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Sweden will offer migrants $34k to go home
- LorenDB 2y agohttps://archive.ph/8YAQb https://archive.ph/8YAQb
- rKarpinski 2y agoAre Americans eligible?
- klingoff 2y agoIf they have to go home it isn't enough.
- cscurmudgeon 2y agoI know this is a joke trash comment but sometimes politely responding with data may be helpful. The average income in the US is $20k higher than that in Sweden. https://www.worlddata.info/country-comparison.php?country1=SWE&country2=USA#economy https://www.worlddata.info/country-comparison.php?country1=S... US is a top destination for Swedes moving out even without this incentive, but Sweden is not a top choice for US expats. https://www.statista.com/statistics/523165/sweden-emigration-by-country-of-destination/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/523165/sweden-emigration... https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/american-expats-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/american-...
- klingoff 2y agoOh wow, 20k a year makes anything worth it.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- lm28469 2y agoPro tip: when you check anything about the US skip the average and go for the median, it's completely skewed by the top 5% https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/median-income-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/median-in...
- cscurmudgeon 2y agoPro tip 1. This also applies to Sweden 2. Even by median income US is higher than Sweden and even after adjusting for PPP, so you can use cost of living. US looks better after addressing your concerns. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income
- daghamm 2y agoWhat is the rent for a two room apartment in New York vs Stockholm? What is the real salary once you substract retirement funds and medical insurance?
- nxm 2y agoFactor in 7% or so goes into 401K, but its up to you - and medical insurance is usually largely covered by the employer.
- inglor_cz 2y ago"What is the rent for a two room apartment in New York vs Stockholm?" Those two cities aren't really in the same urban league. Compare Stockholm to, say, Miami or Austin.
- klingoff 2y agoIs hurricane alley going to pay this wonderful 20k more and is it worth it to live there? I know Europeans who went there but not who stayed. Those are terrible places to actually work.
- mydogcanpurr 2y agoGDP per capita is an almost completely meaningless metric if you don’t also include cost of living and some way of measuring the quality of goods and services it acquires for you.
- cscurmudgeon 2y agoThat is not GDP per capita but average income. Feel free to add more data. If you adjust by living costs and look at median wages, US looks even better. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- ukbbbvchjk 2y ago[dead]
- ukbbbvchjk 2y ago[dead]
- bitcharmer 2y agoDoes that extra 20k offset the chance you're going to go bankrupt by a medical bill or have your children shot at school?
- cscurmudgeon 2y agoWhy don’t you do the computation? Balancing out taxes are lower and inflation is lower in the US. Answering your question: Adjusting by PPP, US is second only to Luxembourg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income
- bitcharmer 2y ago> Why don’t you do the computation This was your response to my question about children being shot at school. It's clear we have a very different set of values here in Europe.
- rangestransform 2y agoSchool shootings are an infinitesimal risk, gun violence in general might be worth pricing into the expected gain of moving into the US though
- subjectsigma 2y agoIn 2024 in America, there have been 133 children killed or injured by gun violence at school. With about 74 million legal children, that’s 0.000798%. I couldn’t find 2024 statistics, but in 2023 there were 391 gang-related gun deaths in Sweden. With about 10 million people, that’s 0.00391%. America has gun problems for sure, but school shootings are largely irrelevant compared to deaths from crime and accidents. And it’s not “clear” that you have “a very different set of values” in Europe when we’re discussing a nearly 10 year wave of gun violence in a European country
- throwaway48476 2y agoThis is claimable more than once.
- aloisdg 2y agoAs a french, am I eligible?
- thwg 2y agoNo you are not. The Swedes will love to have you there.
- parthdesai 2y agoWonder why that would be the case?
- rock_artist 2y agoLooking at this technically, I think that if by French you mean you have an EU citizenship. so in current state where parties are in the EU. you're eligible to work and live in Sweden without additional complexities and you're in a different state.
- 11235813213455 2y agoAs another French I'm consider migrating to Africa, closer to my lifestyle
- nabla9 2y agoHowever the policy works in practice, giving people choices is very humane. If someone has really good reason to stay, they don't take the offer.
- freilanzer 2y ago> If someone has really good reason to stay, they don't take the offer. That good reason being able to get more money out of the taxpayer in the long term.
- Sabinus 2y agoOr integrating, living and working in a safe, prosperous and welcoming society.
- gklitz 2y agoExactly! Those damn immigrants who come here and leach on the system while accepting a stipend and going home! While they take our jobs and leech off of unemployment benefits! They refuse to integrate and steal our woman! How do they do it? They just do it!
- bitcharmer 2y ago[flagged]
- focusgroup0 2y agoEconomics 101: - Successful Behavior Is Repeated - People Respond To Economic Incentives
- dopidopHN 2y ago[flagged]
- djohnston 2y ago[flagged]
- Saturnial22 2y ago[flagged]
- meowtimemania 2y agoWould this attract more migrants? (e.g. I could work for a year for 10k, or I could go to Sweden and get 34k) They've probably thought through all the ways to exploit this, just curious.
- 11235813213455 2y agoit probably works just once per individual at least
- mhh__ 2y agoGiven the profound lack of higher order thinking that led to Europe's experiment along these lines over the last decade or so I wouldn't be so sure if they have.
- cscurmudgeon 2y agoFor more context: https://ourworld.unu.edu/en/systems-thinking-and-the-cobra-effect https://ourworld.unu.edu/en/systems-thinking-and-the-cobra-e...
- hn_user82179 2y agoThe article addresses this. In Sweden in particular, a lot of the migrants are from countries in unrest. Last year's reward was $1k and exactly 1 person took it. The article said 'experts don't expect there to be a substantial increase in claiming the offer' with the increase to $35k which is surprising to me, but I suppose still makes sense as $35k won't make Damascus any safer.
- modeless 2y agoWouldn't it be possible to leave Damascus with $35k though?
- bryanlarsen 2y agoThey'll have forfeited the right to refugee status anywhere else and would have to migrate as an economic migrant. Which generally takes either six figures or decades, AFAICT.
- jfengel 2y agoThe entire point of being a refugee is that you can't go home. It sounds like a trick question. "Haha, if you could go home then you're not really a refugee, so we're deporting you instead." Perhaps that explains why almost nobody applied and only one got it last year. Many would love to go home. They just can't.
- ImJamal 2y agoYou are assuming they are refugees rather than regular migrants.
- n1b0m 2y agoA Catch-22 situation
- jjallen 2y agoWars do end though. It’s not like there are no exceptions to this. Lots of refugees want better economic circumstances too. It’s not always a threat of violence back home.
- kamikazeturtles 2y agoUnless your side won, the war ending doesn't have any affect on whether it's safe for you to return or not. In the case of Syria, the Caesar sanctions will probably cripple Syria's reconstruction. So there probably won't be much to return to for the foreseeable future.
- wkat4242 2y agoWas there really 'sides' in terms of people? Most people in Syria just fled the onslaught but were not part of either side (the Assad regime and the various rebel groups). And obviously we're not going to grant refugee status to some of these groups like Isis rebels. But yeah it's in Europe's interests to quickly rebuild there
- aaomidi 2y ago
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- vintermann 2y agoThis isn't a new approach. I know Norway used it after the Yugoslavian civil war (and especially the conflict in Kosovo), to encourage refugees to go home. I've also seen ads from some NGOs offering financial support for return.
- yurishimo 2y agoWatching the new approach Germany is taking by closing borders, this seems like it might be a more viable option. 34k in some of the countries they fled from can move people to a new class of standing. Obviously that presupposes that they have a somewhat functional country to go back to (Yemen, Syria, etc) but I suppose it can’t hurt to try. It’s expensive to deport people anyway, so perhaps using the carrot instead of the stick will work more favorably. The reality is that countries and governments are made of people. If you piss them off long enough, bad stuff is going to fester and violence will eventually come forth as the “only viable solution”. It’s up to policy makers and politicians to lead public discourse and try to find a solution. I think the other thing though is that governments need to be more open about the consequences. We’re seeing this now in the Netherlands with the push of the new right wing government to cut immigration visas. But whoops, now we don’t have enough people to fill jobs and the tax base is being pushed to the edge to pay for social services that are only going to get more and more strained. Without some form of immigration, the west as we know it will cease to function as the population ages and jobs are not filled. So sure, you can vote to keep the immigrants out, but just know you’ll probably die alone from a preventable complication because the home health nurse is stretched between 30 patients in a 24 hour period. Elections and choices alike have consequences and not voting is also a choice. To end on Sweden again, im sure the rest of Europe will be watching this experiment very closely, though cynically I don’t think it will matter or have much of an effect.
- ethbr1 2y agoWhat surprises me is how undiscussed the actual underlying issues are. Cultural stability and assimilation rate are real processes, that can be influenced by various policies. Similar, economies run on labor and skill, and growth or shrinking of a labor pool has serious ramifications. Yet these things aren't part of most of these discussions: instead it's sound bites and hyping extreme scenarios (on all sides) as common occurrences. -- In most countries with low birth rates, it would be extremely beneficial to everyone there to boost population growth through immigration. Yet immigration and assimilation create cultural friction with the then-dominant national culture, so that needs to be managed. Ultimately, I'd like to see more honest communication around "We're encouraging immigration to drive our economy" and "Here are the things that immigrants are having to deal with, as they adjust to living in our country, and what you can do to help them." It sucks when someone is outcompeted by immigrant labor, but that should probably prompt some self reflection -- how can someone new to a country substitute into their job? And why weren't they doing more to find a job where that wasn't possible?
- vinni2 2y agoWhy not accept the money and apply for asylum in another country?
- bitcharmer 2y agoBecause most of them are economic migrants so ineligible for asylum.
- throw-the-towel 2y agoBeing ineligible doesn't mean you can't apply. In some countries asylum applications can take years to be processed, I think Spain is one.
- switch007 2y agoThese headlines grabbing schemes are fine but what really matters is the annual migration statistics. If 20k take up this offer but 40k new ones come then it was a failure at best and a smoke screen at worst. Never trust a European politician who says they don't like immigration. Wait to see what their policies actually do to the figures
- djohnston 2y agoDefinitely won't be abused. It even says they can leave and come back XD. Man it must be frustrating getting this shafted as a taxpayer.
- stareatgoats 2y ago[flagged]
- djohnston 2y ago[flagged]
- stareatgoats 2y agoHey, let's try not to go full on ad hominem, shall we? Much nicer if you had actually addressed the text in my comment and not made up stuff that isn't there [0]. Crime in Sweden (and elsewhere) is still a serious problem. But so is racism, which simplifies societal problems to a question of innate qualities of foreigners when instead one ought to consider societal, historic, cultural, and economic factors as a whole. You know, real knowledge and stuff that actually makes it possible to solve problems. Symbolic gestures like offering to pay money for their departure don't solve any problems; it only serves to offend, degrade, and alienate. You might also be interested to hear that Sweden comes in at 118 in the global organized crime index, UK is 61, USA is 67, Germany 80 etc [1]. [0] 'you (...) say "The people who have a problem with this are racist" ' - I never said that, and I don't believe it either. [1] https://ocindex.net/rankings?f=rankings&view=List&group=Country https://ocindex.net/rankings?f=rankings&view=List&group=Coun...
- endejerv 2y agoyeah and? the Scandinavian model only works when you have Scandinavians.
- sobellian 2y agoWould you accept $34k to move to Syria? I have no idea who this incentive is designed for. The (financial) opportunity cost alone totally swamps the incentive before we even consider the risk in living in a volatile dictatorship. On a macro level, moving people from functional, high-productivity countries to failed states makes even less sense. Totally hapless policy from Sweden here.
- djohnston 2y ago> moving people from functional, high-productivity countries to failed states makes even less sense Depends who you're moving.
- sobellian 2y agoWell no need to be so mysterious about it - is there any group in particular who you'd like to put under Assad's thumb?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- djohnston 2y agoThose who fail to benefit the country in which they are guests, though I'm not sure Assad would be the primary recipient.
- sobellian 2y ago> Those who fail to benefit the country in which they are guests That's hardly more specific. In an attempt to steel-man - before you edited your comment (or left another one? hard to tell in the HN UI), you referred to criminals. Well, this incentive is pointed at all migrants, not just criminals. I struggle to understand how law-abiding immigrants don't benefit their host country, yet the Swedish government would like to see them leave as well.
- patio11 2y agoJapan had a similar policy, with respect to legal immigrants it had made a point of recruiting, in the immediate wake of the global financial crisis. They'd buy (largely) Peruvian/Brazilian factory workers of Japanese descent a plane ticket and approximately $3k of compensation (IIRC) in return for them surrendering their work-compatible visa. It was controversial, from a number of angles. https://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/business/global/23immigrant.html https://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/business/global/23immigra...
- ne0flex 2y agoAfter reading this article, it's crazy to see how the attitude has shifted, and number of immigrants exploded in recent years. I just spent the past 2 weeks in Japan and was surprised by the sheer amount foreign workers. I remember almost a decade ago until COVID, whenever I visited my wife's hometown in very rural Fukuoka, a Russian woman married to a Japanese woman and myself were literally the only foreigners in the town. When I went there 2 weeks ago, I saw several foreign workers at a 7-eleven.
- shiroiushi 2y ago>whenever I visited my wife's hometown in very rural Fukuoka, a Russian woman married to a Japanese woman This isn't possible in Japan. Japan does not recognize same-sex marriage.
- jmyeet 2y ago[flagged]
- djohnston 2y agoThe narrative of "If you don't like unfettered illegal immigration you're a Nazi" has really lost its stopping power. No one in the centre believes that anymore and most mainstream political parties see the problem quite clearly. What you decry as the rise of fascism is really just the decline in persuasiveness of this tired rhetoric.
- jmyeet 2y agoThe most charitable interpretation of your statement is that it's a straw man argument. Who said anything about "unfettered illegal immigration"? Even that's an objetively false characterization. Take the Haitian migrants in Ohio that are currently the victims of intentional blood libel. As an aside, identifying, villifying and demonizing an out-group like this, particularly to intentionally incite violence against them, is a key aspect of fascism. The objective falsehood here is that they're "illegal immigrants". They're not. They're Temporary Protected Status ("TPS") holders. It is 100% legal and moral to seek asylum. And then we proceed to the myth of "the center", much like the myth of the "swing voter". What the US has politically is a choice between the far-right and the center-right who have completely capitulated to far-right messaging on immigration. Every aspect of far-right anti-immigrant messaging is verifiably and objectively false. The latest lie is "they're eating the cats" [1] but there are so many more. The "migrant crime" hysteria is blood libel [2]. [1]: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/09/15/jd-vance-create-stories-migrants-eating-pets/75236975007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/... [2]: https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/cbp-enforcement-statistics/criminal-noncitizen-statistics https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/cbp-enforcement-statistic...
- djohnston 2y ago> It is 100% legal and moral to seek asylum. Where? In the first available country of safe refuge because you're fleeing political persecution or war? Yeah, I'd say that's 100% legal and moral. That's how you get from Syria to Turkiye. Is it legal and moral to then pass through 5 or 6 countries on your way to the USA or Sweden and request "asylum" because you want to find safe refuge in the country that has the best economic opporunity (or benefits)? How about buying a plane ticket from MENA to Mexico and then claiming asylum at the US border? Certainly the Mexican gov't isn't beholden to whatever dictator you were escaping in the Middle East. Could it be you're actually just abusing the asylum system to improve your economic outlook? Mayyybe that abuse is legal, but if you want to say it's moral you'll have to answer to the millions of people who pay money, fill out the forms, and immigrate to the US legally in search of the same opportunities. My take on it would be that cutting the line isn't moral, but maybe your values differ.
- janice1999 2y agoContext: Sweden's deadly gang war [1] > Sweden's gun crime death rate is now the highest in the European Union. > Statistics show that gang shooting suspects are predominantly of migrant background. [1] https://news.sky.com/story/swedens-deadly-gang-war-has-turned-peaceful-country-into-murder-hotspot-13071608 https://news.sky.com/story/swedens-deadly-gang-war-has-turne...
- bitcharmer 2y agoAs much as you're right, posting facts about negative aspects of immigration will get you in trouble or you'll get branded names and down voted at best.
- mhh__ 2y agoWhat actually usually happens is silence, then they stop publishing the data.
- rdtsc 2y agoFunny enough the OP’s post was quickly flagged and is now “dead”, sort of proving their point here too.
- bitcharmer 2y agoYes and that it happens on cesspool platforms like reddit I can live with. However this is the new norm on HN of all places and it's really concerning. You'll get flagged even for mentioning that coordinated flagging exists on HN.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- anonfordays 2y agoI vouched for your comment because it's benign and states an objective fact. My posts are being flagged by a group of users who dislike that. Users who flagged your post should be banned from flagging.
- heraldgeezer 2y agoIn 2018 a report made by the Expert Group for Studies in Public Economics (ESO), which has studied the employment level of refugees between 1983 and 2015. The study shows, among other things, that the integration of refugees gradually deteriorated during the period, and that an average refugee represents a cost of SEK 74,000 per year for public finances. There is considerable uncertainty in the calculations, but they indicate that the net redistribution via public finances to an average refugee over his or her entire lifetime in Sweden amounts to an average of SEK 74 000 per year. Swedish article https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/ny-eso-rapport-flyktinginvandring-en-kostnad-for-sverige https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/ny-eso-rapport-flyktingin... http://archive.today/6zwMH http://archive.today/6zwMH https://web.archive.org/web/20240914135437/https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/ny-eso-rapport-flyktinginvandring-en-kostnad-for-sverige https://web.archive.org/web/20240914135437/https://www.svt.s...
- freilanzer 2y agoThis is what I would expect. They're a massive drain on the taxpayer and even if they work - which is mostly not the case in Germany - it's in small jobs that cost the taxpayer more in subsidies than they provide. Immigration in most cases is a net negative. And I'm not even talking about the other factors, such as crimes like rapes, terrorism, etc., a drain on resources such as doctors and public administration, ...
- penguin_booze 2y agoAny scheme that offers cash incentive has a high likelihood of inviting the Cobra Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive#The_original_cobra_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive#The_origina....
- fakedang 2y agoI can see lots of guys planning on going on holiday back in Syria, Pakistan, North Africa and West Africa. Wait, they actually do that! : https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-seehofer-warns-refugees-who-take-syria-vacations/a-50069317 https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-seehofer-warns-refugees-who-t...
- gerikson 2y agoLots of confusion about what a "migrant" is in this context and who is eligible for the compensation. Here's the English language page about the repatriation compensation (currently 10,000 SEK): https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Leaving-Sweden/Voluntary-repatriation.html https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/... ---- You can apply for the grant if you have a temporary or permanent residence permit in Sweden * as a refugee * as a quota refugee * as a person eligible for subsidiary protection * on the grounds of exceptionally distressing circumstances * or because of your connection to a person who has one of the residence permits listed above.
- jesterson 2y agoExcellent. Get in to get welfare, get out to get even more welfare. And all this at taxpayer's expense. Incredible how people are complacent with that.
- erichocean 2y agoAddition by Subtraction in action.
- AndrewKemendo 2y ago> Money set aside for repatriation may be better spent on integrating refugees and other migrants, through programs like language lessons, job assistance and training, which could help newcomers build a future in Sweden, she said. So just to be clear, a Neo-Nazi political group rebranded, and has successfully passed a law to use significant amounts of taxes to deport immigrants instead of using the same amount of money to integrate them?
- hejira 2y agoYes. (I'm from Sweden)
- AndrewKemendo 2y agoThanks. I mean it seems pretty straightforward in its position. I don’t agree but at least it’s clear.
- ywvcbk 2y agoThe difference is that their approach might work (it most likely won’t achieve anything.. but still) just spending the same (or higher) amounts of money is less likely to achieve anything without significant policy changes (forced assimilation and such which seems like even more cruel that semi-voluntary deportation)
- muaytimbo 2y agoWhat is the purpose of the 34k? Why not just put them on a plane back to their country of origin? Are they not able to be found?
- ywvcbk 2y agoIt’s very hard to deport someone legally against their will in some cases (i.e. they are refugees, don’t have any documents, are “underage” etc.) There are all sorts of technicalities and legal processes than can be appealed.
- more_corn 2y agoThe fine print: Of 250,000 migrants 70 applied for the grant and one got it. If your goal is to send people home here’s how you do it. Hire 50 lawyers to help migrants apply for the grant and provide translation assistance. You’ll 100x the applicants and 10x the success rate. Anything else is useless chatter.