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> This is exactly why it seems to odd to me that many companies see management as a logical "next" step in someone's career. That's because there's a clear car

> This is exactly why it seems to odd to me that many companies see management as a logical "next" step in someone's career. That's because there's a clear career ceiling for engineering roles in those companies. They're in a mindset of let's say McDonald's management - there's no career track for cashiers, no "principal burger flipper". They see engineering similarly. It follows from there that the only way to go up is to go to the management.

amelius 2y ago
Isn't this the mindset in almost all companies? (No need to name exceptions)
- BlindEyeHalo 2y ago
  Not in software companies from what I have seen. They usually have a lot of steps after "senior developer"
  - The_Colonel 2y ago
    That's a good observation. The career ladder also scales with the size of the company. I've seen many smaller shops where the ladder ends with a "lead dev" who is also usually some kind of mixed role (not purely technically) - project/team/product lead.
  - re-thc 2y ago
    > They usually have a lot of steps after "senior developer" They're also not the same roles. Usually roles (except fake titles) above senior are a completely different beast just as well. Staff / principal replaces things like architect, system designer and other positions we had in the past.
- michaelt 2y ago
  Companies that need to keep their software developers around long-term often introduce a (notionally) parallel career track with titles like "Senior Principle SDE L8"
  - The_Colonel 2y ago
    I don't think it's just "notional". These people are usually put in technical charge of progressively bigger / more complex projects. They have a lot of clout, decision power, but not organizational/disciplinary powers, no direct reports. Alternatively, I've seen a "senior principal" dev working effectively as IC in a technically very demanding project (specialized database engine).
    - bravetraveler 2y ago
      I'm a 'principal SRE' which is a weird thing. More made up than the rest of the titles out there, at least. It exists in the void created by others, eliminating toil and such. Basically champion firefighter in addition to what you describe. Arguably the role we'd have if there were many CTOs and they were still practicing, instead of getting showtime
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Having worked in such companies, you basically end up as architect, or senior team lead, where management like tasks still take place. You end up doing less coding, more mentoring, drawing diagrams or doing requirements analysis with the team output customers.
    - afc 2y ago
      Yeah, that's exactly my experience. After switching from managing to a senior (L7) IC position at Google, most of what this article mentions continued to apply to my work.
  - re-thc 2y ago
    > Companies that need to keep their software developers around long-term I never get why companies are so fixated on salaries being tied to titles. People just do different jobs and you shouldn't need technical or people leadership to get paid more. If someone is really effective at their job they don't need to be called (or do the work of) a principal engineer. Just pay the 10x engineer 10x.
- wisty 2y ago
  Whether you're very left wing and want to lean on "elite theory" or more economically minded and want to call them "principal agent problems", it seems hard to avoid some employees having a lot of power in a larger company, and if some employees have a lot of power it's easy to see them using that power to them make their own jobs unfairly well paid.
- zug_zug 2y ago
  All companies except the most successful companies in the world maybe.
imhoguy 2y ago
It is about scaling, you either scale your work output as manager of people (Eng. Manager), or as designer of the higher abstraction (Architect). Technically you can also scale as IC by employing better tooling to make bigger impact quicker, unfortunately that rarely is encouraged in ladder-shaped companies.
- zerr 2y ago
  How about just appreciation for the continuation of a good work? Titles aside, it should be no brainer increasing the salary by 30-50% periodically without changing the type of the job. Otherwise, people will leave, continuing the same type of job they enjoy at companies which pay 30-50% more.
  - Aeolun 2y ago
    There’s zero places in the world paying 30-50% more for burger flippers though. I just don’t think it makes sense to pay more over time because if they leave it takes about 3 days to grow a rookie to roughly the same skill level.
    - zerr 2y ago
      I meant experienced engineers who just enjoy engineering.
      - chung8123 2y ago
        There is a ceiling to how much value you can add vs someone that is not getting a 30-40% bump. Your salary is going to be a formula based on the value you add to the company and their ability to find someone else to do that work for less. There are a lot of factors of course but the gist of it is if you keep doing the same work and providing the same value increasing a salary by a large percentage just doesn't make sense.
        re-thc 2y ago

amelius 2y ago

Isn't this the mindset in almost all companies? (No need to name exceptions)

BlindEyeHalo 2y ago
Not in software companies from what I have seen. They usually have a lot of steps after "senior developer"
- The_Colonel 2y ago
  That's a good observation. The career ladder also scales with the size of the company. I've seen many smaller shops where the ladder ends with a "lead dev" who is also usually some kind of mixed role (not purely technically) - project/team/product lead.
- re-thc 2y ago
  > They usually have a lot of steps after "senior developer" They're also not the same roles. Usually roles (except fake titles) above senior are a completely different beast just as well. Staff / principal replaces things like architect, system designer and other positions we had in the past.
michaelt 2y ago
Companies that need to keep their software developers around long-term often introduce a (notionally) parallel career track with titles like "Senior Principle SDE L8"
- The_Colonel 2y ago
  I don't think it's just "notional". These people are usually put in technical charge of progressively bigger / more complex projects. They have a lot of clout, decision power, but not organizational/disciplinary powers, no direct reports. Alternatively, I've seen a "senior principal" dev working effectively as IC in a technically very demanding project (specialized database engine).
  - bravetraveler 2y ago
    I'm a 'principal SRE' which is a weird thing. More made up than the rest of the titles out there, at least. It exists in the void created by others, eliminating toil and such. Basically champion firefighter in addition to what you describe. Arguably the role we'd have if there were many CTOs and they were still practicing, instead of getting showtime
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Having worked in such companies, you basically end up as architect, or senior team lead, where management like tasks still take place. You end up doing less coding, more mentoring, drawing diagrams or doing requirements analysis with the team output customers.
  - afc 2y ago
    Yeah, that's exactly my experience. After switching from managing to a senior (L7) IC position at Google, most of what this article mentions continued to apply to my work.
- re-thc 2y ago
  > Companies that need to keep their software developers around long-term I never get why companies are so fixated on salaries being tied to titles. People just do different jobs and you shouldn't need technical or people leadership to get paid more. If someone is really effective at their job they don't need to be called (or do the work of) a principal engineer. Just pay the 10x engineer 10x.
wisty 2y ago
Whether you're very left wing and want to lean on "elite theory" or more economically minded and want to call them "principal agent problems", it seems hard to avoid some employees having a lot of power in a larger company, and if some employees have a lot of power it's easy to see them using that power to them make their own jobs unfairly well paid.
zug_zug 2y ago
All companies except the most successful companies in the world maybe.

imhoguy 2y ago

It is about scaling, you either scale your work output as manager of people (Eng. Manager), or as designer of the higher abstraction (Architect). Technically you can also scale as IC by employing better tooling to make bigger impact quicker, unfortunately that rarely is encouraged in ladder-shaped companies.

zerr 2y ago
How about just appreciation for the continuation of a good work? Titles aside, it should be no brainer increasing the salary by 30-50% periodically without changing the type of the job. Otherwise, people will leave, continuing the same type of job they enjoy at companies which pay 30-50% more.
- Aeolun 2y ago
  There’s zero places in the world paying 30-50% more for burger flippers though. I just don’t think it makes sense to pay more over time because if they leave it takes about 3 days to grow a rookie to roughly the same skill level.
  - zerr 2y ago
    I meant experienced engineers who just enjoy engineering.
    - chung8123 2y ago
      There is a ceiling to how much value you can add vs someone that is not getting a 30-40% bump. Your salary is going to be a formula based on the value you add to the company and their ability to find someone else to do that work for less. There are a lot of factors of course but the gist of it is if you keep doing the same work and providing the same value increasing a salary by a large percentage just doesn't make sense.
      - re-thc 2y ago