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China Is Rapidly Becoming a Leading Innovator in Advanced Industries
- geenkeuse 2y agoThis is news to no one except Americans. But they are finally waking up, at least.
- ok123456 2y agoThey'll respond by having their politicians (both sides) ban or add 100%+ tariffs on superior Chinese goods. The whole new Cold War narrative the natsec state in the US has adopted about China is not moored in reality. The realpolitik is that neither side of the strait wants a significant disruption in commerce. Both sides should figure out a way to practice detente and reduce militarism. The US should do this in good faith.
- bdcravens 2y agoEven those politicians pick but a few products to do so. It's all theater. There's zero chance of the US succeeding in an all out trade war.
- reducesuffering 2y agoThis assumes that China will make a good faith effort not to invade Taiwan sometimes 2028+. Current geopol intel is that they fully intend to without immense US deterrence. Right now, you're more of the post-2014 invasion of Crimea camp, "let's not act too rash about helping Ukraine against Russia, hopefully they won't do anything more." From someone who predicted the invasion of Ukraine: https://www.amazon.com/World-Brink-America-Twenty-First-Century/dp/1541704096 https://www.amazon.com/World-Brink-America-Twenty-First-Cent...
- ok123456 2y agoThe author of that book is part of the Silverado Policy Accelerator, a natsec state think tank. Ukraine is a different affair. The CIA funded political parties during the Euromaidan/Automaidan, which resulted in internal conflict that led to the current state of affairs. The only reason they could predict it was that it was their goal.
- KK7NIL 2y agoRight, and the KGB was an innocent party in Ukrainian politics until the evil CIA forced their hand. /s You talk about CIA operations during the Euromaidan, but forget the elephant in the room that is objectively true: the Euromaidan was a response to a Russian controlled Ukrainian president betraying his people who were expecting closer ties with the EU and instead doing a deal with Russia last minute.
- ok123456 2y agoEuromaidan was a response to the old regime being corrupt and collapsing. The only allegiance was to self enrichment.
- KK7NIL 2y agoSure, that's why they named it Euromaidan and flew EU flags, because it was totally unrelated to the people's will to be closer to Europe. /s It is true that it was a revolt against a corrupt regime, but it's also true that this regime was openly pro-Russian and Russian backed, against the will of its people. You again have a big ol' blindspot for Russian corruption and meddling in Ukraine. You've made up your mind a long time ago and arguing with you is useless, you're just crafting a narrative that confirms your faith.
- aguaviva 2y agowhich resulted in internal conflict that led to the current state of affairs. The "current state of affairs" is due entirely to Putin's conscious decision to invade, starting in 2014, in the total absence of any meaningful threat to Russia's security. Not due to anything happening inside Ukraine, or anything the US supposedly did or did not do there.
- ysofunny 2y agochina is not know for invading
- reducesuffering 2y agoTibet, India, and Vietnam would like a word.
- defrost 2y agoChina's imitation of the Monroe Doctrine shows deep respect for traditional US values.
- 082349872349872 2y agoThe parallel is a little rougher if one believes the Monroe Doctrine (1823) had been motivated by the anti-slave-trade resolution (1815) annexed to the Congress of Vienna treaties. (which among other things mentioned "putting an end to a scourge, which has so long desolated Africa, degraded Europe, and afflicted humanity.") https://hhr-atlas.ieg-mainz.de/articles/weller-vienna https://hhr-atlas.ieg-mainz.de/articles/weller-vienna
- defrost 2y agoThat's an interesting connection that, to be honest, I don't think played a great role in being opposed to further European colonisation and|or influence in the New World. I see it more as the beginnings of US regional Hegemony and notable for two things, how it began and future attitudes to world affairs. In the beginning (from the wikipedia link): Great Britain shared the general objective of the Monroe Doctrine, and even wanted to declare a joint statement to keep other European powers from further colonizing the New World. The British feared their trade with the New World would be harmed if the other European powers further colonized it. In fact, for many years after the doctrine took effect, Britain, through the Royal Navy, was the sole nation enforcing it, the U.S. lacking sufficient naval capability. This is a reality of just how intertwined the actual USofA and the actual Great Britain were, despite that whole little hiccup with "Independence". In real politik the thirteen colonies were business investment startups by British Venture Capitalists who retained contacts, contracts, and business ties after reducing the meddling abilities of that pesky king in finnancial arrangements. The now independent colonies and new independent nation remaind largely Anglophile while the old order saw no conflict of interest in the use of their navy in the defence of mutual interest.
- janalsncm 2y agoThe meme that “China just copies others” is pure hubris. CATL builds the best batteries in the world. Is that not innovation?
- bryanlarsen 2y agoDJI has been building the best drones for many years now.
- toomuchtodo 2y agoBYD EVs of are high quality (bought a Seagull outside the US, attempting to import).
- bdcravens 2y agoBest 3D printers: Bambu Lab. I'm sure if we keep going there's hundreds of examples like this.
- Baeocystin 2y agoAs an avid user of both DJI and Bambu products, US-based equivalents, if they even exist, are so far behind the quality and capability curve it makes me genuinely sad. As an example, I had a heatbed issue with an early X1C. I went back and forth with the Bambu support folks a few times, busting out a multimeter and thermal probe. They had no trouble interpreting the information, and sent me a replacement part, under warranty, ASAP. Can you imagine any company stateside that would engage in actual troubleshooting nowadays? At best it's going to be some poor guy stuck reading through a script they can't change, and aren't empowered to resolve anyway. Maddening.
- bamboozled 2y agoThe dude who pulled out the script would be in Philippines or India too, completely disconnected from the situation.
- janalsncm 2y ago
- melling 2y agoGreat. We need more innovation in the world. Hopefully, India isn't too far behind. China has 28,000 miles of high-speed rail. United States? Close to zero. Low-speed maglevs look interesting: https://crrczelc-europe.com/medium-low-speed-maglev-changsha/ https://crrczelc-europe.com/medium-low-speed-maglev-changsha... For some reason, we just want to drill more oil and make our highways wider. Who's getting to Mars first? https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/09/china/china-mars-mission-tianwen-3-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/09/china/china-mars-mission-tian...
- Loughla 2y agoThe US is being defeated by itself. Regulator capture and businesses in bed with politicians for their own self interest. It has always happened to some extent. But technology has enabled it to grow out of hand.
- shiroiushi 2y agoIt's not just that; it's the culture of the people themselves. The OP mentioned high-speed rail. Such a thing just isn't of interest to the American people, because they've chosen a car-based lifestyle, and built every city and town not named "Manhattan" around that model, making rail transit non-viable economically. (HSR might be useful to some people in certain regions, but you still have to rent a car when you get to your destination city because going anywhere in that city (unless it's Manhattan again) requires a car.) This isn't because of regulatory capture; it's the predominant culture of the American people, and has been since the 1950s with White Flight and the rise of car culture. Add on top of this the anti-intellectualism that's been in American society forever, and the more recent terrible state of pre-college education and lack of interest in anything STEM unless it's programming with the goal of getting FAANG salaries and it's obvious why America has fallen behind so far. It's really just coasting on 3 things: 1) a huge population, so at least some minority of people are exceptions to the poor education I mentioned, 2) a lot of immigrant families who actually do believe in education and STEM achievements, contrary to popular culture, and 3) waning economic power that came from past achievements.
- aurizon 2y agoUS Colleges = the enemy. They have become bloated cash cows.
- tomohelix 2y agoTale as old as time. China has historically always been a leader in Asia. At its peak, it controlled an empire as vast as the entirety of the EU. Its cultural influence in Asia rivals that of Rome in the West, except that Rome is no more, but China still is. The US is younger than a single Chinese dynasty. And like all great historic empires, with Chinese ones being great examples, the US is fracturing from the inside. Corruption, apathy, a false sense of exceptionalism, etc. China has went through this rise and fall dozens of time. This might be the first time for the US.
- mc32 2y agoI mean, China _was_ _the_ poster child for exceptionalism, they called themselves the middle kingdom and still call themselves the central country. For much of their existence they despised the outside so much they became very insular --and still are, yet they thrive and thrive despite no superficial diversity we so clamor in the West. Their strength is their unity and long-view.
- ysofunny 2y agochina are a diverse group similary to the arabs, they all write the same way but talk differently, at least until the advent of tv and radio and all that
- mc32 2y agoThey kicked out all the people that did not fit the Han identity, so lots of the peoples that populate SEAsia today lived in what is now China. Those left in China, see themselves as unified Chinese people --they all adopted the mainstream prevalent culture --and don't long any erased ancient culture they might have had. They do not consider themselves as the remnants conquered tribes who were abused or decimated and subjugated by the Han. They see themselves, from their point of view as Han Chinese. Even Manchurians who at one point subjugated and controlled China, today see themselves as Chinese as any other Chinese in Beijing or Wuhan. They assimilated and took to Han culture and practice Han culture so much they are all one and the same today --with two exception and that is in their northwest and southwest --and those because those were very recent conquests. Most likely those in the southwest will assimilate despite a an exiled renegade spiritual leader who opposes the inevitable.
- Barrin92 2y ago"To enable those policies, America should embrace a “national power capitalism” suited to the current existential competition. Government must identify key sectors that are critical for national power and invest adequately to win the techno-economic war." One could even call it capitalism with American characteristics. These days China is often framed as lacking soft power but the degree to which the US is basically adopting Chinese developmental policy, the sentence above could come out of a party study session if you reversed the actors, is kind of funny. I saw someone joke that Jake Sullivan moving the semiconductor factories to Ohio is his version of Mao moving the factories to the hinterland.
- devilsdata 2y agoI am frustrated by the West. In my country alone (Australia), there will probably never be high speed rail between cities. The entire market investment is dominated by bloated real-estate. There is almost no progress. We're pretty much in decline.
- throwaway290 2y agoA leading innovator (not the leading) on metrics that you can disagree. Article's stats are about patents, "top 100 innovators", unicorns, number of supercomputers, number of innovation clusters(?) and almost everywhere China is behind US and sometimes Japan. But also some of these stats do not show to me the amount of actual innovation. Approaching US on "share of highly cited researchers" seemed to me like maybe the biggest deal but then I thought how easy it is to cheat that metric... > Foreign companies still dominate many key areas, but their IP has been eroded over time. Oooh I wonder how!
- ugh123 2y agoMany of the industries mentioned in the article are heavily regulated union industries in the U.S. China also has zero independent unions. I'm not a union hater, but there was a post here recently about unions in shipyards, with one commenter saying something like "we need to prevent any automation and broaden unions across all shipyards". That's just not helpful in the long run and if that's the mentality of unions in this country then we're doomed.
- janalsncm 2y agoIf you read nothing else from the article, read table 1. I’ll summarize it here. The US leads in the following industries: IT and Information Services, Pharmaceuticals, Other Transportation China leads in the following industries: Computers and Electronics, Chemicals, Machinery and Equipment, Motor Vehicles, Basic Metals, Fabricated Metals, Electrical Equipment The authors mention that although China’s workers are still less efficient than American workers, this is changing, and by the time Chinese workers are 80% as efficient as their American counterparts the Chinese economy will be 2-3x the size of America’s.
- stonethrowaway 2y agoThis is the geopolitics of scale that West is playing against at the moment which easily showcases the intent behind “unrestrained” immigration that is taking place in certain parts of the world. Make no mistake, it’s all planned. Simply put: you need to throw many many bodies at the problem to even have a shot at keeping up with China. Collectively, the West is way behind in this regard.
- oezi 2y agoNonsense. People don't like to leave their homes. The immigration which is troubling to the US and Europe (in contrast to skilled immigration) is almost entirely from unimaginable suffering (Syria, Afghanistan, Sudan, Venezuela, etc.). If the West wasn't shunning to engage these conflicts, this migration would cease.
- dyauspitr 2y agoThat’s not true at all. People will migrate for a higher quality of life, more opportunities and better financial gains even if they are not suffering. That’s essentially the bulk of legal immigration in the US and it’s mostly from India and China.
- oezi 2y agoThat's skilled migration which is entirely controlled by the receiving countries. It is not the "unrestrained" migration that OP talks about.
- atleastoptimal 2y agoThe USA, overall, does not encourage the development of high-tech engineering, improved infrastructure, cultural growth, appreciation for academic rigor, etc. By a mixture of miracles we became the world's superpower, but many of our fortuitous circumstances were accidental (mass migration of talented Europeans/Asians in the wake of famines/persecutions, WWII decimating manufacturing in Europe and Asia, abundant natural resources and perfect geography). However to improve as a country we have to abandon the puerile notion that the US is special for some metaphysical, divine reason. We got lucky and became a perfect environment for the development of the world's leading industries, but that providence is being quickly ceded to China. In terms of overall lifestyle quality we are far behind much of Europe anyways. The only thing America has that are the best in the world are its research universities (due to money and being able to take advantage of brain drain from around the world), its tech industry and high cultural soft power, areas it once held an overwhelming lead in that are evaporating fast.
- _DeadFred_ 2y agoThank you I needed a laugh today.
- atleastoptimal 2y agoSearch your feelings, you know it to be true. Every empire has had its day in the sun and its inevitable fall. What makes the fall inevitable? It's that during the seeding years of the fall, the notion that the ascendant, ever-present power surrounding everything could one day falter seems laughable to most.
- _DeadFred_ 2y agoI hate to break it to you but this: The USA, overall, does not encourage the development of high-tech engineering, improved infrastructure, cultural growth, appreciation for academic rigor is not true in the slightest. In my lifetime the USA brought to critical mass most technology that makes the modern world modern. Infrastructure issues are a lack of holding local government accountable. My area our infrastructure is mostly new with several large bridges recently replaced without incident, most highways recently expanded, train infrastructure greatly improved and capacity expanded (and soooo much quieter it's awesome). Sewer expanded AND releasing less into the river. Oh and water policy changes (made possible by infrastructure improvements) allowing the re-establishment of Salmon in our rivers, improved sturgeon population. The average American males attitude towards women in my lifetime has taken a huge cultural shift for the better. Huge changes have been made to reduce domestic violence (and peoples indifference to it) in my lifetime. Huge strides against inequality and racism have occured in my lifetime. Huge strides in LGBT+ rights. These are just off the top of my head cultural growths that have occured in my lifetime. The education of the average American is soo much better than it was of my parents generation, or the one before them. People are much more empathetic, inquisitive, understand more tech, are more well read. I agree we don't place unreasonable academic expectations on our children, but don't mistake that for a lack of intellectual inquisitiveness. In fact, I would say our attitude sparks it more, and to a deeper, more passionate level. I can't recall running into young people who can't sign their name, while that was not uncommon in my grandparents generation and I know multiple people like that in my parents. The USA is doing so much better than we were in the 1970s. The USAs willingness to vocalize our doom and gloom feelings is just one of our strengths, not a sign of our impending collapse. I love China. My dad was a hippie, we had so many books on China and communism (I even grew up on a commune in the 70s). I have visited China and loved it. I have friends there, and many friends in the USA who were born in China (and got stuck in the USA when they were students during tiananmen). I wish China the best. It doesn't have to be an us versus them, this isn't Civ. Lying about the USA doesn't accomplish anything. Those trying to doom and gloom the USA into Russian style indifference are mistaking the 'tragically online' attitude of despair for a general American one.
- _DeadFred_ 2y agoWhat happened to Hacker News today?
- WheelsAtLarge 2y agoChina has been and is being shut off from the West's most innovative industries. The goal is to slow China's progress. I suspect that it's only a matter of time before they innovate their way into technology that will surpass what they lack now. A great advantage they have is that they can focus their resources on single points of need. There is a great advantage in that but there's also the danger that they choose the wrong technology and they get lost and never get anywhere. We'll see what happens. One thing for sure is that they won't just wait and see what happens. They are going to work hard to move forward.
- stonethrowaway 2y agoWe went from no start ups to leading innovator in less than a week. Well done lads, well done!
- beej71 2y agoMaybe we should rethink our strategy of making college more expensive and less accessible.
- wslh 2y agoFrom a realpolitik standpoint, China has embraced elements of capitalism as a key strategy for economic growth. If I were to offer a speculative (and somewhat tongue-in-cheek) recommendation for Xi Jinping, it might be to create a free zone modeled on Western liberal traditions to compete more effectively with Silicon Valley and the U.S. Of course, Hong Kong was arguably positioned for this role, but given its recent trajectory, it raises the question of whether such a zone could exist within China's current political framework. Could a new experiment along these lines reconcile liberal economic freedoms with centralized political control?
- AnimalMuppet 2y agoIt won't work. Even if some carveout is made so that it is not "within China's current political framework", after Hong Kong, who can be sure that it would remain so? A "new experiment" along these lines won't be trusted enough to work, at least not during Xi's lifetime.
- wslh 2y agoI agree that this hypothesis has a very low chance of materializing, and, as you pointed out, it seems already "priced into the market". That said, given China's extensive involvement in many countries, such as in Latin America, Africa, and others through infrastructure projects and strategic investments, I'm curious: do you have any contrarian views on what moves China could make to boost its growth?
- AnimalMuppet 2y agoStop stifling dissent. People who can think freely on software, or chemistry or whatever, are not eager to accept a situation where they cannot also think freely about politics and international relations. Accept reality in international situations. (Taiwan is a de facto separate country; the nine-dash line is a mapmaker's aberration rather than any kind of reality.) Accept reality in economic statistics. (A number of those apartment buildings are worth zero.) Accept reality in society. (People don't like being fed propaganda. People don't like thinking that they can be in trouble for saying what they think.) But I don't think they can do those things and keep any kind of "business as usual"...