11 ms·

Rio: Web apps in pure Python

200 points by doppp 2y ago

adrianpluis 2y ago
Nice work! Joined the discord
miso2024 2y ago
I have always been using Gradio, and it still comes short when it comes to slick UI, even with themes. So it is nice to see solutions like this that has a slicker UI.
atum47 2y ago
Is it the run_in_window() method cross platform? Can you talk a bit more about the implementation?
- Retr0id 2y ago
  afaict it uses https://github.com/r0x0r/pywebview https://github.com/r0x0r/pywebview under the hood (so yes, cross-platform)
  - Sn3llius 2y ago
    Nailed it! We use pywebview. (Rio Dev here.) Local apps run inside of a webview. Think of it like electron but for Python. Even though this _should_ be cross platform, we've unfortunately found a lot of subtle issues with pywebview. That's why we're still considering this to be experimental. In my experience webview works great on Windows, but struggles on Linux. For examples Videos don't play reliably when using the GTK backend. We're looking into other ways to run a browser - my favorite would be to just find one already installed and just start it without UI - but that's some way off.
3l3ktr4 2y ago
Curious to know what you're using under the hood for the python! I've download the repo and a quick search with "pyodide" didn't return anything.
- KeplerBoy 2y ago
  Is python actually executed in the browser or is there a cpython process running on the backend?
  - dncornholio 2y ago
    No, it needs a server to run. This can be a python process or nginx or anything that FastAPI supports, since this seems to be build on top of FastAPI
    - Sn3llius 2y ago
      You nailed it. Built-in components do as much work as possible directly on the client. Any Python code however runs on the server. This makes it dead-simple to e.g. connect to your database and also gives you the full power of real CPython, not just a cut-down WASM/transpiled version.
8organicbits 2y ago
Looks like htpy, but with some components and a different syntax? https://htpy.dev/ https://htpy.dev/
- mlboss 2y ago
  +1 for htpy. Awesome library.
- aitchnyu 2y ago
  Unlike Htpy, this one has callbacks and state in Python.
  - 8organicbits 2y ago
    Storing state in-memory is usually not a good idea for web apps, most use databases with persistence. I got curious and found the example code for implementing password-based authentication on SQLite. I don't think it's very compelling when the alternatives include Django. https://github.com/rio-labs/rio/blob/41a6bb828c2e20eb7fdc5c68b4b7fe58e6bf0a7f/rio/snippets/snippet-files/project-template-Authentication/persistence.py https://github.com/rio-labs/rio/blob/41a6bb828c2e20eb7fdc5c6...
    - timkq 2y ago
      This is just programmers being lazy and essentially reinventing PHP sessions, throwing away years of progress.
DannyPage 2y ago
I love Python, but I also love building web apps in the native language of JS/HTML/CSS. Often times these "build the web in X" solutions are amalgamating that language into code that looks almost like HTML or JS, just with a Python flavor. I would love to hear from someone who used to do full-stack and now has moved mostly into a solution like Rio?
babyyoda 2y ago
When building a full fledged web app I prefer JavaScript - when I do want to do more in Python I find Streamlit is a perfect fit for Python native, low code, but not trying to do too much
Sai_Praneeth 2y ago
Nice! How does it compare to https://fastht.ml/ https://fastht.ml/
gmaster1440 2y ago
I've enjoyed working with Reflex (https://reflex.dev https://reflex.dev) as a pure Python wrapper over React.
- vishnudeva 2y ago
  +1 for Reflex. Truly amazing.
  - greener_grass 2y ago
    How is it writing React without multi-line lambdas? They are everywhere in JavaScript and I couldn't imagine my day-to-day without them!
    - Retr0id 2y ago
      Rio components are classes, so you could create a named class method and reference it. Obviously not the same thing as multi-line lambdas but it'd be the pythonic approach imho.
    - vishnudeva 2y ago
      I think my answer: I have no idea what multi-line lambdas are, probably explains why I find Reflex (or Rio/Streamlit, etc) amazing, haha For a person with zero front-end knowledge, it's a game changer.
      - greener_grass 2y ago
        In JavaScript you can do this: const f = (x, y) => { const z = x + y; const w = z * 2; return z - w + x; }; In Python, you cannot do this: f = ( lambda x, y: z = x + y; w = z * 2; return z - w + x; ) Instead, you need to pull it out into a def: def f(x, y): z = x + y; w = z * 2; return z - w + x; Sometimes, this is no big deal. But other times, it's damn annoying; the language forces you to lay out your code in a less intuitive way for no obvious benefit.
pjmlp 2y ago
This kind "you don't need JavaScript, HTML and CSS" approach always fails flat. We already went down this route several times since the first dotcom wave and all the frameworks that tried to target the browser as if we don't need to know "JavaScript, HTML and CSS". Until we need to debug the application, or why it isn't rendering as it should. It is also why I am not a big fan of Blazor, even though I admire its engineering effort.
- dncornholio 2y ago
  It fails flat when you want to go beyond to scope of the framework. But for teaching programming or quick prototyping or some raspberry project, these are pretty great.
- mattgreenrocks 2y ago
  Not sure I agree. What makes the presentation layer of HTML/JS/CSS so different from Win32 of yore, which had VB? VB enabled a LOT of bespoke monstrosities, but it let you do things quickly and easily. We need something like that for the web. There will always be essential complexity in dealing with the client/server nature of web apps. But there's still a lot of incidental complexity that can be burned off.
  - worewood 2y ago
    > What makes the presentation layer of HTML/JS/CSS so different from Win32 of yore, which had VB? From my experience: besides both Win32 and VB being from the same entity (Microsoft), which helps a lot, what we had basically were VB bindings for the underlying Win32 library. This Rio project seems more analogous to a library that tries to do an abstraction on top of Win32, like wxWidgets or Java's AWT. They work but the end results always seem a bit "off". And unlike Win32, web technologies are moving targets and any assumptions one makes may be wrong some browser updates down the line... and there's where the nightmare comes
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Because of the rendering features provided by HTML, CSS and JavaScript semantics. That is why Flash became so loved by Web designers, allowing them to target a rendering surface, completely bypassing the browser. Also why we are now having Flash's revenge with WebGL/WebGPU/WebAssembly. However the "until you have to debug it" still applies, unless you ship the browser with the application, but that isn't something people usually do. /s
pmarreck 2y ago
Are there any other frameworks that have similar ideas, perhaps using a functional language?
- airstrike 2y ago
  If you count Rust as a "functional language", my personal favorite is iced, which is bloody brilliant and blazing fast https://github.com/iced-rs/iced https://github.com/iced-rs/iced It's desktop-first but compiles to WASM It's honestly "just Rust", so I guess if you're looking for a DSL-type declarative, it doesn't quite fit the bill... but there are design reasons for why it's "just rust" and honestly I much prefer it. It still feels declarative enough
  - kitkat_new 2y ago
    slint is more declarative, supports Rust and Python
    - airstrike 2y ago
      I prefer less declarative
- patrickmay 2y ago
  If you choose to use Common Lisp as a functional language, CLOG is available: https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog
- zem 2y ago
  elixir's liveview is perhaps the best known and arguably inspired a lot of the ones in other languages
  - pmarreck 2y ago
    yes but doesn't that expect view code that looks a lot like HTML and is usually styled with Tailwind?
tambourine_man 2y ago
Why the name Rio? Couldn't find in the docs
red_hare 2y ago
These frameworks are cute, and I understand the desire to avoid the modern SPA JavaScript build systems, but it always seems like so much more work than just writing HTML. I swear, HTML/CSS + Flask + HTMX gets you so far these days. Then, you can throw in some AlpineJS for any inter-element interaction you need and build a responsive SPA without almost any JavaScript.
- Sn3llius 2y ago
  Rio Dev here. I can see where you're coming from. Seeing an experience web-dev work can be mindblowingly fast. But there's two sides to each story - there's tons of developers that are experts in their own fields but that aren't familiar with web technologies. That's where frameworks like Rio, streamlit, reflex, etc. come in. We've been getting a lot of reactions from people being surprised how quickly they can create Rio apps after just a few hours, when previously creating UIs was always a major roadblock for them. Seeing these reactions has been extremely rewarding.
- spankalee 2y ago
  And you don't even need build systems for modern SPAs. You can write web components in plain JS, load JS and CSS with standard module imports. Use bare import specifiers with import maps. Things have gotten much simpler.
- fkyoureadthedoc 2y ago
  Alpine is great for your blog, but it's not even a little bit tempting for real world professional projects. Looking back at every project I've worked on there's no shot I would ever select Alpine for any of them. These type of condescending comments really scream "I'm not even a web developer but here's my strong opinion as someone who only makes toy front ends to demo my data work"
  - zem 2y ago
    would you use one of these python-to-web frameworks like rio though? I think gp was just saying alpine was a good alternative to that.
igtztorrero 2y ago
Good for python developers without JavaScript knowledge, but your app will be attached to a fixed same graphic style.
- Sn3llius 2y ago
  Rio dev here. You're right in that all Rio components use Material Design, but there is still room for configuration. I can't post pictures here, but if you check our discord, somebody has made a full-retro website that doesn't look material-y at all. In addition to high-level components there's also some very basic building blocks, like a humble Rectangle. By combining these in clever ways you can get more styles than you might originally expect - just like everything on the web is ultimately colored boxes.
mike_hearn 2y ago
Another rather unconventional way to do this, though it can be powerful, is to combine GraalPython, JavaFX and jpro.one: https://www.jpro.one https://www.jpro.one The primary advantage is that the built in set of components is pretty powerful (e.g. a real table view), everything runs server side, the Python can be JIT compiled, and from the user's POV it still feels like a web app (e.g. zoom is respected). You can "shell out" to Javascript if needed, you can use Java libraries. The JPro website is itself a JavaFX app running as a web app. Also there's a visual UI builder that's decent (and free). Primary downside beyond just the obscurity of the stack (same problem as for Rio), is just that JPro is a commercial solution. But then you get commercial support and bug fixes in case you need something special or hit an obscure rendering case.
- mwcampbell 2y ago
  I should caution that the jpro.one home page has some pretty obvious screen reader accessibility issues. Assuming the website is rendered with the framework itself, I wouldn't be comfortable using that framework in a real application unless someone did a comprehensive accessibility audit first.
montebicyclelo 2y ago
Nice, I guess a more established framework for writing webapps in Python is Streamlit, which is pretty good - minimal syntax can create quite an advanced, "reactive", GUI. It's very quick to throw together functional / relatively complex stuff with. But it's also very opinionated, so all Streamlit apps tend to have a similar look. Also it's more aimed at ML demos, for a few, non-persistent users, rather than for large apps with persistant users, etc. Wonder how this compares.
maipen 2y ago
Every framework, requires a learning curve. You need to spend time learning how it works, what are it's limitations and what not. The newer it is, the fewer components, help and support you have at your dispose. I don't like these frameworks because it tempts people to learn something that isn't going to get mainstream adoption. We already have to be careful when choosing a framework like React, vue, svelte etc... Are you building a side project? You probably should just do it with what you already know, it's gonna be faster and probably better. Not saying we shouldn't try new things or build new ways of doing stuff, but in this case you are not really running your python code on the web, your running compiled js,html and css... I much rather choose something that allows me to write vanilla js with some extra features like signals.
- ramon156 2y ago
  What would solve these issues is backwards compatibility. I want to be able to write a full JS/HTML app, a full "framework specific" solution, and anything in between. Let me migrate my current project into the new framework and see what the experience is like. Let me hack some stuff together for fun, only then I'll consider the framework.
meehai 2y ago
how does this compare to streamlit ?
bnchrch 2y ago
While I'm not certain if the world needs more Javascript, I am certain it does not need more Python.
- imiric 2y ago
  That's overly harsh IMO. Python is not perfect—no language is—but it arguably has the lowest barrier to entry for new programmers, with far fewer "wats" than languages of its kind and era (certainly less than JS). Sure, its reference implementation is not the most performant, but it easily interoperates with C/C++, and alternative implementations like PyPy are also relatively easy to switch to, so it can be performant when it needs to. Dynamic typing is not great for maintaining large codebases, but with the advent of gradual typing, this shouldn't be a major hindrance anymore. It has a great standard library, and a huge ecosystem. My only major gripe with it is the packaging and the insane amount of tooling around it, which I doubt will ever be resolved at this point. But Python is not so bad overall.
  - bnchrch 2y ago
    I don't know if its overly harsh, but ill give you harsh. The thing is Python deserves all the hate JS gets and more. 1. The foot guns are real and mean (look up Mutable Default Arguments) 2. The language pushes beginners towards some bad habits (Deep inheritance) and away from good ones (Functional) 3. The performance is very poor (both single and multi threaded) 4. There are no real safe guards, and unexpected type behaviour 5. The packaging story is archaic with no fix in site. (There exist no standard out of the box way to guarantee deterministic builds) Sure its good at Data, but that is a cultural accident, not by design.
  - timkq 2y ago
    "Dynamic typing is not great for maintaining large codebases" - when your language has an option to not use types, most SWEs will NOT use them - I experienced this firsthand (Angular TS codebases littered with "any" types - direct equivalent analogy to Python in this case). I heard the saying, "you can only burn yourself so many times" - but this seems to be untrue in this case - it's as infinite as human stupidity is. Ecosystem is great - and probably the greatest thing Python has to offer after the aforementioned low barrier to entry. No language comes close if one wants to get up & going and try out AI/ML - whether using an API or using some packages to make models of one's own - it has everything one can ever need.
ZeroCool2u 2y ago
This looks almost identical to Dash. Any meaningful difference here? https://dash.plotly.com/ https://dash.plotly.com/
weakfish 2y ago
I would hesitate to label anything Python as “type-safe” per the README - maybe type-conscious or just “typed Python”
insane_dreamer 2y ago
I love a framework that replaces JS with Python. I'm less certain about replacing HTML/CSS with Python?
- joshdavham 2y ago
  Me too, but I’m curious where this could lead!
surfingdino 2y ago
It's amazing how much you can build without resorting to those fancy frameworks if you dedicate some time to learning Django and how its views work. You do not need a SPA, you need a working app that looks good.
- robertoandred 2y ago
  Why would I want to dedicate time to learning Django when I can just use a simple React framework?
- mrweasel 2y ago
  In general I'm not convinced that these "no Javacript" frameworks will last, and to some extend you going to have to re-learn a lot. That's not to say that the idea isn't interesting. While I have no idea how this would work, I think it would be more useful to have tools like this as a sort of template language for something like Django or Flask. So you get the mature frameworks on the backend and something like Rio to generate the backend, within the context of Django/Flask/Bottle/whatever. Some modern web applications do need VueJS, React, something like that. CRUD apps mostly don't, but we are way past CRUD apps for a lot of thing. You can maybe get away with calling Asana and Jira CRUD apps, but you can't do Figma with just Django.
  - surfingdino 2y ago
    Agreed. There are legitimate cases for using SPAs, but often CRUD will suffice.
fmnxl 2y ago
You'd need to re-invent the wheel on so many things. Flexbox layout? CSS animations? Some custom npm library that I need to use to provide social logins, SDKs to integrate payment gateways? etc etc If all you want is just a set of UI components, sure. We already have plenty of UI libraries out there. These days there are many better ways to write low-JS, low-boilerplate code. HTMX for interactivity, UnoCSS for generated CSS on the fly. It's even possible not to bundle your ES6 modules these days, with <script type="importmap">.
fsndz 2y ago
I will start using this once a startup raises millions in VC funding and their whole app is built with this.
- apetuskey 2y ago
  https://reflex.dev/ https://reflex.dev/ is all made in Reflex and has raised a seed round! There are also a few YC companies using Reflex that have raised seed rounds too.
- tempest_ 2y ago
  The VC bit is the entire reason I would not use something like this. Just waiting for them to want their money out and then I am stuck deep in a product fast headed for enshitifaction or abandonment when it fails to make a billion dollars in 2 years.
ag_rin 2y ago
I feel like you’re getting a lot of pushback on this and I’m going to go out and say this is cool and I’m glad people continue to try to innovate on the webdev experience. The way I see it is building apps somewhat similarly to SwiftUI is actually a pretty good idea. If you have established rules for how each container expands or fills its content you can build a great web app development experience without getting down into css and html explicitly. Just Vbox container Hbox container text container etc. I can certainly see a niche for this as it is a different style of UI development. I’ve never been great as a UI designer so doing it in the traditional web stack has always been even harder but I’ve found that with SwiftUI I can usually get 90% of a good look very quickly.
- jhot 2y ago
  I spend 95% of my work time doing backend python microservices for internal tools, 5% on terraform for the infrastructure, and 0.0001% of my time building frontends for these tools (I just use plain html and JS, and only add a frontend when absolutely necessary). I've build a react app for fun in the past just to learn how that works but if I had to do it again for work I would basically have to go through the entire learning process again. So, something like this where I'm writing pure python for my web components could really save me a lot of that churn time, not to mention that many of my coworkers have absolutely no JS experience. I have an upcoming task to build a new frontend and am going to add in a couple days to try this out to see if it meets our needs.
davepeck 2y ago
I'm excited to see more projects like Rio exploring the full-stack python web dev space. There are definitely categories of users for which the approach makes sense. --- For me personally -- and I'm guessing for a bunch of other HNers -- writing full-stack web apps strictly in python is a non-goal. I've settled on a comfortable (for me) stack for smaller projects that need python on the backend that combines: 1. Litestar (or another lightweight HTTP framework of choice like flask, etc.) 2. HTMX 3. htpy.dev (an in-python HTML builder) 4. Custom web components implemented in a plain-old JavaScript ES6 module loaded directly by the browser A typical project only needs a handful of components. HTMX and htpy.dev both play very nicely with web components. When I want zero build steps, I write plain JavaScript + JSDoc comments. JSDoc is... okay-ish, but it ain't no typescript. If I need a database, I'll grab SQLAlchemy. I wish there were a mature lightweight solution here; maybe Tortoise ORM will get there soon? There's nothing in this stack that couldn't strictly be done in javascript-land. JSX syntax with HTMX is pretty great and much better than any in-python HTML builder. But often my projects have other requirements (like ML) where python is, at least today, inevitable.
- synergy20 2y ago
  Hopefully JSX can be more mainstream, that is, I can use it directly in js/html/css projects without all the extra tools pre-installed and pre-configured, making jsx part of the 'vanilla' development will be really nice(no react, no vuejs etc).
  - timkq 2y ago
    I agree about the JSX part - but the thing about real dev is that you have to use all the tools you can, so you don't have to reinvent the wheel. Nobody's still making Windows-only GUI apps using the Win32 API - it's easier and all, but there's so much stuff you have to code yourself that it's simpler to learn a GUI library/framework and Just Use That. I had a quick glance at HTMX - and it seems to just be going backwards (similar to Go - the language is so simple that it's actually hard to code real stuff in it). Why should I make an API that's essentially web only (because you have to send back HTML from the server using HTMX) if I can just use JSON/Protobuf/etc. and with just a few build tools I can automatically generate functions that I can call directly in JS. Sure, it's easier to build a website with plain JS (and by that HTMX, which is glorified plain JS) but this is the real world.
bityard 2y ago
It's a bit sad that most of the comments here are negative. Most of them seem to be some variation of, "Nobody needs a tool like this, all you have to do is simply dedicate yourself to multiple years of writing corporate CRUD apps in both vanilla soul-crushing Javascript and web frameworks. You know, like I did." So, I am the target audience of this. I have a LOT of experience writing tools and automation and that is where most of my Python knowledge comes from. I am not an expert Python programmer, but I am competent. But sometimes, I have an idea for writing a web application that would greatly improve my day-to-day life in some way. I know exactly what I want it to do, I know exactly what I want it to look like. I have already designed the API in my head, and could probably write the bulk of the Flask code in under an hour. Maybe a couple of hours if you want tests. But what I DON'T have is the time to learn is the vagaries of HTML+CSS layout and internalize the Great Lessons of the last 20 years of JS development history. I have consciously stayed away from (non-trivial) web development because the tooling and patterns change almost daily. But the old stuff is not replaced, it is simply bolted on top of. And you have to know the WHOLE stack in order to troubleshoot most any part of it. Waking up one morning and saying, "I know a fair amount about computers, I want to write a web application," is just about as fanciful as saying, "I know a fair amount about airplanes, I want to design a jet engine." Rio devs, thank you for releasing this as open source. I look forward to checking it out. Even if it doesn't pan out for me, I appreciate that you took a crack at it.
- darepublic 2y ago
  Ok that's great. I guess I'm just skeptical you won't have to either A. Settle for premade layouts B. Learn some CSS like specification of custom styles. And that is where you get sucked into the rabbit hole
  - thunky 2y ago
    > Settle for premade layouts Just think of how many man years we could have saved if we did this.
    - DrillShopper 2y ago
darepublic 2y ago
To be fair a lot of small startups could benefit from forgoing custom CSS styles for very straightforward frontend dev. So much money wasted on react devs imho (including myself)
- robertoandred 2y ago
  Don't hire a React dev, hire a web dev.
joshdavham 2y ago
Looks cool! But I'm wondering who the target audience is. Most web devs prefer javascript. Are you hoping to target data scientists to build data apps, for example?
- Sn3llius 2y ago
  Exactly! We've seen from personal experience just how many people are currently working on AI/datascience projects and would love to create UIs for them, but just can't. That's exactly who Rio is for - people who are experts in one field, and don't want to invest hours and hours into other languages just to create interfaces for what they're working on.
  - joshdavham 2y ago
    That’s really smart. I was previously a data scientist who only knew python and made the transition last year to become a full stack web dev and I honestly had no idea what I was in for. I probably won’t use your tool, but I’ll happily recommend other data scientists check it out so they don’t have to go through what I did.
kitkat_new 2y ago
I probably don't want to know about the performance implications
quantadev 2y ago
The biggest tragedy in the history of software engineering was back in the mid 1990s when they failed to get Java (Applets) to run in the browser so they had to invent JavaScript, which was purely nothing but a hack put together over a weekend by one guy and it "stuck" like napalm onto humanity and has been burning us ever since. I would say at least one billion man hours (100 billion? Trillion?) has been wasted trying to contend with all the ugliness that ensued. Even the most popular language today on the web TypeScript only has one reason for existing: To try to continue to work around this napalm fire, in some semblance of a tolerable way. Sure I love TypeScript, and use it every day, because it's the best solution to the current dumpster fire, but I'd like to get away from dumpsters some day. So it's really refreshing to see something good being done to replace this mess we call "Web Development"
- mixmastamyk 2y ago
  Applets did run in the browser, I wrote a couple.
  - quantadev 2y ago
    I wrote lots of Applets too. My parenthetical "(Applets)" in that post was misleading, sorry. Java and Applets pre-existed JavaScript, and purely due to a 10 day timing constraint put on him by Netscape management (right after their deal with Sun Microsystems), Brendan Eich, wanting a Java-syntax, but not having enough time to do it right, cobbled together JavaScript instead.
    - wiseowise 2y ago
      > and purely due to a 10 day timing constraint put on him by Netscape management (right after their deal with Sun Microsystems), Brendan Eich, wanting a Java-syntax, but not having enough time to do it right, cobbled together JavaScript instead. Stop spreading FUD. You have no idea what you’re talking about. Stuff that people hate wasn’t even part of the original demo. https://buttondown.com/hillelwayne/archive/did-brendan-eich-really-make-javascript-in-10-days/ https://buttondown.com/hillelwayne/archive/did-brendan-eich-...
chirau 2y ago
Is the rio.dev website built with Rio?
- Technetium 2y ago
  "Once your components are ready, you can mix and match them to create entire web applications. Even this entire website is written in Rio."
senko 2y ago
I am definitely target audience for this. I am often in need of building internal tools, dashboards - simple apps with simple UI that doesn't need to be unique, drive engagement, or whatever. It needs to get the job done and let me move on. Streamlit is close but the peculiar approach they take (rerun the script) makes it unwieldly for more complex apps (say, a few related pages, a few dozen components each). I've been looking for a way to just let me do "GUI app in Python" that get delivered over HTTP and rendered in browser, and Rio is exactly what I was hoping for. Yeah, no chance Meta will rewrite FB frontend to use Rio. Also pretty sure that I won't be doing any fancy websites in it. But if I can skip dealing with React/Vue/HTMX/whatever on the frontend for some internal thingy. I only tried doing some simple stuff but so far I really like what I see!
abdullahkhalids 2y ago
How difficult is it to add authentication in this framework? How many lines of code? How secure? None of the python->web projects have this.
- timkq 2y ago
  I agree with your sentiment. There's so many non-JS/TS frontend webapp frameworks (using either Kotlin, Go, Python, etc. - not even talking about the WASM ones) - but they all come to a halt once they actually need to use those frameworks besides writing a simple blog site, HN reader, etc.
marcelr 2y ago
so, uh, how does this work? liveview kinda deal? python to js compiler? something else? it drives me nuts when this isn’t in the readme, or from what i can find the docs this is a major implementation detail that will determine the usecases for apps written in rio
somesun 2y ago
there are maybe 50 web framework / app builder in python just like there are new frameworks everyday in javascript

200 points by doppp 2y ago

Nice work! Joined the discord

miso2024 2y ago

I have always been using Gradio, and it still comes short when it comes to slick UI, even with themes. So it is nice to see solutions like this that has a slicker UI.

atum47 2y ago

Is it the run_in_window() method cross platform? Can you talk a bit more about the implementation?

Retr0id 2y ago
afaict it uses https://github.com/r0x0r/pywebview https://github.com/r0x0r/pywebview under the hood (so yes, cross-platform)
- Sn3llius 2y ago
  Nailed it! We use pywebview. (Rio Dev here.) Local apps run inside of a webview. Think of it like electron but for Python. Even though this _should_ be cross platform, we've unfortunately found a lot of subtle issues with pywebview. That's why we're still considering this to be experimental. In my experience webview works great on Windows, but struggles on Linux. For examples Videos don't play reliably when using the GTK backend. We're looking into other ways to run a browser - my favorite would be to just find one already installed and just start it without UI - but that's some way off.

3l3ktr4 2y ago

Curious to know what you're using under the hood for the python! I've download the repo and a quick search with "pyodide" didn't return anything.

KeplerBoy 2y ago
Is python actually executed in the browser or is there a cpython process running on the backend?
- dncornholio 2y ago
  No, it needs a server to run. This can be a python process or nginx or anything that FastAPI supports, since this seems to be build on top of FastAPI
  - Sn3llius 2y ago
    You nailed it. Built-in components do as much work as possible directly on the client. Any Python code however runs on the server. This makes it dead-simple to e.g. connect to your database and also gives you the full power of real CPython, not just a cut-down WASM/transpiled version.

8organicbits 2y ago

Looks like htpy, but with some components and a different syntax? https://htpy.dev/ https://htpy.dev/

mlboss 2y ago
+1 for htpy. Awesome library.
aitchnyu 2y ago
Unlike Htpy, this one has callbacks and state in Python.
- 8organicbits 2y ago
  Storing state in-memory is usually not a good idea for web apps, most use databases with persistence. I got curious and found the example code for implementing password-based authentication on SQLite. I don't think it's very compelling when the alternatives include Django. https://github.com/rio-labs/rio/blob/41a6bb828c2e20eb7fdc5c68b4b7fe58e6bf0a7f/rio/snippets/snippet-files/project-template-Authentication/persistence.py https://github.com/rio-labs/rio/blob/41a6bb828c2e20eb7fdc5c6...
  - timkq 2y ago
    This is just programmers being lazy and essentially reinventing PHP sessions, throwing away years of progress.

DannyPage 2y ago

I love Python, but I also love building web apps in the native language of JS/HTML/CSS. Often times these "build the web in X" solutions are amalgamating that language into code that looks almost like HTML or JS, just with a Python flavor. I would love to hear from someone who used to do full-stack and now has moved mostly into a solution like Rio?

babyyoda 2y ago

When building a full fledged web app I prefer JavaScript - when I do want to do more in Python I find Streamlit is a perfect fit for Python native, low code, but not trying to do too much

Sai_Praneeth 2y ago

Nice! How does it compare to https://fastht.ml/ https://fastht.ml/

gmaster1440 2y ago

I've enjoyed working with Reflex (https://reflex.dev https://reflex.dev) as a pure Python wrapper over React.

vishnudeva 2y ago
+1 for Reflex. Truly amazing.
- greener_grass 2y ago
  How is it writing React without multi-line lambdas? They are everywhere in JavaScript and I couldn't imagine my day-to-day without them!
  - Retr0id 2y ago
    Rio components are classes, so you could create a named class method and reference it. Obviously not the same thing as multi-line lambdas but it'd be the pythonic approach imho.
  - vishnudeva 2y ago
    I think my answer: I have no idea what multi-line lambdas are, probably explains why I find Reflex (or Rio/Streamlit, etc) amazing, haha For a person with zero front-end knowledge, it's a game changer.
    - greener_grass 2y ago
      In JavaScript you can do this: const f = (x, y) => { const z = x + y; const w = z * 2; return z - w + x; }; In Python, you cannot do this: f = ( lambda x, y: z = x + y; w = z * 2; return z - w + x; ) Instead, you need to pull it out into a def: def f(x, y): z = x + y; w = z * 2; return z - w + x; Sometimes, this is no big deal. But other times, it's damn annoying; the language forces you to lay out your code in a less intuitive way for no obvious benefit.

pjmlp 2y ago

This kind "you don't need JavaScript, HTML and CSS" approach always fails flat. We already went down this route several times since the first dotcom wave and all the frameworks that tried to target the browser as if we don't need to know "JavaScript, HTML and CSS". Until we need to debug the application, or why it isn't rendering as it should. It is also why I am not a big fan of Blazor, even though I admire its engineering effort.

dncornholio 2y ago
It fails flat when you want to go beyond to scope of the framework. But for teaching programming or quick prototyping or some raspberry project, these are pretty great.
mattgreenrocks 2y ago
Not sure I agree. What makes the presentation layer of HTML/JS/CSS so different from Win32 of yore, which had VB? VB enabled a LOT of bespoke monstrosities, but it let you do things quickly and easily. We need something like that for the web. There will always be essential complexity in dealing with the client/server nature of web apps. But there's still a lot of incidental complexity that can be burned off.
- worewood 2y ago
  > What makes the presentation layer of HTML/JS/CSS so different from Win32 of yore, which had VB? From my experience: besides both Win32 and VB being from the same entity (Microsoft), which helps a lot, what we had basically were VB bindings for the underlying Win32 library. This Rio project seems more analogous to a library that tries to do an abstraction on top of Win32, like wxWidgets or Java's AWT. They work but the end results always seem a bit "off". And unlike Win32, web technologies are moving targets and any assumptions one makes may be wrong some browser updates down the line... and there's where the nightmare comes
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Because of the rendering features provided by HTML, CSS and JavaScript semantics. That is why Flash became so loved by Web designers, allowing them to target a rendering surface, completely bypassing the browser. Also why we are now having Flash's revenge with WebGL/WebGPU/WebAssembly. However the "until you have to debug it" still applies, unless you ship the browser with the application, but that isn't something people usually do. /s

pmarreck 2y ago

Are there any other frameworks that have similar ideas, perhaps using a functional language?

airstrike 2y ago
If you count Rust as a "functional language", my personal favorite is iced, which is bloody brilliant and blazing fast https://github.com/iced-rs/iced https://github.com/iced-rs/iced It's desktop-first but compiles to WASM It's honestly "just Rust", so I guess if you're looking for a DSL-type declarative, it doesn't quite fit the bill... but there are design reasons for why it's "just rust" and honestly I much prefer it. It still feels declarative enough
- kitkat_new 2y ago
  slint is more declarative, supports Rust and Python
  - airstrike 2y ago
    I prefer less declarative
patrickmay 2y ago
If you choose to use Common Lisp as a functional language, CLOG is available: https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog
zem 2y ago
elixir's liveview is perhaps the best known and arguably inspired a lot of the ones in other languages
- pmarreck 2y ago
  yes but doesn't that expect view code that looks a lot like HTML and is usually styled with Tailwind?

tambourine_man 2y ago

Why the name Rio? Couldn't find in the docs

red_hare 2y ago

These frameworks are cute, and I understand the desire to avoid the modern SPA JavaScript build systems, but it always seems like so much more work than just writing HTML. I swear, HTML/CSS + Flask + HTMX gets you so far these days. Then, you can throw in some AlpineJS for any inter-element interaction you need and build a responsive SPA without almost any JavaScript.

Sn3llius 2y ago
Rio Dev here. I can see where you're coming from. Seeing an experience web-dev work can be mindblowingly fast. But there's two sides to each story - there's tons of developers that are experts in their own fields but that aren't familiar with web technologies. That's where frameworks like Rio, streamlit, reflex, etc. come in. We've been getting a lot of reactions from people being surprised how quickly they can create Rio apps after just a few hours, when previously creating UIs was always a major roadblock for them. Seeing these reactions has been extremely rewarding.
spankalee 2y ago
And you don't even need build systems for modern SPAs. You can write web components in plain JS, load JS and CSS with standard module imports. Use bare import specifiers with import maps. Things have gotten much simpler.
fkyoureadthedoc 2y ago
Alpine is great for your blog, but it's not even a little bit tempting for real world professional projects. Looking back at every project I've worked on there's no shot I would ever select Alpine for any of them. These type of condescending comments really scream "I'm not even a web developer but here's my strong opinion as someone who only makes toy front ends to demo my data work"
- zem 2y ago
  would you use one of these python-to-web frameworks like rio though? I think gp was just saying alpine was a good alternative to that.

igtztorrero 2y ago

Good for python developers without JavaScript knowledge, but your app will be attached to a fixed same graphic style.

Sn3llius 2y ago
Rio dev here. You're right in that all Rio components use Material Design, but there is still room for configuration. I can't post pictures here, but if you check our discord, somebody has made a full-retro website that doesn't look material-y at all. In addition to high-level components there's also some very basic building blocks, like a humble Rectangle. By combining these in clever ways you can get more styles than you might originally expect - just like everything on the web is ultimately colored boxes.

mike_hearn 2y ago

Another rather unconventional way to do this, though it can be powerful, is to combine GraalPython, JavaFX and jpro.one: https://www.jpro.one https://www.jpro.one The primary advantage is that the built in set of components is pretty powerful (e.g. a real table view), everything runs server side, the Python can be JIT compiled, and from the user's POV it still feels like a web app (e.g. zoom is respected). You can "shell out" to Javascript if needed, you can use Java libraries. The JPro website is itself a JavaFX app running as a web app. Also there's a visual UI builder that's decent (and free). Primary downside beyond just the obscurity of the stack (same problem as for Rio), is just that JPro is a commercial solution. But then you get commercial support and bug fixes in case you need something special or hit an obscure rendering case.

mwcampbell 2y ago
I should caution that the jpro.one home page has some pretty obvious screen reader accessibility issues. Assuming the website is rendered with the framework itself, I wouldn't be comfortable using that framework in a real application unless someone did a comprehensive accessibility audit first.

montebicyclelo 2y ago

Nice, I guess a more established framework for writing webapps in Python is Streamlit, which is pretty good - minimal syntax can create quite an advanced, "reactive", GUI. It's very quick to throw together functional / relatively complex stuff with. But it's also very opinionated, so all Streamlit apps tend to have a similar look. Also it's more aimed at ML demos, for a few, non-persistent users, rather than for large apps with persistant users, etc. Wonder how this compares.

maipen 2y ago

Every framework, requires a learning curve. You need to spend time learning how it works, what are it's limitations and what not. The newer it is, the fewer components, help and support you have at your dispose. I don't like these frameworks because it tempts people to learn something that isn't going to get mainstream adoption. We already have to be careful when choosing a framework like React, vue, svelte etc... Are you building a side project? You probably should just do it with what you already know, it's gonna be faster and probably better. Not saying we shouldn't try new things or build new ways of doing stuff, but in this case you are not really running your python code on the web, your running compiled js,html and css... I much rather choose something that allows me to write vanilla js with some extra features like signals.

ramon156 2y ago
What would solve these issues is backwards compatibility. I want to be able to write a full JS/HTML app, a full "framework specific" solution, and anything in between. Let me migrate my current project into the new framework and see what the experience is like. Let me hack some stuff together for fun, only then I'll consider the framework.

meehai 2y ago

how does this compare to streamlit ?

bnchrch 2y ago

While I'm not certain if the world needs more Javascript, I am certain it does not need more Python.

imiric 2y ago
That's overly harsh IMO. Python is not perfect—no language is—but it arguably has the lowest barrier to entry for new programmers, with far fewer "wats" than languages of its kind and era (certainly less than JS). Sure, its reference implementation is not the most performant, but it easily interoperates with C/C++, and alternative implementations like PyPy are also relatively easy to switch to, so it can be performant when it needs to. Dynamic typing is not great for maintaining large codebases, but with the advent of gradual typing, this shouldn't be a major hindrance anymore. It has a great standard library, and a huge ecosystem. My only major gripe with it is the packaging and the insane amount of tooling around it, which I doubt will ever be resolved at this point. But Python is not so bad overall.
- bnchrch 2y ago
  I don't know if its overly harsh, but ill give you harsh. The thing is Python deserves all the hate JS gets and more. 1. The foot guns are real and mean (look up Mutable Default Arguments) 2. The language pushes beginners towards some bad habits (Deep inheritance) and away from good ones (Functional) 3. The performance is very poor (both single and multi threaded) 4. There are no real safe guards, and unexpected type behaviour 5. The packaging story is archaic with no fix in site. (There exist no standard out of the box way to guarantee deterministic builds) Sure its good at Data, but that is a cultural accident, not by design.
- timkq 2y ago
  "Dynamic typing is not great for maintaining large codebases" - when your language has an option to not use types, most SWEs will NOT use them - I experienced this firsthand (Angular TS codebases littered with "any" types - direct equivalent analogy to Python in this case). I heard the saying, "you can only burn yourself so many times" - but this seems to be untrue in this case - it's as infinite as human stupidity is. Ecosystem is great - and probably the greatest thing Python has to offer after the aforementioned low barrier to entry. No language comes close if one wants to get up & going and try out AI/ML - whether using an API or using some packages to make models of one's own - it has everything one can ever need.

ZeroCool2u 2y ago

This looks almost identical to Dash. Any meaningful difference here? https://dash.plotly.com/ https://dash.plotly.com/

weakfish 2y ago

I would hesitate to label anything Python as “type-safe” per the README - maybe type-conscious or just “typed Python”

insane_dreamer 2y ago

I love a framework that replaces JS with Python. I'm less certain about replacing HTML/CSS with Python?

joshdavham 2y ago
Me too, but I’m curious where this could lead!

surfingdino 2y ago

It's amazing how much you can build without resorting to those fancy frameworks if you dedicate some time to learning Django and how its views work. You do not need a SPA, you need a working app that looks good.

robertoandred 2y ago
Why would I want to dedicate time to learning Django when I can just use a simple React framework?
mrweasel 2y ago
In general I'm not convinced that these "no Javacript" frameworks will last, and to some extend you going to have to re-learn a lot. That's not to say that the idea isn't interesting. While I have no idea how this would work, I think it would be more useful to have tools like this as a sort of template language for something like Django or Flask. So you get the mature frameworks on the backend and something like Rio to generate the backend, within the context of Django/Flask/Bottle/whatever. Some modern web applications do need VueJS, React, something like that. CRUD apps mostly don't, but we are way past CRUD apps for a lot of thing. You can maybe get away with calling Asana and Jira CRUD apps, but you can't do Figma with just Django.
- surfingdino 2y ago
  Agreed. There are legitimate cases for using SPAs, but often CRUD will suffice.

fmnxl 2y ago

You'd need to re-invent the wheel on so many things. Flexbox layout? CSS animations? Some custom npm library that I need to use to provide social logins, SDKs to integrate payment gateways? etc etc If all you want is just a set of UI components, sure. We already have plenty of UI libraries out there. These days there are many better ways to write low-JS, low-boilerplate code. HTMX for interactivity, UnoCSS for generated CSS on the fly. It's even possible not to bundle your ES6 modules these days, with <script type="importmap">.

fsndz 2y ago

I will start using this once a startup raises millions in VC funding and their whole app is built with this.

apetuskey 2y ago
https://reflex.dev/ https://reflex.dev/ is all made in Reflex and has raised a seed round! There are also a few YC companies using Reflex that have raised seed rounds too.
tempest_ 2y ago
The VC bit is the entire reason I would not use something like this. Just waiting for them to want their money out and then I am stuck deep in a product fast headed for enshitifaction or abandonment when it fails to make a billion dollars in 2 years.

ag_rin 2y ago

I feel like you’re getting a lot of pushback on this and I’m going to go out and say this is cool and I’m glad people continue to try to innovate on the webdev experience. The way I see it is building apps somewhat similarly to SwiftUI is actually a pretty good idea. If you have established rules for how each container expands or fills its content you can build a great web app development experience without getting down into css and html explicitly. Just Vbox container Hbox container text container etc. I can certainly see a niche for this as it is a different style of UI development. I’ve never been great as a UI designer so doing it in the traditional web stack has always been even harder but I’ve found that with SwiftUI I can usually get 90% of a good look very quickly.

jhot 2y ago
I spend 95% of my work time doing backend python microservices for internal tools, 5% on terraform for the infrastructure, and 0.0001% of my time building frontends for these tools (I just use plain html and JS, and only add a frontend when absolutely necessary). I've build a react app for fun in the past just to learn how that works but if I had to do it again for work I would basically have to go through the entire learning process again. So, something like this where I'm writing pure python for my web components could really save me a lot of that churn time, not to mention that many of my coworkers have absolutely no JS experience. I have an upcoming task to build a new frontend and am going to add in a couple days to try this out to see if it meets our needs.

davepeck 2y ago

I'm excited to see more projects like Rio exploring the full-stack python web dev space. There are definitely categories of users for which the approach makes sense. --- For me personally -- and I'm guessing for a bunch of other HNers -- writing full-stack web apps strictly in python is a non-goal. I've settled on a comfortable (for me) stack for smaller projects that need python on the backend that combines: 1. Litestar (or another lightweight HTTP framework of choice like flask, etc.) 2. HTMX 3. htpy.dev (an in-python HTML builder) 4. Custom web components implemented in a plain-old JavaScript ES6 module loaded directly by the browser A typical project only needs a handful of components. HTMX and htpy.dev both play very nicely with web components. When I want zero build steps, I write plain JavaScript + JSDoc comments. JSDoc is... okay-ish, but it ain't no typescript. If I need a database, I'll grab SQLAlchemy. I wish there were a mature lightweight solution here; maybe Tortoise ORM will get there soon? There's nothing in this stack that couldn't strictly be done in javascript-land. JSX syntax with HTMX is pretty great and much better than any in-python HTML builder. But often my projects have other requirements (like ML) where python is, at least today, inevitable.

synergy20 2y ago
Hopefully JSX can be more mainstream, that is, I can use it directly in js/html/css projects without all the extra tools pre-installed and pre-configured, making jsx part of the 'vanilla' development will be really nice(no react, no vuejs etc).
- timkq 2y ago
  I agree about the JSX part - but the thing about real dev is that you have to use all the tools you can, so you don't have to reinvent the wheel. Nobody's still making Windows-only GUI apps using the Win32 API - it's easier and all, but there's so much stuff you have to code yourself that it's simpler to learn a GUI library/framework and Just Use That. I had a quick glance at HTMX - and it seems to just be going backwards (similar to Go - the language is so simple that it's actually hard to code real stuff in it). Why should I make an API that's essentially web only (because you have to send back HTML from the server using HTMX) if I can just use JSON/Protobuf/etc. and with just a few build tools I can automatically generate functions that I can call directly in JS. Sure, it's easier to build a website with plain JS (and by that HTMX, which is glorified plain JS) but this is the real world.

bityard 2y ago

It's a bit sad that most of the comments here are negative. Most of them seem to be some variation of, "Nobody needs a tool like this, all you have to do is simply dedicate yourself to multiple years of writing corporate CRUD apps in both vanilla soul-crushing Javascript and web frameworks. You know, like I did." So, I am the target audience of this. I have a LOT of experience writing tools and automation and that is where most of my Python knowledge comes from. I am not an expert Python programmer, but I am competent. But sometimes, I have an idea for writing a web application that would greatly improve my day-to-day life in some way. I know exactly what I want it to do, I know exactly what I want it to look like. I have already designed the API in my head, and could probably write the bulk of the Flask code in under an hour. Maybe a couple of hours if you want tests. But what I DON'T have is the time to learn is the vagaries of HTML+CSS layout and internalize the Great Lessons of the last 20 years of JS development history. I have consciously stayed away from (non-trivial) web development because the tooling and patterns change almost daily. But the old stuff is not replaced, it is simply bolted on top of. And you have to know the WHOLE stack in order to troubleshoot most any part of it. Waking up one morning and saying, "I know a fair amount about computers, I want to write a web application," is just about as fanciful as saying, "I know a fair amount about airplanes, I want to design a jet engine." Rio devs, thank you for releasing this as open source. I look forward to checking it out. Even if it doesn't pan out for me, I appreciate that you took a crack at it.

darepublic 2y ago
Ok that's great. I guess I'm just skeptical you won't have to either A. Settle for premade layouts B. Learn some CSS like specification of custom styles. And that is where you get sucked into the rabbit hole
- thunky 2y ago
  > Settle for premade layouts Just think of how many man years we could have saved if we did this.
  - DrillShopper 2y ago

darepublic 2y ago

To be fair a lot of small startups could benefit from forgoing custom CSS styles for very straightforward frontend dev. So much money wasted on react devs imho (including myself)

robertoandred 2y ago
Don't hire a React dev, hire a web dev.

joshdavham 2y ago

Looks cool! But I'm wondering who the target audience is. Most web devs prefer javascript. Are you hoping to target data scientists to build data apps, for example?

Sn3llius 2y ago
Exactly! We've seen from personal experience just how many people are currently working on AI/datascience projects and would love to create UIs for them, but just can't. That's exactly who Rio is for - people who are experts in one field, and don't want to invest hours and hours into other languages just to create interfaces for what they're working on.
- joshdavham 2y ago
  That’s really smart. I was previously a data scientist who only knew python and made the transition last year to become a full stack web dev and I honestly had no idea what I was in for. I probably won’t use your tool, but I’ll happily recommend other data scientists check it out so they don’t have to go through what I did.

kitkat_new 2y ago

I probably don't want to know about the performance implications

quantadev 2y ago

The biggest tragedy in the history of software engineering was back in the mid 1990s when they failed to get Java (Applets) to run in the browser so they had to invent JavaScript, which was purely nothing but a hack put together over a weekend by one guy and it "stuck" like napalm onto humanity and has been burning us ever since. I would say at least one billion man hours (100 billion? Trillion?) has been wasted trying to contend with all the ugliness that ensued. Even the most popular language today on the web TypeScript only has one reason for existing: To try to continue to work around this napalm fire, in some semblance of a tolerable way. Sure I love TypeScript, and use it every day, because it's the best solution to the current dumpster fire, but I'd like to get away from dumpsters some day. So it's really refreshing to see something good being done to replace this mess we call "Web Development"

mixmastamyk 2y ago
Applets did run in the browser, I wrote a couple.
- quantadev 2y ago
  I wrote lots of Applets too. My parenthetical "(Applets)" in that post was misleading, sorry. Java and Applets pre-existed JavaScript, and purely due to a 10 day timing constraint put on him by Netscape management (right after their deal with Sun Microsystems), Brendan Eich, wanting a Java-syntax, but not having enough time to do it right, cobbled together JavaScript instead.
  - wiseowise 2y ago
    > and purely due to a 10 day timing constraint put on him by Netscape management (right after their deal with Sun Microsystems), Brendan Eich, wanting a Java-syntax, but not having enough time to do it right, cobbled together JavaScript instead. Stop spreading FUD. You have no idea what you’re talking about. Stuff that people hate wasn’t even part of the original demo. https://buttondown.com/hillelwayne/archive/did-brendan-eich-really-make-javascript-in-10-days/ https://buttondown.com/hillelwayne/archive/did-brendan-eich-...

chirau 2y ago

Is the rio.dev website built with Rio?

Technetium 2y ago
"Once your components are ready, you can mix and match them to create entire web applications. Even this entire website is written in Rio."

senko 2y ago

I am definitely target audience for this. I am often in need of building internal tools, dashboards - simple apps with simple UI that doesn't need to be unique, drive engagement, or whatever. It needs to get the job done and let me move on. Streamlit is close but the peculiar approach they take (rerun the script) makes it unwieldly for more complex apps (say, a few related pages, a few dozen components each). I've been looking for a way to just let me do "GUI app in Python" that get delivered over HTTP and rendered in browser, and Rio is exactly what I was hoping for. Yeah, no chance Meta will rewrite FB frontend to use Rio. Also pretty sure that I won't be doing any fancy websites in it. But if I can skip dealing with React/Vue/HTMX/whatever on the frontend for some internal thingy. I only tried doing some simple stuff but so far I really like what I see!

abdullahkhalids 2y ago

How difficult is it to add authentication in this framework? How many lines of code? How secure? None of the python->web projects have this.

timkq 2y ago
I agree with your sentiment. There's so many non-JS/TS frontend webapp frameworks (using either Kotlin, Go, Python, etc. - not even talking about the WASM ones) - but they all come to a halt once they actually need to use those frameworks besides writing a simple blog site, HN reader, etc.

marcelr 2y ago

so, uh, how does this work? liveview kinda deal? python to js compiler? something else? it drives me nuts when this isn’t in the readme, or from what i can find the docs this is a major implementation detail that will determine the usecases for apps written in rio

somesun 2y ago

there are maybe 50 web framework / app builder in python just like there are new frameworks everyday in javascript