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> Noisy and fuel-inefficient (9 mpg), the Grummans are costly to maintain. > Environmentalists were outraged when DeJoy announced that 90% of the next-gen vehi

by non- 2y ago

> Noisy and fuel-inefficient (9 mpg), the Grummans are costly to maintain. > Environmentalists were outraged when DeJoy announced that 90% of the next-gen vehicles in the first order would be gas-powered. I was gonna say they environmentalists were wrong for this, if the new trucks get significantly better mpg performance that's still a big win. But apparently with the AC running the new trucks still only get 9mpg.[1][2] [1] https://earthjustice.org/press/2022/message-delivered-usps-charts-a-course-for-an-electric-mail-truck-fleet#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20the%20Postal%20Service,with%20the%20air%20conditioning%20on https://earthjustice.org/press/2022/message-delivered-usps-c.... [2] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/02/the-epa-and-white-house-take-fire-at-inefficient-new-mail-trucks/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/02/the-epa-and-white-house...

dgfitz 2y ago
I can’t quickly find the mileage with the AC not running. More to the point, it is mostly a myth that running the AC uses a significant amount of fuel. The compressor is usually driven by the serpentine belt, and adding the clutch plate for the AC into that system does not add significant drag. A little, yes.
- FateOfNations 2y ago
  It can have some added effects for more modern vehicles. For example, if the AC is running in my car, the engine auto start/stop is disabled.
- anamexis 2y ago
  I would assume it's not the clutch plate that adds significant drag, but the AC compressor itself.
  - dgfitz 2y ago
    Yeah I could have phrased that better. The clutch plate engaging the compressor would have been more specific, I assumed it was implied. Apologies.
- mrguyorama 2y ago
  > it is mostly a myth that running the AC uses a significant amount of fuel What? Modern car AC compressors use about 1 HP (.7kW) of power, with a duty cycle highly dependent on temperature but if you break the seal periodically, like by opening the window to put mail in a box, it will be running 100% of the time even on an 80 degree day. For a hatchback at 70mph that's up to 10% of your energy usage. It's much harder to quantify for stop and go traffic because you have a bimodal situation of either zero HP generation or like 50 HP to accelerate in slow city traffic, but all ICE vehicles use more energy (have less economy) in city driving than highway driving, so on average it's using a higher percentage of your energy consumption in city driving. So turning on the AC on a hot day will reduce your economy car's mileage from 33 to 30, your truck's mileage from 12 to 10.8, and your Prius from 48 to 44 and worse for city driving. The numbers they claim in the above studies suggest they are using a higher capacity compressor to deal with the air volume constantly being opened to the outside.
  - dgfitz 2y ago
    What do you mean “what?” You ignored a word: significant
wnevets 2y ago
> Oshkosh's proposed vehicle will only average 8.6 mpg (27.35 L/100 km) according to the EPA, a barely noticeable improvement on the current Grumman-made LLV trucks, which average 8.2 mpg (28.68 L/100 km). Such a wasted opportunity
- vlovich123 2y ago
  Wasted opportunity for what? > In December 2022, USPS announced that 75% of its initial order of 60,000 NGDVs would be BEVs. By 2026, all new NGDVs ordered will be delivered as BEVs. So the should be very few of these ICE variants around presumably primarily in areas where the charging capacity is impractical to install. I don’t know how 8.6 mpg fares against similar trucks to know whether better ICE alternatives were possible and hybrid would likely add significant weight, cost and maintenance for likely little comparative value.
  - MetaWhirledPeas 2y ago
    > in areas where the charging capacity is impractical Educate me: why would charging capacity be impractical anywhere? They would build and use their own chargers. Are there places that have weak grid power?
    - vlovich123 2y ago
      Chargers cost $$ to deploy and there may not be a sufficient amount of customers and trucks to warrant that money (+ may not have easy maintenance for BEVs in those places). That could be one explanation. And yes, there are probably a lot of places where the power grid wouldn't be rated to charge up truck batteries and need updates of infrastructure such as transformers to deliver that amount of electricity to the postal depot. I'm not informed on the matter but those would be my best guesses.
      - MetaWhirledPeas 2y ago
        Repairs (not maintenance per say) might be something. I'm not convinced the chargers would be a problem, considering home chargers cost a couple thousand to install. As for infrastructure: can the building run a clothes dryer? Then it can probably charge an EV. For repairs I'm sure the current LLVs have their own challenges. There's a good chance you can't find LLV parts in rural areas either. (Maybe they just swap them out and do repairs at the home base?) So EVs are not much different in that regard.
ortusdux 2y ago
Here is the original environmental impact study from USPS - https://uspsngdveis.com/documents/USPS%20NGDV%20Draft%20EIS.pdf https://uspsngdveis.com/documents/USPS%20NGDV%20Draft%20EIS.... "14.7 miles per gallon (mpg) (without air conditioning) 8.6 mpg (with air conditioning)" The same document estimates off the shelf commercial right hand drive vehicles averaging 6.3 mpg if used fleet-wide.
- jdashg 2y ago
  Same MPG but now with AC is a huge win!
  - ortusdux 2y ago
    I'd like to see the ratio of hours with AC on vs off fleet-wide after the first year. From a 2019 IEA report: "Estimates from the literature reveal that around 6% of the annual global energy consumed by cars is used for MAC(mobile air conditioning), varying by country between about 3% and 20% depending on climate, driving patterns and traffic congestion. It can peak at over 40% in warm climates and congested traffic. This equates to around 1.2 Mboe/d consumed by MAC units in cars alone, with other road vehicles adding another 0.6 Mboe/d. For electric vehicles, MAC can reduce driving range by up to 50% on hot and humid days." https://www.iea.org/reports/cooling-on-the-move https://www.iea.org/reports/cooling-on-the-move
- sofixa 2y ago
  > "14.7 miles per gallon (mpg) (without air conditioning) 8.6 mpg (with air conditioning)" Both of those are absolutely embarrassing, did they use a 1950s Soviet tank engine? According to a quick Google search, a Ford Transit (bigger sized but not optimised for post delivery van) gets 33-46 mpg depending on the engine. Yeah, a post vehicle will start/stop much more, but that's where start/stop tech, and maybe even hybrid come in.
  - adgjlsfhk1 2y ago
    An open door will kill your mileage. USPS vans are designed for an incredibly specific role.
jmclnx 2y ago
> Environmentalists were outraged when DeJoy announced that 90% of the next-gen vehicles in the first order would be gas-powered. As they should be. Most of my family are mail carriers and as a kid I rode with them a few times for the day. Electric Vehicles would have been perfect for this work, but DeJoy probably was lobbied (in Europe that is called bribed) and bowed to the fossil fuel industry. This is from someone who believes EVs are only really viable for local errand running (right now).
- ClassyJacket 2y ago
  How can you possibly believe that? The first weekend I had my model 3 I drove it across two states, since that's where I bought it. It's got every bit of utility my previous ICE car had.
- MBCook 2y ago
  Even ignoring lobbying, it's his party's (and the president at the time's) very outspoken position that EVs are some green nut's pipe dream being shoved down their throats. It likely would have been extremely bad for him personally politically to do what ended up happening on his own, as opposed to after pressure from congress and lawsuits.

by non- 2y ago

dgfitz 2y ago

I can’t quickly find the mileage with the AC not running. More to the point, it is mostly a myth that running the AC uses a significant amount of fuel. The compressor is usually driven by the serpentine belt, and adding the clutch plate for the AC into that system does not add significant drag. A little, yes.

FateOfNations 2y ago
It can have some added effects for more modern vehicles. For example, if the AC is running in my car, the engine auto start/stop is disabled.
anamexis 2y ago
I would assume it's not the clutch plate that adds significant drag, but the AC compressor itself.
- dgfitz 2y ago
  Yeah I could have phrased that better. The clutch plate engaging the compressor would have been more specific, I assumed it was implied. Apologies.
mrguyorama 2y ago
> it is mostly a myth that running the AC uses a significant amount of fuel What? Modern car AC compressors use about 1 HP (.7kW) of power, with a duty cycle highly dependent on temperature but if you break the seal periodically, like by opening the window to put mail in a box, it will be running 100% of the time even on an 80 degree day. For a hatchback at 70mph that's up to 10% of your energy usage. It's much harder to quantify for stop and go traffic because you have a bimodal situation of either zero HP generation or like 50 HP to accelerate in slow city traffic, but all ICE vehicles use more energy (have less economy) in city driving than highway driving, so on average it's using a higher percentage of your energy consumption in city driving. So turning on the AC on a hot day will reduce your economy car's mileage from 33 to 30, your truck's mileage from 12 to 10.8, and your Prius from 48 to 44 and worse for city driving. The numbers they claim in the above studies suggest they are using a higher capacity compressor to deal with the air volume constantly being opened to the outside.
- dgfitz 2y ago
  What do you mean “what?” You ignored a word: significant

wnevets 2y ago

> Oshkosh's proposed vehicle will only average 8.6 mpg (27.35 L/100 km) according to the EPA, a barely noticeable improvement on the current Grumman-made LLV trucks, which average 8.2 mpg (28.68 L/100 km). Such a wasted opportunity

vlovich123 2y ago
Wasted opportunity for what? > In December 2022, USPS announced that 75% of its initial order of 60,000 NGDVs would be BEVs. By 2026, all new NGDVs ordered will be delivered as BEVs. So the should be very few of these ICE variants around presumably primarily in areas where the charging capacity is impractical to install. I don’t know how 8.6 mpg fares against similar trucks to know whether better ICE alternatives were possible and hybrid would likely add significant weight, cost and maintenance for likely little comparative value.
- MetaWhirledPeas 2y ago
  > in areas where the charging capacity is impractical Educate me: why would charging capacity be impractical anywhere? They would build and use their own chargers. Are there places that have weak grid power?
  - vlovich123 2y ago
    Chargers cost $$ to deploy and there may not be a sufficient amount of customers and trucks to warrant that money (+ may not have easy maintenance for BEVs in those places). That could be one explanation. And yes, there are probably a lot of places where the power grid wouldn't be rated to charge up truck batteries and need updates of infrastructure such as transformers to deliver that amount of electricity to the postal depot. I'm not informed on the matter but those would be my best guesses.
    - MetaWhirledPeas 2y ago
      Repairs (not maintenance per say) might be something. I'm not convinced the chargers would be a problem, considering home chargers cost a couple thousand to install. As for infrastructure: can the building run a clothes dryer? Then it can probably charge an EV. For repairs I'm sure the current LLVs have their own challenges. There's a good chance you can't find LLV parts in rural areas either. (Maybe they just swap them out and do repairs at the home base?) So EVs are not much different in that regard.

ortusdux 2y ago

Here is the original environmental impact study from USPS - https://uspsngdveis.com/documents/USPS%20NGDV%20Draft%20EIS.pdf https://uspsngdveis.com/documents/USPS%20NGDV%20Draft%20EIS.... "14.7 miles per gallon (mpg) (without air conditioning) 8.6 mpg (with air conditioning)" The same document estimates off the shelf commercial right hand drive vehicles averaging 6.3 mpg if used fleet-wide.

jdashg 2y ago
Same MPG but now with AC is a huge win!
- ortusdux 2y ago
  I'd like to see the ratio of hours with AC on vs off fleet-wide after the first year. From a 2019 IEA report: "Estimates from the literature reveal that around 6% of the annual global energy consumed by cars is used for MAC(mobile air conditioning), varying by country between about 3% and 20% depending on climate, driving patterns and traffic congestion. It can peak at over 40% in warm climates and congested traffic. This equates to around 1.2 Mboe/d consumed by MAC units in cars alone, with other road vehicles adding another 0.6 Mboe/d. For electric vehicles, MAC can reduce driving range by up to 50% on hot and humid days." https://www.iea.org/reports/cooling-on-the-move https://www.iea.org/reports/cooling-on-the-move
sofixa 2y ago
> "14.7 miles per gallon (mpg) (without air conditioning) 8.6 mpg (with air conditioning)" Both of those are absolutely embarrassing, did they use a 1950s Soviet tank engine? According to a quick Google search, a Ford Transit (bigger sized but not optimised for post delivery van) gets 33-46 mpg depending on the engine. Yeah, a post vehicle will start/stop much more, but that's where start/stop tech, and maybe even hybrid come in.
- adgjlsfhk1 2y ago
  An open door will kill your mileage. USPS vans are designed for an incredibly specific role.

jmclnx 2y ago

> Environmentalists were outraged when DeJoy announced that 90% of the next-gen vehicles in the first order would be gas-powered. As they should be. Most of my family are mail carriers and as a kid I rode with them a few times for the day. Electric Vehicles would have been perfect for this work, but DeJoy probably was lobbied (in Europe that is called bribed) and bowed to the fossil fuel industry. This is from someone who believes EVs are only really viable for local errand running (right now).

ClassyJacket 2y ago
How can you possibly believe that? The first weekend I had my model 3 I drove it across two states, since that's where I bought it. It's got every bit of utility my previous ICE car had.
MBCook 2y ago
Even ignoring lobbying, it's his party's (and the president at the time's) very outspoken position that EVs are some green nut's pipe dream being shoved down their throats. It likely would have been extremely bad for him personally politically to do what ended up happening on his own, as opposed to after pressure from congress and lawsuits.