7 ms·

> The gross vehicle weight rating of the NGDV with an ICE, including payload, is 8,501 lb (3,856 kg),[2]: Table 3-1.2 just one pound over the EPA's threshold t

> The gross vehicle weight rating of the NGDV with an ICE, including payload, is 8,501 lb (3,856 kg),[2]: Table 3-1.2 just one pound over the EPA's threshold to be considered a heavy-duty truck, allowing it to avoid more stringent pollution emissions and efficiency standards for light-duty trucks. Source: https://www.vice.com/en/article/the-new-usps-trucks-would-probably-be-illegal-if-they-weighed-one-pound-less/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/the-new-usps-trucks-would-pr... Not sure if that's still valid (obviously not for the electric versions), but that is actually insane.

infecto 2y ago
In my opinion these are a huge miss. Maybe I am overly optimistic but they generally are not carrying a lot of weight, fairy local and lots of stop and starts. Would have been amazing to at least get some hybrids in the mix.
- mayneack 2y ago
  A majority of them are full electric.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - mgerdts 2y ago
    Which was not the original plan. Luckily enough pressure was applied to improve the plan. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-postal-service-gas-trucks-electric-biden-epa/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-postal-service-gas-trucks-el...
    - nielsbot 2y ago
      I don’t get it. Wouldn’t electric vehicles save them money in the long run? A lot of money? EDIT: per this comment charging infrastructure was going to be a huge cost. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41544204 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41544204
      - notatoad 2y ago
        as usual with any large-scale procurement decision, it is a whole lot of politics. the anti-EV people were pushing against it, the defense contractors that run the government had more experience in gas powered vehicles, and the environmentalists were pushing for impractical targets like 100% EV, which just gave ammunition to the people who didn't want EVs. the cool thing here seems to be that practicality is actually going to win out, and the postal trucks will end up being EVs on routes where that makes sense, and internal combustion on routes where EVs don't make sense.
    - d0gsg0w00f 2y ago
      Press, followed by $3 billion extra budget from tax coffers.
      - IntelMiner 2y ago
        With the ever increasing cost (both financially and climate) of gasoline, it seems it would pay off in the long-term A friend's Tesla they once worked out costs about "$1 per gallon of gas" equivalent. Meanwhile gas in Seattle is about $4-$5 per gallon
        lotsofpulp 2y ago
        Depends on driving habits and price of electricity and gas. In Washington state, electricity is cheaper compared to most of the US, and gas is among the most expensive compared to most of the US. For less than ~10k miles per year, the higher up front cost of an electric vehicle and the greater depreciation due to eventual battery replacement might make a hybrid gas vehicle still cheaper per mile. But for high mileage, high frequency of stop and go driving, I imagine all electric is cheapest?
        adgjlsfhk1 2y ago
        the battery depreciation is per mile, so I don't think the mileage per year will factor into it heavily.
        quailfarmer 2y ago
        The published ratings of battery depreciation are per-mile, because there’s not really any other way to straightforwardly measure it, but the chemistry of battery degradation is very complex, and factors like number of high-current heating cycles and depth of discharge definitely matter.
        mgerdts 2y ago
        > might make a hybrid gas vehicle still cheaper per mile I agree. What is unconscionable is deploying 10s of thousands of vehicles that spend every day of operation accelerating rather quickly then coming to a full stop within a few seconds without using regenerative braking.
    - _heimdall 2y ago
      Its probably too soon to know if that pressure succeeding was lucky or a mistake. I love the idea of having an all electric fleet if it's feasible and better than the alternatives. I also have to assume the original plan to only electrify part of the fleet has functional reasons behind it. If those reasons are overcome, or if that decision was somehow entirely political, then the pressure is lucky. Otherwise...we'll see?
  - infecto 2y ago
    Not yet though. I would be curious how easy it is to have both an ice and ev next gen vehicle. It’s a waste imo to have both platforms.
    - toast0 2y ago
      It shouldn't be too big of a deal to have an ice and an ev share a truck style vehicle, because there's going to be structural support for batteries and probably room for them too; possibly requiring a higher load floor, but depends on design, I guess. Sounds like the target EV range is 70 mi, so the battery pack won't be super large. Ford makes the F-150 in ice, hybrid, phev, and full ev, I think.
      - Thorrez 2y ago
        I don't think there's a phev F-150.
    - Spooky23 2y ago
      Remember USPS provides universal service. How do you sustain an electric fleet everywhere in the US in 2024? If the postal service was run by a normal board and we had a less insane political environment, we’d build charging infrastructure to make to make it work. Alas, we live in this timeline.
- akira2501 2y ago
  > generally are not carrying a lot of weight 1000lbs is a lot of weight. Mail routes include package deliveries as well as mail and package pickups. Some business deliveries have large transactions every day. > fairy local and lots of stop and starts. Mail routes are not identical and there are plenty of rural USPS offices which deliver to the property. > to at least get some hybrids in the mix. Part of the point is to not have a mix to avoid all the attendant problems that creates.
  - infecto 2y ago
    But there is going to be a mix? Also 1000 lbs is not a lot of weight to account for here. Ignoring rural routes which are a different beast, these routes are local on mostly slower roads. That kind of weight needs to be accounted for but it’s negligible.
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    I live in a very rural area. We don't even have the 1980s era of mail trucks here, out delivery drivers have passenger SUVs and vans retrofitted for right hand drive. I'd be really surprised to see these new vehicles in truly rural areas any time soon.
    - zardo 2y ago
      That's because the mail trucks are not considered suitable for longer and higher speed routes. I would expect them to roll out to rural areas quickly so the USPS can get rid of the mishmash fleet.
      - kasey_junk 2y ago
        Rural carriers buy and maintain their own vehicles typically. https://about.usps.com/publications/pub181/pub181_v03_revision_012021_004.htm#:~:text=Generally%2C%20RCAs%20are%20required%20to,standard%20transmission%20are%20not%20recommended https://about.usps.com/publications/pub181/pub181_v03_revisi....
        2y ago
- Spooky23 2y ago
  I don’t know the details… but my dad was a rural mail carrier for awhile, and the roughness of the driving they do is difficult to understand. Rural carriers operate their own vehicles. The wear and tear was nuts… for example we would change brake pads every 2-3 weeks. I think USPS wants to operate vehicles for many years. I’d guess they may have determined that the regen braking or batteries for hybrid couldn’t sustain the harsh conditions within the operating cost envelope.
  - blagie 2y ago
    FWIW: Regen breaking has a lot less wear than normal breaking. Normal breaking needs to convert the energy into heat through friction, which wears things down. Storing that energy means nothing has to be worn down. For an application like this one, it's possible to use capacitors instead of batteries for a near-infinite lifespan too. A supercapacitor won't store enough charge for driving any sane distance, but for one stop and acceleration (regen breaking), it's perfectly adequate.
    - ygra 2y ago
      Buses sometimes have flywheels for that purpose, too. Although that also has weight and space, so may not be worthwhile for a vehicle where both are needed for its primary purpose.
      - blagie 2y ago
        Interesting. Where I live, the stops are too long for a flywheel to make any sense. The postal worker will usually deliver to a mailbox serving several houses, and will often have packages. Perhaps in the suburbs, where there are individual mailboxes for each house, it could work well. Still, if we take 8000 lbs, times (10mph)^2, and divide by 2, we get about 35kJ. First supercap which came up in a Google search does 1kJ for <$10. So it's like $350, and will have far less maintenance and better efficiency than a flywheel. If we do 20mph -- although goodness knows mail trucks here don't go nearly that fast for start-and-stop between mailboxes -- it's $1400. Even 40mpg would be around $5k. So it's very cheap (and, electronically, very easy), at least for this use case. For highway speeds, it'd be a different story.
- rodgerd 2y ago
  > In my opinion these are a huge miss. Oh, really? Can you share your expertise that trumps that of the people who work with them every day?
  - infecto 2y ago
    Roger, I was going to write a response to you but realized it probably would go over your head. Why don't you tell me what you disagree with Roger?
- fwipsy 2y ago
  There was a huge fight over what proportion of these trucks would be electric. Wikipedia says 75% of the initial order of 60,000 trucks will be electric, and after 2026 they will all be electric.
- milesskorpen 2y ago
  I don't get it. The article says most of the fleet will be electric.
- Theodores 2y ago
  As a kid I had a six hour paper round and a bicycle. I had my newspapers dropped off for me at four stops and nobody ever stole from them before I could get there - imagine that. In total, the mass of papers was about five times my own height, clearly a bit much to carry in one go. My 'cargo' was heavier than that of the postman, but that was in the days before ecommerce, and the post service (UK) handled packages differently, sending them out in different vehicles to what the letters went out in, if over a certain size. I also had to go to the door, not a mailbox at the side of the road. I was quicker than the postman with his cumbersome van. I was also quieter and more eco-friendly. I am not suggesting that the post service in America have teenage lads on bicycles delivering letters and parcels, however, there is a lot to be said for having smaller vehicles. Assuming I had one of these vehicles for free and all the fuel for it for free, would I have wanted one or been able to do my job quicker? Probably not, even if scaled down to half the size for UK roads. Maybe my opinion would differ mid winter and if I was middle aged. However, I would not have my stashes in bus stops, all 30 ft of newspapers would be in the van. There would be no incentive to optimise. Weight is your enemy in the delivery game and these vehicles are huge, yet typically American sized. If carrying a parcel to a door then that is going to be less than ten kilos in most cases, but if we assume 10kg, does that really need a vehicle with stuff weighing 300x upwards? What they really needed was a range extending EV. These are not Prius style hybrids but they have a generator that runs at optimal RPM to charge the main battery. The original BMW EV, the i3 had this and it was a tech that wasn't really needed since those cars were overpriced and only ever did city journeys where the range extender was not needed. The range extender can be chucked out as charging infrastructure improves and the battery can be updated to a new one that has more oomph for the same weight/size.
  - Brybry 2y ago
    Just remember that road conditions and climate can be vastly different in the US compared to the UK. The previous delivery vehicle[1] has no air conditioning. Which is a really big deal with how hot it gets in a lot of the US. And if your vehicle is smaller and most other vehicles are larger and there's an accident then you're more likely to die. [2] You may well be right that in an optimal scenario that smaller is better for delivery but the US has a wide variety of non-optimal scenarios. I don't think the NGDV is perfect but I'm happy that USPS employees will be safer and happier. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_LLV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_LLV [2] https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/latest-driver-death-rates-highlight-dangers-of-muscle-cars#:~:text=smaller%20vehicles%20have%20high%20driver%20death https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/latest-driver-death-rates-h...
- Meph504 2y ago
  Hybrids are great until it comes to long term maintenance where you are not having to manage and work on two different systems. Having personal who can work on both electrical and gas has been one of the issues with the hybrid adoption in fleet vehicles with other groups. Not to say it isn't worth exploring, but I do know it is a common issue when discussed.
unyttigfjelltol 2y ago
Government gaming its own regulations.
- blahyawnblah 2y ago
  Military F250/350 all have emission deletes
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    The military cares about reliability. Emissions systems on modern heavy duty civilian trucks are hell on reliability. There's a reason many people owning diesel trucks in states that don't do emissions testing pay a lot of money to delete the systems after purchase.
- ProllyInfamous 2y ago
  My homestate [Texas] does not require federal/state agencies to follow local building codes. My new state [Tennessee] just ended government construction inspections. Pay - to - play, folks.
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    That's worse than pay-to-play. I lived in a tourist-driven coastal town for a few years, builders there regularly paid off our corrupt mayor to avoid the rules. When the government is dodging its own rules its "rules for the, not for me."
    - ProllyInfamous 2y ago
      >builders there regularly paid off our corrupt mayor to avoid the rules. I stopped being an electrical sub-contractor after a local mansion builder told me to "stop worrying about the other trades[†], I have insurance for a reason." †: floor-heat guy wanted to run his 35A through my 16A circuit, "don't make this harder than it needs to be."
sieabahlpark 2y ago
Nope that's how CAFE standards work. You can thank the EPA for that! Instead of building more efficient small cars it becomes impossible to make them meet the efficiency requirements without making the car cost so much extra through fines. So instead you just get more "trucks" and SUVs. No more sedans! Those are the vehicles killing the planet!
- fshbbdssbbgdd 2y ago
  Is the limit really 8500 to get into that unregulated category? Small SUVs are very popular and are basically sedans on stilts and weigh a lot less than 8500. So I don’t think you could blame the death of sedans on that rule, if that’s indeed what the rule is.
  - macNchz 2y ago
    There are other standards that can put vehicles in different emissions categories. I believe the one that most crossover SUVs target is being considered “off road”, by having four wheel drive and meeting a few ground clearance specifications: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/part-523#p-523.5(b) https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/part-523#p-523.5(b) The goal of promoting these small SUVs instead of sedans is actually because they’re quite fuel efficient: being in the same category as much larger trucks, they pull up the average fuel economy and take the pressure off manufacturers to make their highly-profitable bigger SUVs more efficient.
  - hedora 2y ago
    GVWR includes passengers and cargo when fully loaded. 8000 lbs is not totally crazy for a delivery vehicle. It probably weighs at least 2000-3000 lbs empty (with batteries). Imagine a small business that tries to mail ten pound boxes. If they can fit ten by ten per layer in the van, once the pile of boxes is five layers tall, you’re basically at the van’s specs.
    - QuarterReptile 2y ago
      A 10 year old Ford Focus weighs 2900lb empty. I'd be impressed if this truck weighs less than 5k empty.
dialup_sounds 2y ago
The NGDV is based on the 9500lb Ford Transit, so it's more like they started with a heavy-duty truck and scaled down.
- mmis1000 2y ago
  It does look like a lengthen truck head though.
- shawn_w 2y ago
  It's not based on the Transit. One of the submitted designs was, but it didn't win the contract bid. Edit: looks like it was an early prototype from Oshkosh with very little in common with the final product: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a19445176/this-ford-transit-usps-truck-prototype-could-be-hauling-your-mail-soon/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a19445176/this-ford-transi... and https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2021/02/23/oshkosh-won-usps-bid-may-team-up-ford/4565972001/ https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2021/02/23/oshko... mentions not using the Transit design.
  - dialup_sounds 2y ago
    "Based on" meaning that's what they started with: the same heavy delivery truck that everyone uses. It's clearly not a Transit (USPS already has E Transits in service) but they obviously didn't just take a light truck and then add a pound to skirt emissions, either.
logifail 2y ago
My maths may be way off, but isn't this around 80% heavier than the Deutsche Post DHL Group StreetScooter Work delivery vehicle from 2017... ? ( https://www.ft.com/content/c6913394-1ea6-11e7-a454-ab04428977f9 https://www.ft.com/content/c6913394-1ea6-11e7-a454-ab0442897... / https://archive.is/AlyRj https://archive.is/AlyRj ) Is the NGDV heavier because it's "better" (=more capable) or is its size and weight really to do with avoiding the EPA threshold - or even that it's derived from a full-size US truck?
- _heimdall 2y ago
  710kg for the Deutsche vehicle is only for the payload, that doesn't include the weight of the vehicle. I found a PDF fact sheet for the vehicle [1], it looks like the gross vehicle weight rating (vehicle + payload) is 2,800kg. That is still 1,000kg less than the USPS vehicle, but I wouldn't be suprised if that comes down to a combination of capacity, safety requirements, and maybe top speed needs in the US compared to the average European city. [1] https://group.dhl.com/content/dam/deutschepostdhl/en/media-center/media-relations/documents/2021/factsheet-streetscooter-work-l.pdf https://group.dhl.com/content/dam/deutschepostdhl/en/media-c...
  - logifail 2y ago
    > 710kg for the Deutsche vehicle is only for the payload, that doesn't include the weight of the vehicle for StreetScooter Work Curb/Unladen Weight: 1,275 kg (2,811 lbs) Max Laden Weight (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating): 2,130 kg (4,696 lbs) NGDV with an ICE (according to the OP) Curb/Unladen Weight: 2,523 kg (5,560 lbs) > I found a PDF fact sheet for the vehicle That datasheet appears to be for the Work L which is a different model: "Shown in September 2016 at the IAA Commercial Vehicles trade fair, the Work L prototype is a longer and slightly higher vehicle with almost double the cargo volume"[0] > I wouldn't be suprised if that comes down to a combination of capacity, safety requirements, and maybe top speed needs in the US compared to the average European city I'm not able to judge capacity or safety requirements, but the Work's maximum speed is 120 km/h (75mph). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StreetScooter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StreetScooter
Loic 2y ago
> The problem, Dejoy said, wasn’t that he didn’t want electric vehicles. Rather, the expense of the vehicles, compounded by the costs of installing thousands of charging stations and upgrading electrical service, made them unaffordable at a time when the agency was reporting big operating deficits every quarter. It is worth reading the full article, it covers the environmental aspects and tradeoffs very well.
blagie 2y ago
The emissions standards make zero sense here. USPS trucks don't spend hardly any time on normal driving. They move 10 feet, stop, move 10 feet, stop, etc. Emissions standards aren't set up around that, and I would not expect them to pass. There are red flags, though. From another article: > While the specific numbers vary based on a vehicle’s exact dimensions—information the USPS considers trade secrets—Sperling estimates a light duty truck approximately the size of a USPS delivery truck would need to achieve something in the neighborhood of 30 mpg to pass federal regulations Seems like someone forgot or gamed FOIA.

infecto 2y ago

In my opinion these are a huge miss. Maybe I am overly optimistic but they generally are not carrying a lot of weight, fairy local and lots of stop and starts. Would have been amazing to at least get some hybrids in the mix.

mayneack 2y ago
A majority of them are full electric.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- mgerdts 2y ago
  Which was not the original plan. Luckily enough pressure was applied to improve the plan. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-postal-service-gas-trucks-electric-biden-epa/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-postal-service-gas-trucks-el...
  - nielsbot 2y ago
    I don’t get it. Wouldn’t electric vehicles save them money in the long run? A lot of money? EDIT: per this comment charging infrastructure was going to be a huge cost. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41544204 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41544204
    - notatoad 2y ago
      as usual with any large-scale procurement decision, it is a whole lot of politics. the anti-EV people were pushing against it, the defense contractors that run the government had more experience in gas powered vehicles, and the environmentalists were pushing for impractical targets like 100% EV, which just gave ammunition to the people who didn't want EVs. the cool thing here seems to be that practicality is actually going to win out, and the postal trucks will end up being EVs on routes where that makes sense, and internal combustion on routes where EVs don't make sense.
  - d0gsg0w00f 2y ago
    Press, followed by $3 billion extra budget from tax coffers.
    - IntelMiner 2y ago
      With the ever increasing cost (both financially and climate) of gasoline, it seems it would pay off in the long-term A friend's Tesla they once worked out costs about "$1 per gallon of gas" equivalent. Meanwhile gas in Seattle is about $4-$5 per gallon
      - lotsofpulp 2y ago
        Depends on driving habits and price of electricity and gas. In Washington state, electricity is cheaper compared to most of the US, and gas is among the most expensive compared to most of the US. For less than ~10k miles per year, the higher up front cost of an electric vehicle and the greater depreciation due to eventual battery replacement might make a hybrid gas vehicle still cheaper per mile. But for high mileage, high frequency of stop and go driving, I imagine all electric is cheapest?
        adgjlsfhk1 2y ago
        the battery depreciation is per mile, so I don't think the mileage per year will factor into it heavily.
        quailfarmer 2y ago
        The published ratings of battery depreciation are per-mile, because there’s not really any other way to straightforwardly measure it, but the chemistry of battery degradation is very complex, and factors like number of high-current heating cycles and depth of discharge definitely matter.
        mgerdts 2y ago
        > might make a hybrid gas vehicle still cheaper per mile I agree. What is unconscionable is deploying 10s of thousands of vehicles that spend every day of operation accelerating rather quickly then coming to a full stop within a few seconds without using regenerative braking.
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    Its probably too soon to know if that pressure succeeding was lucky or a mistake. I love the idea of having an all electric fleet if it's feasible and better than the alternatives. I also have to assume the original plan to only electrify part of the fleet has functional reasons behind it. If those reasons are overcome, or if that decision was somehow entirely political, then the pressure is lucky. Otherwise...we'll see?
- infecto 2y ago
  Not yet though. I would be curious how easy it is to have both an ice and ev next gen vehicle. It’s a waste imo to have both platforms.
  - toast0 2y ago
    It shouldn't be too big of a deal to have an ice and an ev share a truck style vehicle, because there's going to be structural support for batteries and probably room for them too; possibly requiring a higher load floor, but depends on design, I guess. Sounds like the target EV range is 70 mi, so the battery pack won't be super large. Ford makes the F-150 in ice, hybrid, phev, and full ev, I think.
    - Thorrez 2y ago
      I don't think there's a phev F-150.
  - Spooky23 2y ago
    Remember USPS provides universal service. How do you sustain an electric fleet everywhere in the US in 2024? If the postal service was run by a normal board and we had a less insane political environment, we’d build charging infrastructure to make to make it work. Alas, we live in this timeline.
akira2501 2y ago
> generally are not carrying a lot of weight 1000lbs is a lot of weight. Mail routes include package deliveries as well as mail and package pickups. Some business deliveries have large transactions every day. > fairy local and lots of stop and starts. Mail routes are not identical and there are plenty of rural USPS offices which deliver to the property. > to at least get some hybrids in the mix. Part of the point is to not have a mix to avoid all the attendant problems that creates.
- infecto 2y ago
  But there is going to be a mix? Also 1000 lbs is not a lot of weight to account for here. Ignoring rural routes which are a different beast, these routes are local on mostly slower roads. That kind of weight needs to be accounted for but it’s negligible.
- _heimdall 2y ago
  I live in a very rural area. We don't even have the 1980s era of mail trucks here, out delivery drivers have passenger SUVs and vans retrofitted for right hand drive. I'd be really surprised to see these new vehicles in truly rural areas any time soon.
  - zardo 2y ago
    That's because the mail trucks are not considered suitable for longer and higher speed routes. I would expect them to roll out to rural areas quickly so the USPS can get rid of the mishmash fleet.
    - kasey_junk 2y ago
      Rural carriers buy and maintain their own vehicles typically. https://about.usps.com/publications/pub181/pub181_v03_revision_012021_004.htm#:~:text=Generally%2C%20RCAs%20are%20required%20to,standard%20transmission%20are%20not%20recommended https://about.usps.com/publications/pub181/pub181_v03_revisi....
      - 2y ago
Spooky23 2y ago
I don’t know the details… but my dad was a rural mail carrier for awhile, and the roughness of the driving they do is difficult to understand. Rural carriers operate their own vehicles. The wear and tear was nuts… for example we would change brake pads every 2-3 weeks. I think USPS wants to operate vehicles for many years. I’d guess they may have determined that the regen braking or batteries for hybrid couldn’t sustain the harsh conditions within the operating cost envelope.
- blagie 2y ago
  FWIW: Regen breaking has a lot less wear than normal breaking. Normal breaking needs to convert the energy into heat through friction, which wears things down. Storing that energy means nothing has to be worn down. For an application like this one, it's possible to use capacitors instead of batteries for a near-infinite lifespan too. A supercapacitor won't store enough charge for driving any sane distance, but for one stop and acceleration (regen breaking), it's perfectly adequate.
  - ygra 2y ago
    Buses sometimes have flywheels for that purpose, too. Although that also has weight and space, so may not be worthwhile for a vehicle where both are needed for its primary purpose.
    - blagie 2y ago
      Interesting. Where I live, the stops are too long for a flywheel to make any sense. The postal worker will usually deliver to a mailbox serving several houses, and will often have packages. Perhaps in the suburbs, where there are individual mailboxes for each house, it could work well. Still, if we take 8000 lbs, times (10mph)^2, and divide by 2, we get about 35kJ. First supercap which came up in a Google search does 1kJ for <$10. So it's like $350, and will have far less maintenance and better efficiency than a flywheel. If we do 20mph -- although goodness knows mail trucks here don't go nearly that fast for start-and-stop between mailboxes -- it's $1400. Even 40mpg would be around $5k. So it's very cheap (and, electronically, very easy), at least for this use case. For highway speeds, it'd be a different story.
rodgerd 2y ago
> In my opinion these are a huge miss. Oh, really? Can you share your expertise that trumps that of the people who work with them every day?
- infecto 2y ago
  Roger, I was going to write a response to you but realized it probably would go over your head. Why don't you tell me what you disagree with Roger?
fwipsy 2y ago
There was a huge fight over what proportion of these trucks would be electric. Wikipedia says 75% of the initial order of 60,000 trucks will be electric, and after 2026 they will all be electric.
milesskorpen 2y ago
I don't get it. The article says most of the fleet will be electric.
Theodores 2y ago
As a kid I had a six hour paper round and a bicycle. I had my newspapers dropped off for me at four stops and nobody ever stole from them before I could get there - imagine that. In total, the mass of papers was about five times my own height, clearly a bit much to carry in one go. My 'cargo' was heavier than that of the postman, but that was in the days before ecommerce, and the post service (UK) handled packages differently, sending them out in different vehicles to what the letters went out in, if over a certain size. I also had to go to the door, not a mailbox at the side of the road. I was quicker than the postman with his cumbersome van. I was also quieter and more eco-friendly. I am not suggesting that the post service in America have teenage lads on bicycles delivering letters and parcels, however, there is a lot to be said for having smaller vehicles. Assuming I had one of these vehicles for free and all the fuel for it for free, would I have wanted one or been able to do my job quicker? Probably not, even if scaled down to half the size for UK roads. Maybe my opinion would differ mid winter and if I was middle aged. However, I would not have my stashes in bus stops, all 30 ft of newspapers would be in the van. There would be no incentive to optimise. Weight is your enemy in the delivery game and these vehicles are huge, yet typically American sized. If carrying a parcel to a door then that is going to be less than ten kilos in most cases, but if we assume 10kg, does that really need a vehicle with stuff weighing 300x upwards? What they really needed was a range extending EV. These are not Prius style hybrids but they have a generator that runs at optimal RPM to charge the main battery. The original BMW EV, the i3 had this and it was a tech that wasn't really needed since those cars were overpriced and only ever did city journeys where the range extender was not needed. The range extender can be chucked out as charging infrastructure improves and the battery can be updated to a new one that has more oomph for the same weight/size.
- Brybry 2y ago
  Just remember that road conditions and climate can be vastly different in the US compared to the UK. The previous delivery vehicle[1] has no air conditioning. Which is a really big deal with how hot it gets in a lot of the US. And if your vehicle is smaller and most other vehicles are larger and there's an accident then you're more likely to die. [2] You may well be right that in an optimal scenario that smaller is better for delivery but the US has a wide variety of non-optimal scenarios. I don't think the NGDV is perfect but I'm happy that USPS employees will be safer and happier. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_LLV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_LLV [2] https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/latest-driver-death-rates-highlight-dangers-of-muscle-cars#:~:text=smaller%20vehicles%20have%20high%20driver%20death https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/latest-driver-death-rates-h...
Meph504 2y ago
Hybrids are great until it comes to long term maintenance where you are not having to manage and work on two different systems. Having personal who can work on both electrical and gas has been one of the issues with the hybrid adoption in fleet vehicles with other groups. Not to say it isn't worth exploring, but I do know it is a common issue when discussed.

unyttigfjelltol 2y ago

Government gaming its own regulations.

blahyawnblah 2y ago
Military F250/350 all have emission deletes
- _heimdall 2y ago
  The military cares about reliability. Emissions systems on modern heavy duty civilian trucks are hell on reliability. There's a reason many people owning diesel trucks in states that don't do emissions testing pay a lot of money to delete the systems after purchase.
ProllyInfamous 2y ago
My homestate [Texas] does not require federal/state agencies to follow local building codes. My new state [Tennessee] just ended government construction inspections. Pay - to - play, folks.
- _heimdall 2y ago
  That's worse than pay-to-play. I lived in a tourist-driven coastal town for a few years, builders there regularly paid off our corrupt mayor to avoid the rules. When the government is dodging its own rules its "rules for the, not for me."
  - ProllyInfamous 2y ago
    >builders there regularly paid off our corrupt mayor to avoid the rules. I stopped being an electrical sub-contractor after a local mansion builder told me to "stop worrying about the other trades[†], I have insurance for a reason." †: floor-heat guy wanted to run his 35A through my 16A circuit, "don't make this harder than it needs to be."

sieabahlpark 2y ago

Nope that's how CAFE standards work. You can thank the EPA for that! Instead of building more efficient small cars it becomes impossible to make them meet the efficiency requirements without making the car cost so much extra through fines. So instead you just get more "trucks" and SUVs. No more sedans! Those are the vehicles killing the planet!

fshbbdssbbgdd 2y ago
Is the limit really 8500 to get into that unregulated category? Small SUVs are very popular and are basically sedans on stilts and weigh a lot less than 8500. So I don’t think you could blame the death of sedans on that rule, if that’s indeed what the rule is.
- macNchz 2y ago
  There are other standards that can put vehicles in different emissions categories. I believe the one that most crossover SUVs target is being considered “off road”, by having four wheel drive and meeting a few ground clearance specifications: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/part-523#p-523.5(b) https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/part-523#p-523.5(b) The goal of promoting these small SUVs instead of sedans is actually because they’re quite fuel efficient: being in the same category as much larger trucks, they pull up the average fuel economy and take the pressure off manufacturers to make their highly-profitable bigger SUVs more efficient.
- hedora 2y ago
  GVWR includes passengers and cargo when fully loaded. 8000 lbs is not totally crazy for a delivery vehicle. It probably weighs at least 2000-3000 lbs empty (with batteries). Imagine a small business that tries to mail ten pound boxes. If they can fit ten by ten per layer in the van, once the pile of boxes is five layers tall, you’re basically at the van’s specs.
  - QuarterReptile 2y ago
    A 10 year old Ford Focus weighs 2900lb empty. I'd be impressed if this truck weighs less than 5k empty.

dialup_sounds 2y ago

The NGDV is based on the 9500lb Ford Transit, so it's more like they started with a heavy-duty truck and scaled down.

mmis1000 2y ago
It does look like a lengthen truck head though.
shawn_w 2y ago
It's not based on the Transit. One of the submitted designs was, but it didn't win the contract bid. Edit: looks like it was an early prototype from Oshkosh with very little in common with the final product: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a19445176/this-ford-transit-usps-truck-prototype-could-be-hauling-your-mail-soon/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a19445176/this-ford-transi... and https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2021/02/23/oshkosh-won-usps-bid-may-team-up-ford/4565972001/ https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2021/02/23/oshko... mentions not using the Transit design.
- dialup_sounds 2y ago
  "Based on" meaning that's what they started with: the same heavy delivery truck that everyone uses. It's clearly not a Transit (USPS already has E Transits in service) but they obviously didn't just take a light truck and then add a pound to skirt emissions, either.

logifail 2y ago

My maths may be way off, but isn't this around 80% heavier than the Deutsche Post DHL Group StreetScooter Work delivery vehicle from 2017... ? ( https://www.ft.com/content/c6913394-1ea6-11e7-a454-ab04428977f9 https://www.ft.com/content/c6913394-1ea6-11e7-a454-ab0442897... / https://archive.is/AlyRj https://archive.is/AlyRj ) Is the NGDV heavier because it's "better" (=more capable) or is its size and weight really to do with avoiding the EPA threshold - or even that it's derived from a full-size US truck?

_heimdall 2y ago
710kg for the Deutsche vehicle is only for the payload, that doesn't include the weight of the vehicle. I found a PDF fact sheet for the vehicle [1], it looks like the gross vehicle weight rating (vehicle + payload) is 2,800kg. That is still 1,000kg less than the USPS vehicle, but I wouldn't be suprised if that comes down to a combination of capacity, safety requirements, and maybe top speed needs in the US compared to the average European city. [1] https://group.dhl.com/content/dam/deutschepostdhl/en/media-center/media-relations/documents/2021/factsheet-streetscooter-work-l.pdf https://group.dhl.com/content/dam/deutschepostdhl/en/media-c...
- logifail 2y ago
  > 710kg for the Deutsche vehicle is only for the payload, that doesn't include the weight of the vehicle for StreetScooter Work Curb/Unladen Weight: 1,275 kg (2,811 lbs) Max Laden Weight (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating): 2,130 kg (4,696 lbs) NGDV with an ICE (according to the OP) Curb/Unladen Weight: 2,523 kg (5,560 lbs) > I found a PDF fact sheet for the vehicle That datasheet appears to be for the Work L which is a different model: "Shown in September 2016 at the IAA Commercial Vehicles trade fair, the Work L prototype is a longer and slightly higher vehicle with almost double the cargo volume"[0] > I wouldn't be suprised if that comes down to a combination of capacity, safety requirements, and maybe top speed needs in the US compared to the average European city I'm not able to judge capacity or safety requirements, but the Work's maximum speed is 120 km/h (75mph). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StreetScooter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StreetScooter

Loic 2y ago

> The problem, Dejoy said, wasn’t that he didn’t want electric vehicles. Rather, the expense of the vehicles, compounded by the costs of installing thousands of charging stations and upgrading electrical service, made them unaffordable at a time when the agency was reporting big operating deficits every quarter. It is worth reading the full article, it covers the environmental aspects and tradeoffs very well.

blagie 2y ago

The emissions standards make zero sense here. USPS trucks don't spend hardly any time on normal driving. They move 10 feet, stop, move 10 feet, stop, etc. Emissions standards aren't set up around that, and I would not expect them to pass. There are red flags, though. From another article: > While the specific numbers vary based on a vehicle’s exact dimensions—information the USPS considers trade secrets—Sperling estimates a light duty truck approximately the size of a USPS delivery truck would need to achieve something in the neighborhood of 30 mpg to pass federal regulations Seems like someone forgot or gamed FOIA.