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Well, those civilians who can think for themselves, especially about the consequences of their actions, are clearly in advantage. I am lacking empathy for thos
by lynx23 2y ago
Well, those civilians who can think for themselves, especially about the consequences of their actions, are clearly in advantage. I am lacking empathy for those who are apparently so hooked up to the here-and-now that they seem to ignore the future. If you sell your body, most societies will punish you. Thats fine, societies have all sorts of norms we all need to learn.
- dragonwriter 2y ago> If you sell your body, most societies will punish you. No, if you sell sex, lots of societies will punish you. Selling or renting your body otherwise -- which a very large share of jobs involve just as much as sex work does -- is otherwise lauded. > Thats fine, societies have all sorts of norms we all need to learn. Lots of norms that societies have or historically have had would be better eliminated. That something is an existing norm isn't an argument in favor of it being a norm.
- Freak_NL 2y ago> If you sell your body, most societies will punish you. Thats [sic] fine, […] How is that 'fine'? I would like to see a future where someone doing sex work to make ends meet (or even as a freely chosen profession!) is not ostracised for it. Sex is part of society whether you want it or not, and so is paying for sexual acts.
- lynx23 2y agoThats also fine. You can "like to see" everything you want. Question is, what the rest of society believes. Oldest bussiness and all that, I am actually on your side. But that doesn't mean I can ignore what overall society feels and thinks. Besides, there is a difference between consuming payed sex, and having a relationship with a (ex) sex worker. The difference is quite huge.
- bad_user 2y agoI would like to see a future where people shouldn't have to prostitute themselves to make ends meet. Some cultural norms are outdated, but prostitution is still degrading and dangerous for those practicing it, especially for the women; who may not be doing so willingly, prostitution being the main incentive for human trafficking. And the online medium doesn't change that by much. Some people may be willing to pay for sex, some people are willing to pay for many other things or activities that should be or are illegal.
- Freak_NL 2y agoSex work will never go away. The only way forward is to make sure it can be done safely and legally. Consider the sex workers who deal with mentally or physically disabled adults. Most people have sexual urges, and those who are unable to participate in society in the usual way of addressing their urges with a romantic partner or a one-night stand still have them. There are a good number of very professional sex workers out there who can provide these people with sex (often with specific expertise for the relevant handicaps) and generally significantly improve the wellbeing. Are those sex workers doing something they shouldn't be doing?
- medo-bear 2y ago> Are those sex workers doing something they shouldn't be doing? You are asking a binary question for which there isn't a binary answer. Better to ask are those sex workers doing something they will get a pat on their backs for from other members of society? In a way a builder, chef, firefighter, and even a prison guard would.
- paulryanrogers 2y agoPerhaps the lack of a "pat on the back" is society's fault.
- swagasaurus-rex 2y agoWhy? it’s so easy to make content
- paulryanrogers 2y agoWell folks appreciate different things and to different degrees. Some are born with natural talents and others work hard for it. Regardless, folks generally get at least some respect for doing the work to produce things others appreciate. Stigmatizing OF work seems unfair when so much praise is heaped on creators and workers of all other kinds.
- beaglesss 2y agoSociety accepting sex work is the worst thing that can happen to sex workers. They can have their cake and eat it right now -- not terribly illegal in the west but shunned which limits competition. When it becomes fine, it will be worth no more than someone coming to mow your lawn, and probably less than that.
- ithkuil 2y agoWouldn't that put at least some pressure into pursuing other options (like mowing somebody's lawn)?
- ithkuil 2y agoWouldn't that be an incentive towards other career paths (such as mowing lawns)? EDIT: brace for the lawn mowing cartels led by ex human trafficking gangs. On a more serious note, there is so much criminality involved in that field precisely because it's illegal and lucrative. You remove that and you remove a lot of abuse.
- ptsneves 2y agoWow i never thought of that! I love this reasoning (no sarcasm intended!). Based on supply/demand, the lack of social acceptance leads to low supply which in turn makes sure the price matches the moral cost. I honestly wished it was not (considered) degrading and just as acceptable as any hospitality service, although in my culture it is indeed immoral to take or provide sex services. Even so if it still is degrading indeed there should be a matching cost, but damn economics is a tricky one.
- lennxa 2y agonot treating sex workers like crap doesnt mean they'll make lesser. one must also consider the monetary equivalents of the mental health of the worker. and the demand will increase by a lot too.
- mgaunard 2y agoThere are many countries in the west where prostitution is legal and taxed like any other activity. It seems the main complain is that it brings the prices down due to competition from eastern europe.
- amelius 2y agoIt's fine because otherwise we'd evolve into the social structure of Bonobo monkeys, where every problem is solved with sex.
- sheepdestroyer 2y agoNot following why that, if true, would make the current situation better ("fine").
- prmoustache 2y ago> where every problem is solved with sex. Would it be a problem?
- sulandor 2y agoobviously better than fighting
- zakki 2y agoYes. Till this day Bonobo has no invention. Do you like this kind of society?
- ath3nd 2y agoOne could argue that it's better to have no inventions than inventing the following: - the Spanish inquisition - jihad/crusades - guns - PFAS - agent orange - iron maiden (not the band, the torture device) - the atomic bomb
- prmoustache 2y agoWell it depends what kind of society brings the most happiness out of our lives. I can't say, I have never lived as a Bonobo.
- Der_Einzige 2y agoThis is exactly what everyone means by “return to monke”
- medo-bear 2y agoI would certainly not like to live in a future where selling your body to make ends meet is considered normal. To me it is already concerning that normalization of prostitution is happening to some extent in mass media. Sex is in all (?) human cultures viewed as most intimate and private expression of civilized love. It is also how we teach our kids about sex. Pornography and prostitution serve only our primal desires which goes against all this. Does it really surprise you that society will shun people that partake in these things? To me it is obvious as day.
- kwhitefoot 2y agoWe all have to sell ourselves in order to live. I'm sure that there are plenty of people working at jobs that they thoroughly dislike. Shouldn't we concentrate on making sure that people really have a choice rather than on discriminating against people who make a choice?
- medo-bear 2y agoDiscrimination against people making the wrong choices is natural. Discriination against people repenting for the wrong choices is wrong
- smolder 2y ago> Sex is part of society whether you want it or not, and so is paying for sexual acts. Yes, and this seems to be a discussion of whether people want it or not. I don't think paid sex acts ruin the world. Some people probably need it in place of real intimacy, for their own mental health. I still think it's generally scummy and unproductive. Then again, I think all sorts of businesses can be described that way. Snake oil has been killing it for as long as commerce has been around. Another example: if you go around gutting productive companies to line your own pockets, e.g. buying & dismantling competitors to stop competition, I see that as a greater moral failing than baiting lonely people with sex appeal. It's common that people forget or fail to understand that business is a way to cooperatively shape life into something desirable, and instead see it as a way to win at others expense.
- k33jf33l2 2y ago[flagged]
- mihaic 2y agoIf you want to take purely moral grounds, there's nothing to make prostitution or Onlyfans "wrong", except if done with exploitation. At the same time, it contributes to the demographic crysis, and if you care about results, you have to put pressure against the lifestyles that are nudging people away from starting a family and having kids. Drug dealers are also part of society, yet we still frown upon them.
- I-M-S 2y agoAn individual has no obligation to respect a societal order that doesn't respect them back.
- mihaic 2y agoWhy do you say that? Most individuals that aren't respected by society had that respect, yet lost it through some action (like dealing drugs). I think we're seeing things in different frameworks, and I'm considering the end result more important than the principles here. If you don't accept that some seemingly individual decisions have a cumulated effect on society long-term, and that shaming is the only mechanism to make changes here, there really is no discourse possible.
- matrix87 2y ago> I would like to see a future where someone doing sex work to make ends meet It's better to have a future where people don't have to do SW to make ends meet A future where more people get forced into sex work because of economic reasons is not desirable. Consider the diseases, conflict with cultural norms, potential for rape and abuse Sex should be freely given. "Free laborers" aren't freely giving their labor, they're forced to for economic reasons
- benterix 2y ago> If you sell your body, most societies will punish you. Why though? It is an interesting issue when you look closer. For an individual, it's more obvious - I wouldn't like to be with a prostitute because of possible hidden diseases and lack of trust - but there is no way of telling how many sexual contacts my new partner had, whether paid for or not. But I wouldn't have any problem working with an ex-pro in the same company or team, they would be just a colleague like all the rest, and I can't imagine any adult making any immature comments about the past of any colleagues on my team.
- tessierashpool9 2y agosame here, i think some people are just a little too submissive and uncritical to the so called rules of society. also engaging in porn or even prostitution isn't really "selling" of one's body.
- DiggyJohnson 2y agoLeasing, then?
- victorbjorklund 2y agois a selfie leasing your head?
- ath3nd 2y agoPeople working in the mines, or the military, I wonder why that's a socially acceptable way of "selling" their body, but prostitution is not. Even we, behind a computer screen and getting back pain and wrist RSI, we also "sell" our bodies in a matter of speaking. I can only imagine that the negative perception of prostitution as "selling" your body is coming from mainstream religions which are the great society moralizer.
- TeMPOraL 2y agoEven coming from mainstream religions, that's annoyingly knee-jerk. Sure, prostitution is shameful and sinful and whatnot, but what about maliciously lying to your neighbor, trying to get rich off their misfortune? Even from a mainstream religious perspective, marketing gives prostitution a run for its money, and outside that framework, arguably it's less shameful to do OF than to be a "regular" influencer, or go into telemarketing. At least with this kind of sex work, all parties to transaction tend to benefit, and all are in it voluntarily.
- ht85 2y ago> I am lacking empathy for those who are apparently so hooked up to the here-and-now A large amount of those people are very young, at an age where you don't really pick your options solely on their super long term consequences. Most people are going to be "stupid" in their early adulthood, failing and adjusting is a big part of it. Unfortunately, some of those decisions will stick more than others and sex work is very sticky (zing).
- lynx23 2y agoSo, if young people are unable to take responsibility for their actions, we will need to raise the age for maturity... I am sorry, adults are adults are adults. Either you make your own decisions or you don't.
- brainwad 2y agoUnironically the former. It's weird that we have at the same time reduced the legal age of adulthood, while simultaneously extended the actual period of adolescence and dependence for the average young person. It used to be a century ago, that you started working for a wage at 14 and didn't get legal independence until 21. Now you get legal independence at 18 but might be in full time education until you are 25 (with a masters).
- djtango 2y agoYah my mum was helping out with the family business around age 5. It's kind of crazy to think how quickly its swung from having that kind of responsibility thrust on you from so young to now where people in their mid 20s may still be in their "incubatory" period
- jdasdf 2y ago>A large amount of those people are very young, at an age where you don't really pick your options solely on their super long term consequences. And they will continue to be if there are never any consequences. Stop bailing people out of problems they make for themselves and people will start learning to not make those problems. Human beings are not stupid machines who see others put their hand in the fire, getting burned, then they put their own hands in the fire get burned, and then keep doing it over and over again. Most will stop when they see others get burned, others still will stop when they get burned, and a small minority will stop once there is no hand left to burn.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- croes 2y agoSome societies had the norm to punish gay people, at least many learned that was wrong Somehow it's mainly the ones who sells their body and not the ones who buy them who get punished. Buying is more often voluntarily than selling.
- djbusby 2y ago> If you sell your body That's how all labor works.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- standardUser 2y agoHistorically, many of societies' "norms" have been hateful, vile and narrowly targeted. There is a thousand years of history showing us that we are better off challenging norms than adhering to them.