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> I realized that although my one foot was in the new role, my other foot was still in the previous one. I needed to stop doing the old things to make room for

> I realized that although my one foot was in the new role, my other foot was still in the previous one. I needed to stop doing the old things to make room for the new stuff! This is exactly why it seems to odd to me that many companies see management as a logical "next" step in someone's career. It is a completely different path and requires very different skills. At least, the way many companies have set up their company structure.

roenxi 2y ago
Any career progression involves changes in the nature of the work. If the new job involves doing the same thing as the last job then (while it might be a great job that you want to keep forever) it isn't career progress. The reason that the progression is expected to be IC -> EM is because that is a path that leads to software people being managed by other software people. Alternate paths lead to less efficient managers because they tend to have critical knowledge gaps.
- bjornsing 2y ago
  Let me add that it’s also an incentives thing. I’ve seen software companies where management is an entirely different career path, and it makes a lot of less talented ICs focus away from the work, jockeying for a place on the management train. And why shouldn’t they? So if you want junior engineers to really try to learn and contribute don’t tell them “well, if you really suck as an IC and focus on socializing you can be the boss of everyone here”. It’s pretty self explanatory actually.
- supersahne 2y ago
  Totally agree! Especially the second point. Often on HN or reddit people complain that their managers are "only managers" without engineering experience and thus are incapable of understanding the various technical requirements needed for the project.
- creesch 2y ago
  To be clear, I am not arguing there shouldn't be any changes. But when it involves effectively an entirely different skill set I strongly believe that something is not quite right. Do note that I specifically said many companies, not all companies. I think there certainly is room for software people being managed by other software people. If this is done in ways where the managing people also do keep being involved in the actual work in order to keep their skills and, more importantly maybe, their perspective up to date with what is happening. I see too many companies where this is not the case and I see ex-software people giving justifications based on skills and insights that have very little relevance with the current situation on the floor.
  - roenxi 2y ago
    It involves a similar skillset. Especially if you see soft skills as something an IC should be capable of then you should basically have everything you need to be dumped into an EM role as an IC. If you don't the overlap is still quite substantial. And the companies of the world generally agree with the view that similar skillsets apply - that is why they keep promoting software engineers to be engineering managers. If the skills were different they'd promote more socially savvy individuals than you generally find in engineering. For an IC the application of those skills will be quite novel. But that is what career progression is. Same skills, new puzzle.
wodenokoto 2y ago
Companies that see it this way, at least acknowledge that a good manager tends to understand the problem and ways of working of the people they manage.
The_Colonel 2y ago
> This is exactly why it seems to odd to me that many companies see management as a logical "next" step in someone's career. That's because there's a clear career ceiling for engineering roles in those companies. They're in a mindset of let's say McDonald's management - there's no career track for cashiers, no "principal burger flipper". They see engineering similarly. It follows from there that the only way to go up is to go to the management.
- amelius 2y ago
  Isn't this the mindset in almost all companies? (No need to name exceptions)
  - BlindEyeHalo 2y ago
    Not in software companies from what I have seen. They usually have a lot of steps after "senior developer"
    - The_Colonel 2y ago
      That's a good observation. The career ladder also scales with the size of the company. I've seen many smaller shops where the ladder ends with a "lead dev" who is also usually some kind of mixed role (not purely technically) - project/team/product lead.
    - re-thc 2y ago
      > They usually have a lot of steps after "senior developer" They're also not the same roles. Usually roles (except fake titles) above senior are a completely different beast just as well. Staff / principal replaces things like architect, system designer and other positions we had in the past.
  - michaelt 2y ago
    Companies that need to keep their software developers around long-term often introduce a (notionally) parallel career track with titles like "Senior Principle SDE L8"
KineticLensman 2y ago
> it seems to odd to me that many companies see management as a logical "next" step in someone's career I was lucky enough to work at a company where one logical next step was to move into technical consultancy with companies, so rather than managing a project, you became the technical interface between the customer and the project. At best, this could involve conducting or facilitating some really fascinating collaboration both with the customer and the supporting devs. It sometimes also involved myself and the PM doing a good-cop-bad-cop routine with the customers, which could be 'interesting'.
TomMasz 2y ago
I worked for exactly one company in 35+ years that had a career track for senior engineers as an alternative to management. I would have taken that instead of going into management but I had long ago left that company.

roenxi 2y ago

Any career progression involves changes in the nature of the work. If the new job involves doing the same thing as the last job then (while it might be a great job that you want to keep forever) it isn't career progress. The reason that the progression is expected to be IC -> EM is because that is a path that leads to software people being managed by other software people. Alternate paths lead to less efficient managers because they tend to have critical knowledge gaps.

bjornsing 2y ago
Let me add that it’s also an incentives thing. I’ve seen software companies where management is an entirely different career path, and it makes a lot of less talented ICs focus away from the work, jockeying for a place on the management train. And why shouldn’t they? So if you want junior engineers to really try to learn and contribute don’t tell them “well, if you really suck as an IC and focus on socializing you can be the boss of everyone here”. It’s pretty self explanatory actually.
supersahne 2y ago
Totally agree! Especially the second point. Often on HN or reddit people complain that their managers are "only managers" without engineering experience and thus are incapable of understanding the various technical requirements needed for the project.
creesch 2y ago
To be clear, I am not arguing there shouldn't be any changes. But when it involves effectively an entirely different skill set I strongly believe that something is not quite right. Do note that I specifically said many companies, not all companies. I think there certainly is room for software people being managed by other software people. If this is done in ways where the managing people also do keep being involved in the actual work in order to keep their skills and, more importantly maybe, their perspective up to date with what is happening. I see too many companies where this is not the case and I see ex-software people giving justifications based on skills and insights that have very little relevance with the current situation on the floor.
- roenxi 2y ago
  It involves a similar skillset. Especially if you see soft skills as something an IC should be capable of then you should basically have everything you need to be dumped into an EM role as an IC. If you don't the overlap is still quite substantial. And the companies of the world generally agree with the view that similar skillsets apply - that is why they keep promoting software engineers to be engineering managers. If the skills were different they'd promote more socially savvy individuals than you generally find in engineering. For an IC the application of those skills will be quite novel. But that is what career progression is. Same skills, new puzzle.

wodenokoto 2y ago

Companies that see it this way, at least acknowledge that a good manager tends to understand the problem and ways of working of the people they manage.

The_Colonel 2y ago

> This is exactly why it seems to odd to me that many companies see management as a logical "next" step in someone's career. That's because there's a clear career ceiling for engineering roles in those companies. They're in a mindset of let's say McDonald's management - there's no career track for cashiers, no "principal burger flipper". They see engineering similarly. It follows from there that the only way to go up is to go to the management.

amelius 2y ago
Isn't this the mindset in almost all companies? (No need to name exceptions)
- BlindEyeHalo 2y ago
  Not in software companies from what I have seen. They usually have a lot of steps after "senior developer"
  - The_Colonel 2y ago
    That's a good observation. The career ladder also scales with the size of the company. I've seen many smaller shops where the ladder ends with a "lead dev" who is also usually some kind of mixed role (not purely technically) - project/team/product lead.
  - re-thc 2y ago
    > They usually have a lot of steps after "senior developer" They're also not the same roles. Usually roles (except fake titles) above senior are a completely different beast just as well. Staff / principal replaces things like architect, system designer and other positions we had in the past.
- michaelt 2y ago
  Companies that need to keep their software developers around long-term often introduce a (notionally) parallel career track with titles like "Senior Principle SDE L8"

KineticLensman 2y ago

> it seems to odd to me that many companies see management as a logical "next" step in someone's career I was lucky enough to work at a company where one logical next step was to move into technical consultancy with companies, so rather than managing a project, you became the technical interface between the customer and the project. At best, this could involve conducting or facilitating some really fascinating collaboration both with the customer and the supporting devs. It sometimes also involved myself and the PM doing a good-cop-bad-cop routine with the customers, which could be 'interesting'.

TomMasz 2y ago

I worked for exactly one company in 35+ years that had a career track for senior engineers as an alternative to management. I would have taken that instead of going into management but I had long ago left that company.