6 ms·

It seems like the article is based around the very flawed premises that what people enjoy doing can support them monetarily, and that such activities even can b

It seems like the article is based around the very flawed premises that what people enjoy doing can support them monetarily, and that such activities even can be carried on until death. It all sort of falls apart when you consider the passionate artist who isn't actually very good, or the skilled woodworker that develops arthritis. It's no surprise that the author is a software developer, as we are the rare cases that are often well paid, often enjoy what we do tremendously, and the job has few physical requirements that would exclude an elderly person (though age discrimination is very real). The author's points come from a very privileged position, and I'm not sure they realise it. I'm all for not giving up on life at retirement age, but even though I like my job I sure as hell don't want to be doing a 9-5 when I'm 80. I don't even really want to be doing it now.

SamuelAdams 2y ago
You could also build software for fun, ie contribute to open source. However remember that there are several other disabilities that can occur as you age. I know several people who developed Alzheimer's or MS around their 60’s. There is no way they could work a programming job today.
- dingnuts 2y ago
  contributing to open source isn't fun. it sucks. it might be good for your career but it is developing software in the most hostile environment for the most entitled users I have a side project. wanna see the code? you can't! screw you it's mine! also MS is a wildly different disease than Alzheimer's. many women especially develop MS in their twenties and it is not always progressive and it is certainly not life ending like Alzheimer's spreading this kind of misinformation about MS makes it difficult for sufferers to find work if their disability is visible because their level of disability can be assumed to be greater than it really is. MS is extremely variable from one person to the next.
  - krisoft 2y ago
    > I have a side project. wanna see the code? you can't! screw you it's mine! Lol. Are you ok? > MS is a wildly different disease than Alzheimer's. They didn’t say it is the same disease. They said “I know several people who developed Alzheimer's or MS around their 60’s.” Which is while not the typical age MS appears it can still certainly happen. (It even has a specific name to describe it. Late-Onset Multiple Sclerosis)
- johnisgood 2y ago
  Developing MS at age 60 is nothing, they may or may never have relapses. I have had MS since age 21, with thankfully only one relapse, so far.
Jcampuzano2 2y ago
I'm a software developer myself and had a rude awakening into the life of someone who loves what they do but can't do it due to a physical limitation recently. I'm lucky that It is fixable and I'm in the process but it makes me dread a time when I have something that can't be fixed. I developed Cubital tunnel syndrome in both elbows which leads to extreme numbness and pain in my pinky, ring finger wrist, elbow and top of the hand when doing any activity requiring using my hands or bending elbow for even small minutes of time. Luckily I can get surgery for it, but I've still had to wait this long going through months of other prevention measures that didn't work at all before I was finally allowed to consider it. Even though its only been 6 months, its been an extremely depressing ride not being physically able to do basic daily things including my job and passion of developing/learning about development without pain. Its made me scared for the day when I wont be able to do this and many other things anymore since even just this short 6 months has been a rude awakening into the life of someone dealing with extreme pain in just daily life, and sympathize for people who are going through the same things. For many people "retiring" doing what they love just is not possible.
- tough 2y ago
  Never used this but have seen talon recommended https://talonvoice.com/ https://talonvoice.com/ hoping you recover soon
- craydandy 2y ago
  I had pinched ulnaris nerve in both elbows a few years ago. The symptoms were pretty much the same as you describe. It took two operations and more than a year to recover. The symptoms started to creep back this year, probably because I started to hit the keyboard more. Luckily I found a book about trigger points [1] and releasing the triceps trigger points, especially #3 removes the symptoms. The book is godsend; I've found help from it to so many other issues too. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Trigger-Point-Therapy-Workbook-Self-Treatment/dp/1608824942 https://www.amazon.com/Trigger-Point-Therapy-Workbook-Self-T...
paulddraper 2y ago
Interests can change
candost 2y ago
I am the author and I am very much aware of my privileges. I also know that I am writing these things not to everyone out there but to people like me. That said, I am also aware of my privileged situation can change anytime. That’s why I am focusing on what I can do to cover myself if I lose these privileges while I still have them. Most probably, I don’t know and not aware of a lot of things as well and I am willing to figure out on the way, lose something, earn something else, but never give up. > I don't even really want to be doing it now. This sentence is what exactly I want to avoid in my life.
- manmal 2y ago
  How do you see our profession evolving until and past your retirement age? Are you not worried that, besides the LLM revolution (and whatever comes next), ageism will cause you to be out of a job at say 60 at the latest?
  - itsoktocry 2y ago
    >ageism will cause you to be out of a job at say 60 at the latest? Do you feel like you'll be much less productive at 60? Why would you work for a company that thinks that way? Can you no longer solve business problems by that age? We have 80 year old politicians, so I'd hope not.
    - sokoloff 2y ago
      From what I observe of 80+ year old politicians, I find that to be more an argument in favor of ageism rather than against it.
    - rvba 2y ago
      It doesnt matter what you feel. It matters what your employer or customers feel. Unless you are super lucky to have own company and own product(s).
    - manmal 2y ago
      It’s hard to overstate how much I want to see this topic the same way as you do. I think, so far, I’ve only become more productive, and I don’t feel the cynicism that many seem to acquire past a certain age (“all frameworks are just the same”, “wheel is reinvented all the time” etc - I have a more nuanced view on this). I’m not really worried about my productivity at 60, but that the market will favor cheaper, superficially quicker-minded folks, who tend to be young.
thayne 2y ago
I used to think I would work until I died or was unable to work. I now realize that it would be nice to retire, so that I can work on the things that I want to (which in my case would be open source projects) instead of what my employer tells me to. You could argue if I was self employed, I could do that now, but that would mean I have to worry about finding people to pay me for my work (as a contractor or freelancer) or running a business (as a founder). And I have zero interest in doing that.
- exe34 2y ago
  you can also work part time for food and shelter and spend the rest of your time doing what you enjoy!
  - thayne 2y ago
    Not easily. There aren't a lot of part-time software development jobs. And working part time typically means giving up benefits like health insurance (at least in the US).
    - charlie0 2y ago
      100% this. I've also been thinking about going part time SWE, but I just haven't seen any. You can try freelancing part time, but that's not for everyone. The best bet is to get creative and go work for a large co where you can slack off part time. Maybe try joining as a junior. You can get the job done fast as senior , take the lower salary and get back some freedom. Seems fair to me.
    - exe34 2y ago
      I continue to be amazed by the land of the free.
bradlys 2y ago
Do people really enjoy this industry that much? I get the feeling we have a lot of outspoken people who write a lot but almost everyone I’ve ever met is trying to get the fuck out. They want to get their payday and FIRE. They’re not interested in staying if they have the financial means to leave. Part of the distaste for the job and industry is what I think fuels the FIRE movement being so full of tech workers. If you’re in medicine or law or finance, you can do the same but you never hear of FIRE anywhere near the same level in those industries.
- deergomoo 2y ago
  Personally I've enjoyed it a lot, at points, mostly when I'm permitted to keep my head down and build useful things or meaningfully improve existing things. That said, I'm based in the UK so I don't think FIRE* is so prevalent here, because our salaries are much lower and there are barely any opportunities for a big payday compared to the US. I make 2x the median UK salary as a lead dev and live in a fairly low cost of living area, but that only puts me at the same salary as a junior dev in much of the US. I'm not paying my mortgage off any time soon. * Financial Independence, Retire Early for anyone wondering—I had to look it up as I wasn't familiar with the term
- hamandcheese 2y ago
  My friends in finance don't have a management chain 4+ levels deep and idiot product managers and product marketers calling the shots. Most people I know love the craft, but hate the industry.
  - bradlys 2y ago
    Yeah, I think my frustrations have much more to do with the environment than coding or whatever. I don’t spend a ton of time coding and so my frustrations naturally are abundant. I think a lot of finance these days is kinda bullshit though. My friends in NYC who are in finance and making a killing (easily making more than faang engineer comp) are barely working and seem to be happy with their jobs. What a joke it is to be in the tech industry when you’re also working one of the lowest social status jobs on top of being ground into dust. I wish I had chosen a different career.
m463 2y ago
There's an important point to consider that might align with the author. Maybe you shouldn't "work work work, retire". https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7307664/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7307664/ "Early retirement was not associated with a higher risk of mortality. On-time retirement was associated with a higher risk of mortality, which might reflect the healthy worker effect." (but it also says "It is important to consider information on prior health and demographics when studying the association between retirement and mortality to avoid biased findings.") I kind of suspect it might be imagination and realistic planning. You should imagine retirement early and if you can't afford it, try to mentally do it. and then transition while staying happy and healthy. If you work work work, then "retire", you might just jump into the laz-y-boy at retirement, become comfortable, less active and adopt unhealthy habits.
latexr 2y ago
> the passionate artist who isn't actually very good Your point stands even if said artist is good but can’t network. Hannah Gadsby makes that point about van Gogh in Nannette¹: people actively avoided him, so he didn’t find success in life. ¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Gadsby#Nanette https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Gadsby#Nanette
Yeul 2y ago
Funny I very rarely see anyone older than 40 in the IT industry. Where are these happy 70 year old coders hiding?
- mystified5016 2y ago
  At home because no one wants to hire them over age discrimination.
- wormius 2y ago
  Working on COBOL in a fortune 500 company.

SamuelAdams 2y ago

You could also build software for fun, ie contribute to open source. However remember that there are several other disabilities that can occur as you age. I know several people who developed Alzheimer's or MS around their 60’s. There is no way they could work a programming job today.

dingnuts 2y ago
contributing to open source isn't fun. it sucks. it might be good for your career but it is developing software in the most hostile environment for the most entitled users I have a side project. wanna see the code? you can't! screw you it's mine! also MS is a wildly different disease than Alzheimer's. many women especially develop MS in their twenties and it is not always progressive and it is certainly not life ending like Alzheimer's spreading this kind of misinformation about MS makes it difficult for sufferers to find work if their disability is visible because their level of disability can be assumed to be greater than it really is. MS is extremely variable from one person to the next.
- krisoft 2y ago
  > I have a side project. wanna see the code? you can't! screw you it's mine! Lol. Are you ok? > MS is a wildly different disease than Alzheimer's. They didn’t say it is the same disease. They said “I know several people who developed Alzheimer's or MS around their 60’s.” Which is while not the typical age MS appears it can still certainly happen. (It even has a specific name to describe it. Late-Onset Multiple Sclerosis)
johnisgood 2y ago
Developing MS at age 60 is nothing, they may or may never have relapses. I have had MS since age 21, with thankfully only one relapse, so far.

Jcampuzano2 2y ago

I'm a software developer myself and had a rude awakening into the life of someone who loves what they do but can't do it due to a physical limitation recently. I'm lucky that It is fixable and I'm in the process but it makes me dread a time when I have something that can't be fixed. I developed Cubital tunnel syndrome in both elbows which leads to extreme numbness and pain in my pinky, ring finger wrist, elbow and top of the hand when doing any activity requiring using my hands or bending elbow for even small minutes of time. Luckily I can get surgery for it, but I've still had to wait this long going through months of other prevention measures that didn't work at all before I was finally allowed to consider it. Even though its only been 6 months, its been an extremely depressing ride not being physically able to do basic daily things including my job and passion of developing/learning about development without pain. Its made me scared for the day when I wont be able to do this and many other things anymore since even just this short 6 months has been a rude awakening into the life of someone dealing with extreme pain in just daily life, and sympathize for people who are going through the same things. For many people "retiring" doing what they love just is not possible.

tough 2y ago
Never used this but have seen talon recommended https://talonvoice.com/ https://talonvoice.com/ hoping you recover soon
craydandy 2y ago
I had pinched ulnaris nerve in both elbows a few years ago. The symptoms were pretty much the same as you describe. It took two operations and more than a year to recover. The symptoms started to creep back this year, probably because I started to hit the keyboard more. Luckily I found a book about trigger points [1] and releasing the triceps trigger points, especially #3 removes the symptoms. The book is godsend; I've found help from it to so many other issues too. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Trigger-Point-Therapy-Workbook-Self-Treatment/dp/1608824942 https://www.amazon.com/Trigger-Point-Therapy-Workbook-Self-T...

paulddraper 2y ago

Interests can change

candost 2y ago

I am the author and I am very much aware of my privileges. I also know that I am writing these things not to everyone out there but to people like me. That said, I am also aware of my privileged situation can change anytime. That’s why I am focusing on what I can do to cover myself if I lose these privileges while I still have them. Most probably, I don’t know and not aware of a lot of things as well and I am willing to figure out on the way, lose something, earn something else, but never give up. > I don't even really want to be doing it now. This sentence is what exactly I want to avoid in my life.

manmal 2y ago
How do you see our profession evolving until and past your retirement age? Are you not worried that, besides the LLM revolution (and whatever comes next), ageism will cause you to be out of a job at say 60 at the latest?
- itsoktocry 2y ago
  >ageism will cause you to be out of a job at say 60 at the latest? Do you feel like you'll be much less productive at 60? Why would you work for a company that thinks that way? Can you no longer solve business problems by that age? We have 80 year old politicians, so I'd hope not.
  - sokoloff 2y ago
    From what I observe of 80+ year old politicians, I find that to be more an argument in favor of ageism rather than against it.
  - rvba 2y ago
    It doesnt matter what you feel. It matters what your employer or customers feel. Unless you are super lucky to have own company and own product(s).
  - manmal 2y ago
    It’s hard to overstate how much I want to see this topic the same way as you do. I think, so far, I’ve only become more productive, and I don’t feel the cynicism that many seem to acquire past a certain age (“all frameworks are just the same”, “wheel is reinvented all the time” etc - I have a more nuanced view on this). I’m not really worried about my productivity at 60, but that the market will favor cheaper, superficially quicker-minded folks, who tend to be young.

thayne 2y ago

I used to think I would work until I died or was unable to work. I now realize that it would be nice to retire, so that I can work on the things that I want to (which in my case would be open source projects) instead of what my employer tells me to. You could argue if I was self employed, I could do that now, but that would mean I have to worry about finding people to pay me for my work (as a contractor or freelancer) or running a business (as a founder). And I have zero interest in doing that.

exe34 2y ago
you can also work part time for food and shelter and spend the rest of your time doing what you enjoy!
- thayne 2y ago
  Not easily. There aren't a lot of part-time software development jobs. And working part time typically means giving up benefits like health insurance (at least in the US).
  - charlie0 2y ago
    100% this. I've also been thinking about going part time SWE, but I just haven't seen any. You can try freelancing part time, but that's not for everyone. The best bet is to get creative and go work for a large co where you can slack off part time. Maybe try joining as a junior. You can get the job done fast as senior , take the lower salary and get back some freedom. Seems fair to me.
  - exe34 2y ago
    I continue to be amazed by the land of the free.

bradlys 2y ago

Do people really enjoy this industry that much? I get the feeling we have a lot of outspoken people who write a lot but almost everyone I’ve ever met is trying to get the fuck out. They want to get their payday and FIRE. They’re not interested in staying if they have the financial means to leave. Part of the distaste for the job and industry is what I think fuels the FIRE movement being so full of tech workers. If you’re in medicine or law or finance, you can do the same but you never hear of FIRE anywhere near the same level in those industries.

deergomoo 2y ago
Personally I've enjoyed it a lot, at points, mostly when I'm permitted to keep my head down and build useful things or meaningfully improve existing things. That said, I'm based in the UK so I don't think FIRE* is so prevalent here, because our salaries are much lower and there are barely any opportunities for a big payday compared to the US. I make 2x the median UK salary as a lead dev and live in a fairly low cost of living area, but that only puts me at the same salary as a junior dev in much of the US. I'm not paying my mortgage off any time soon. * Financial Independence, Retire Early for anyone wondering—I had to look it up as I wasn't familiar with the term
hamandcheese 2y ago
My friends in finance don't have a management chain 4+ levels deep and idiot product managers and product marketers calling the shots. Most people I know love the craft, but hate the industry.
- bradlys 2y ago
  Yeah, I think my frustrations have much more to do with the environment than coding or whatever. I don’t spend a ton of time coding and so my frustrations naturally are abundant. I think a lot of finance these days is kinda bullshit though. My friends in NYC who are in finance and making a killing (easily making more than faang engineer comp) are barely working and seem to be happy with their jobs. What a joke it is to be in the tech industry when you’re also working one of the lowest social status jobs on top of being ground into dust. I wish I had chosen a different career.

m463 2y ago

There's an important point to consider that might align with the author. Maybe you shouldn't "work work work, retire". https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7307664/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7307664/ "Early retirement was not associated with a higher risk of mortality. On-time retirement was associated with a higher risk of mortality, which might reflect the healthy worker effect." (but it also says "It is important to consider information on prior health and demographics when studying the association between retirement and mortality to avoid biased findings.") I kind of suspect it might be imagination and realistic planning. You should imagine retirement early and if you can't afford it, try to mentally do it. and then transition while staying happy and healthy. If you work work work, then "retire", you might just jump into the laz-y-boy at retirement, become comfortable, less active and adopt unhealthy habits.

latexr 2y ago

> the passionate artist who isn't actually very good Your point stands even if said artist is good but can’t network. Hannah Gadsby makes that point about van Gogh in Nannette¹: people actively avoided him, so he didn’t find success in life. ¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Gadsby#Nanette https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Gadsby#Nanette

Yeul 2y ago

Funny I very rarely see anyone older than 40 in the IT industry. Where are these happy 70 year old coders hiding?

mystified5016 2y ago
At home because no one wants to hire them over age discrimination.
wormius 2y ago
Working on COBOL in a fortune 500 company.