funding, but redistributing taxes by creating socially needed projects, from roads that you use, to ports through your shipments to policing streets so your daughter is safer when she goes out with friends. The list is so long. People don't even realize how much wealth and prosperity has been created by redistributing wealth through taxes.
- ajsnigrutin 2y ago> A society that isn't lifted by redistributing wealth through taxes creates nothing but a more inequal and dangerous society for everyone. I mean.... the government is taking tax money from the "poor" (so, normal workers, who cannot avoid paying taxes the way the article described, and whatever new way will be used after the changes), and giving them to a few friendly corporations who give back a percentage to politicians and normal peple usually get nothing.
- epolanski 2y agoThis is again worth debating, but many comments here imply that the best amount of taxes is 0. I don't think they realize the kind of place they would end up living in.
- kvgr 2y agoPeople would be mich happier if the taxes were 50% less, the waste and corruption would be gone. And services were at similar level. Right now, US health care is redistributing money from poor people to rich.
- VieEnCode 2y ago“Given that 100% tax compliance at the highest rates would not solve any high tax nation’s budget holes“ Can I ask where this claim originated from please?
- yieldcrv 2y agoyeah absolutely, I look at the nation’s debt load - which it does pay interest on from tax revenues - and its increase of debt load alongside actual spending of debt sale proceeds, and compare that to how much it collects in taxes I use that government’s official sources to do that math Additionally, in some nations, there are underfunded liabilities, future necessary spending And it all far eclipses what the nation makes in revenue from taxes, tariffs and productive industries it owns - if any If there an aspect of accounting that I’m misunderstanding, by all means enlighten me
- lucianbr 2y ago> I use that government’s official sources to do that math You mean the source of the claim is you, you personally did the math for all "high tax nations" whatever those are, and you're presenting the claim without any of the math or explaining any qualifier like "high" from "high tax"? Swell.
- yieldcrv 2y agoI typically look at the US, France, Germany, UK
- fleabagmange 2y agoNo it’s because an un-elected class of political invents new ways to launder our money over and over. How else does a politician with a small salary end u on millionaire over and over? They do not get book and consulting deals out of the goodness of the public hearts
- knodi123 2y agoIt's fine to believe this. But you should be aware it's a partisan political opinion, and it's inflammatory to present it as an objective fact. Is this site really the place for partisan political opinions?
- sensanaty 2y agoHow is it partisan? They mentioned no parties or politicians. What they said applies equally to all politicians regardless of leaning.
- Mountain_Skies 2y ago@knodi123, what is partisan about fleabagmange's statement? They don't mention any politician, political party, or even political ideology.
- AnthonyMouse 2y agoMore to the point, it isn't the politicians of only one party who are getting rich this way.
- 9dev 2y agoWell, apart from medicine, irrigation, health, roads, cheese and education, baths and the Circus Maximus, what have the Romans ever done for us?
- exabrial 2y agoGreat so that’s like .05% off the tax i paid. Whered the rest go
- ErigmolCt 2y agoIt can definitely contribute to the feeling of being stretched thin
- earnesti 2y agoOrdinary people can buy the stock of the said companies and benefit from the tax saved. Probably they already own them through pension funds.
- consp 2y agoOrdinary people do not buy stock. Most people here are in the highest percentile and it shows.
- amarcheschi 2y agoThat take feels kinda... Detached from the average person to me? I don't know how to take it, just like when you hear gates saying a banana cost 10$. Common Joe would benefit much more from taxes being actually paid than profits being accumulated by companies just so they can crush the competition more and earn more and (...)
- thaumasiotes 2y ago> just like when you hear gates saying a banana cost 10$ When was that?
- amarcheschi 2y agoI've never seen a real video, it may as well be a common saying after being on the internet for a so long time. However, there is a video of gates trying to guess grocery prices on the internet, and he's not that bad. I think at this point it's just an internet meme that exist to reference billionaires being disconnected from reality
- thaumasiotes 2y ago> I've never seen a real video, it may as well be a common saying after being on the internet for a so long time. I mean, I can show you the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl_Qyk9DSUw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl_Qyk9DSUw But that has nothing to do with Bill Gates or any other person named Gates. (You might be aware that Bill Gates isn't a woman.) It's a joke on a comedy show. It's not something anyone has ever said.
- toast0 2y agoOrdinary people can't do this because they missed the window, but also because their labor has a clear nexus. This scheme worked because when a product is designed in one locale, built in another, and sold in a third, there's some reasonable question of what the nexus of the income is. Ordinary people that have written books or songs or otherwise earn royalties from creative works on a regular basis could probably have arranged for ownership of their royalties to be owned by a complex corporate structure as well, but I don't know that very many ordinary people earn enough in royalties that tax avoidance is worth the setup and maintenance costs.
- BobbyJo 2y agoI mean, the clear way to deal with this is to make them choose, and allow import tariffs. Get taxed where the nexus is, and pay to bring the value to other jurisdictions. I understand that the web of various tax laws and trade agreements makes this impossible though. 80 years of cruft is too much to sift through to improve things in one fell swoop I suppose.
- lucianbr 2y ago> the clear way to deal with this is to make them choose My understanding is that the whole problem stems from companies being able to choose. Apple chose to pay taxes in Ireland for some things, because Ireland gave them a tax advantage, thus avoiding taxes in other European countries. Allowing import tariffs between EU countries would maybe help with this but cause other problems. The EU free market isn't a whim, it has good reasons to exist and significant benefits. There is no "clear way" to fix this. If there was, it would be used already.
- BobbyJo 2y ago> There is no "clear way" to fix this. If there was, it would be used already. What do you mean by "this"? When I said "this", I meant this specific form of tax avoidance. There is a clear way to fix it, as I mentioned. When you say "this" it seems like you mean tax avoidance in general, in which case I would agree that there is no clear way to fix it.
- epolanski 2y agoI personally am. Because people are often overtaxed due to high tax elusion/avoidance/evasion. E.g. in Italy, around 10 to 15% taxes are evaded in many ways. That bill is then paid by regular taxpayers. If even more people avoided taxes that would just make the issue worse.
- throw310822 2y agoFrankly I don't even understand why companies are taxed at all. Taxes are proportional to individuals' income so that the pain of contributing to the collective good is distributed fairly. Companies don't feel any pleasure or pain, they need money as a commodity- it pays people, investments, innovation, talent. Money and other benefits should be taxed when they are transferred to individuals, not before.
- bandyaboot 2y agoThis seems like a really backward way of thinking. You seem to be advocating for complex tax loopholes to be opened for individuals rather than advocating for simple, but lowered taxes.
- yieldcrv 2y agowhat's backwards about that? driving to the neighboring town for cheaper gas (because the gas tax happens to be lower) is just as legal as these complex multijurisdiction incongruencies yes, I believe car ownership should be more accessible to people to be able to ponder such a drive
- ajsnigrutin 2y agoI understood it more as "the individuals should be taxed the same (so, much lower amount) as corporations". If company X can pay just <small percent> of their income as taxes (all together), why can't random bobby do the same? The law requires you to have a fire extinguisher in your office? Sure, buy one, but since it's a cost of doing business, that money comes from the pre-tax pile and is not taxed extra. The law requires me to wear pants when I go out, why do i have to buy them from post-tax pile of money (so, after ~50% gone to the government), and still pay 9.5% VAT on them? I can buy those same black jeans as a company (eg. consider black jeans a work uniform), and avoid all those taxes). Rent? Pre-tax money for a comoany, post-tax for an individual. In some countries (eg. mine, slovenia) you have even bigger stupidities... you have a CO2 tax (and some other) on gasoline (and other fuels), and you pay VAT on top of that tax... the co2 tax included in the base to calculate the VAT... you literally pay taxes on taxes. Again, businesses don't have to pay that VAT (they deduct it) because well.. they need the company car to do business.
- morpheuskafka 2y agoThe distinction is business vs personal, not company vs individual. A sole trader can usually do avoid income and VAT on all those things (except some deductions pertaining to payroll benefits). Some countries have an alternative arrangement where very small traders pay VAT but also retain VAT on the products they sell rather than actually netting out the VAT on a return.
- Nursie 2y ago> I'm not really mad at companies for doing this I am, regardless of the effect on individuals, it skews the market away from smaller entrants and allows those that have reached enough of a size to be able to afford to play these games to leverage a huge advantage.
- Lio 2y agoAs well as killing local competition there's also the pure hypocrisy of firms such as Apple (and they're not the only offender) passing themselves off as some kind of moral authority whist at the same time aggressively refusing to pay taxes towards hospitals and schools in the local markets they operate in. They can present themselves anyway they like but it does leave a bad taste in the mouth.