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Unfortunate. Luckily, Windows itself can be removed. It's incredible how much Microsoft is resting on their laurels in terms of seeing Windows as insurmountabl

Unfortunate. Luckily, Windows itself can be removed. It's incredible how much Microsoft is resting on their laurels in terms of seeing Windows as insurmountable and so consumers must take whatever Microsoft decide to dish out. I would have been totally resigned to this fact a decade ago, but middle-school+ kids these days don't use Windows - they use Chromebooks. A huge minority of them use iPhones. Familiarity with Windows systems isn't a given anymore in the university courses my friends teach. When these kids grow up and get to make procurement decisions, are they going to be as tolerant as today's staff of whatever overreach Microsoft is going to try with Windows in the future, or are they - and their peers - going to be much more accepting of non-Windows solutions? I think they'll be much more accepting, especially given how much is done in a browser today anyway. MS will obviously survive, and Windows will of course remain dominant for the foreseeable future but I can't help but feel that if/when the tipping point for the end of Windows' dominance comes, it will all be seen retrospectively as so preventable, because it is.

webworker 2y ago
As if any chrome product doesn't have telemetry, tracking and AI features built into it. I don't advocate for any of this stuff, but I guess it's only bad when Windows does all the same stuff, but not ChromeOS. As for Apple, at least they make an attempt.
waihtis 2y ago
I was inclined to disagree with you initially since groupthink is the default corporate mode, and I don't see free thinkers doing well in these environments - but then reflected on my own stance on MS and the reason I don't absolutely shun them is because of childhood nostalgia. Maybe you're on to something. I just wish they'd replace it with Linux.
surfingdino 2y ago
That's why they are on the offensive selling Windows and Office 365 to governments and large corporations.
leptons 2y ago
Microsoft is in the process of jumping the shark. I'm sure it could be argued that Windows Vista was when they jumped the shark, or a dozen other times in the past. But it's Windows 11 or whatever they are cooking up right now that has them jumping the shark. I'm a die-hard Windows fan. After the Amiga was discontinued, I went to Windows and dug in. Now I'm moving to Linux. All of my many computers and even more virtual machines are migrating from various versions of Windows over to Mint Linux. I've been developing software that runs on Linux for a while, so I'm familiar with it but haven't used it as my main OS yet. Windows is going to end up as a front-end for Microsoft AI, which will likely be something like Clippy but with its own opinions and it will automagically try to do stuff for you that you don't want or need it to do. I can see this going wrong in so many ways. "I reorganized all your files for you!"
- Log_out_ 2y ago
  Windows ai is mostly a union breaker for office jockeys. "You already trained yiur successor" is a great start for negotiating a seties of downrounds.
- JohnFen 2y ago
  > I'm sure it could be argued that Windows Vista was when they jumped the shark I'd argue that they jumped the shark with Win8. It's been one step forward, two steps back ever since.
tbrownaw 2y ago
Using Chromebooks and iPhones is supposed to make people less tolerant of vendor overreach?? . The big shortcoming that windows had was fixed with powershell and windows terminal. Now it's just got mildly annoying UI defaults. The big things it has are: * Outlook and the rest of Office * Visual Studio * Active Directory * Tons and tons of industry-specific applications
- nolist_policy 2y ago
  At least they won't get owned by ransomware with a Chromebook and iPhone.
  - whyoh 2y ago
    The ability to freely run software has its risks, no doubt. But switching to what are effectively terminals centrally managed by big corporations sounds quite dystopian to me.
  - ffsm8 2y ago
    They actually do, surprisingly. Lots of people got tricked on their iPhones after installing ransomware apps on them from the app store. They couldn't figure out how to exit the app (you had to open the shutdown dialog via long press on power) and went on to pay after getting a scary warning/full screen hijack Been a while since I read about this though, not sure how frequently it happens currently
- cmcaleer 2y ago
  I didn't say that the alternatives didn't have their own issues with vendor overreach, it's that the reaction you can imagine from staff in an average organisation now if you said "We're moving from Windows to [some other OS]" today is almost certainly going to be very different from the same announcement to an average organisation 20 years in the future. Agree that Windows has a massive lead.
heavyset_go 2y ago
> When these kids grow up and get to make procurement decisions, are they going to be as tolerant as today's staff of whatever overreach Microsoft is going to try with Windows in the future, or are they - and their peers - going to be much more accepting of non-Windows solutions? Management will make those decisions and choose Windows because of the surveillance features built into it.
euroderf 2y ago
Windows+Micro$oft still seems to be the default for big installations, like tens of machines on a LAN needing centralized authentication. What is the state of Mac/Apple for this ? Can it be done ? Can MS be banished from the premises, perhaps traded for a Linux server here & there ?
- cynicalsecurity 2y ago
  Just put your question into ChatGPT and you'll receive a great answer. People are still using Windows simply because they are used to working with shit.
  - euroderf 2y ago
    Wow. I pasted my question into the free Claude, and it spit out a long answer but then wiped it and told me that it had hit constraints and I should upgrade to Pro. WTH. Phooey.
- nolist_policy 2y ago
  I don't know about Apple. But Chromebooks have this central authentication and management. But really, 90% of companies don't need central authentication/Active Directory at all. They just do it because everyone else does it like that. Most admins don't know how to manage AD properly and how to nail everything down so you don't get owned.
- newdee 2y ago
  Macs work well in enterprise and get better with each major release. If you’re referring to a completely air gapped lab environment, then not so much; most of the management functions are designed around having outbound internet access.
- 486sx33 2y ago
  I think Mac’s would be totally fine, albeit a higher hardware cost. You might actually find Mac’s to be better. My macOS machines have far better (continuous) uptime than windows. I’d say there is a stigma around Linux in North America, if I went into a shop and every machine was running Linux I’d either think they are dirt poor or some kind of underground Russian secret service operation. It just isn’t seen.
sweeter 2y ago
I'd say yes. Especially since cross platform support is becoming more of an expectation and the tooling is starting to enable that out of the box. It's definitely something I consider when picking a language and a framework. That's genuinely one of the biggest hurdles here, software availability. Picking Linux, Mac, Android and Chrome is getting a lot more common
thefz 2y ago
Well, advising for Apple against vendor overreach is downright comical. And the consumer space is not where Windows shines, but rather in the enterprise, where services and features are vertically integrated.
wkat4242 2y ago
> It's incredible how much Microsoft is resting on their laurels in terms of seeing Windows as insurmountable and so consumers must take whatever Microsoft decide to dish out. Well no, they actually believe people want this. Microsoft strongly believe in "Data Driven Everything". Of course here in Europe we look very different at this due to privacy concerns. But trying to explain that to the MS consultants I work with is difficult. They're very much part of the cult of telemetry on everything and AI as the cherry on top. They view deep analysis and reporting as their added value. Like those stupid office insight emails that tell you you didn't have enough speaking time in meetings or that you need to use @mention in teams more. They actually think companies and employees value that shit. I've challenged them on this several times saying if they think people love it so much, why do you make it so hard to turn off? But they think it's just a matter of 'adoption' and users will love it once they get to know it. Their 'adoption' strategy is mainly marketing evangelisation crap that we're supposed to send out to the users. I find it very weird to see how so many people can be so out of touch with reality. But I guess in the US they look at privacy very differently.
- lupusreal 2y ago
  People want Microsoft Word but that can be uninstalled. In fact they generally make you pay for it. If people wanted Recall, Microsoft would be making people buy it, not trying to force people to have it.
- yoyohello13 2y ago
  I also find it funny (in a sad way) how Microsoft pushes telemetry so hard. Yet they have the buggiest most unusable software. All that data clearly isn't making their products better.
  - reginald78 2y ago
    They use it to identify software you still use so they can use it as an insertion point of whatever new crap they're trying to push.

webworker 2y ago

As if any chrome product doesn't have telemetry, tracking and AI features built into it. I don't advocate for any of this stuff, but I guess it's only bad when Windows does all the same stuff, but not ChromeOS. As for Apple, at least they make an attempt.

waihtis 2y ago

I was inclined to disagree with you initially since groupthink is the default corporate mode, and I don't see free thinkers doing well in these environments - but then reflected on my own stance on MS and the reason I don't absolutely shun them is because of childhood nostalgia. Maybe you're on to something. I just wish they'd replace it with Linux.

surfingdino 2y ago

That's why they are on the offensive selling Windows and Office 365 to governments and large corporations.

leptons 2y ago

Microsoft is in the process of jumping the shark. I'm sure it could be argued that Windows Vista was when they jumped the shark, or a dozen other times in the past. But it's Windows 11 or whatever they are cooking up right now that has them jumping the shark. I'm a die-hard Windows fan. After the Amiga was discontinued, I went to Windows and dug in. Now I'm moving to Linux. All of my many computers and even more virtual machines are migrating from various versions of Windows over to Mint Linux. I've been developing software that runs on Linux for a while, so I'm familiar with it but haven't used it as my main OS yet. Windows is going to end up as a front-end for Microsoft AI, which will likely be something like Clippy but with its own opinions and it will automagically try to do stuff for you that you don't want or need it to do. I can see this going wrong in so many ways. "I reorganized all your files for you!"

Log_out_ 2y ago
Windows ai is mostly a union breaker for office jockeys. "You already trained yiur successor" is a great start for negotiating a seties of downrounds.
JohnFen 2y ago
> I'm sure it could be argued that Windows Vista was when they jumped the shark I'd argue that they jumped the shark with Win8. It's been one step forward, two steps back ever since.

tbrownaw 2y ago

Using Chromebooks and iPhones is supposed to make people less tolerant of vendor overreach?? . The big shortcoming that windows had was fixed with powershell and windows terminal. Now it's just got mildly annoying UI defaults. The big things it has are: * Outlook and the rest of Office * Visual Studio * Active Directory * Tons and tons of industry-specific applications

nolist_policy 2y ago
At least they won't get owned by ransomware with a Chromebook and iPhone.
- whyoh 2y ago
  The ability to freely run software has its risks, no doubt. But switching to what are effectively terminals centrally managed by big corporations sounds quite dystopian to me.
- ffsm8 2y ago
  They actually do, surprisingly. Lots of people got tricked on their iPhones after installing ransomware apps on them from the app store. They couldn't figure out how to exit the app (you had to open the shutdown dialog via long press on power) and went on to pay after getting a scary warning/full screen hijack Been a while since I read about this though, not sure how frequently it happens currently
cmcaleer 2y ago
I didn't say that the alternatives didn't have their own issues with vendor overreach, it's that the reaction you can imagine from staff in an average organisation now if you said "We're moving from Windows to [some other OS]" today is almost certainly going to be very different from the same announcement to an average organisation 20 years in the future. Agree that Windows has a massive lead.

heavyset_go 2y ago

> When these kids grow up and get to make procurement decisions, are they going to be as tolerant as today's staff of whatever overreach Microsoft is going to try with Windows in the future, or are they - and their peers - going to be much more accepting of non-Windows solutions? Management will make those decisions and choose Windows because of the surveillance features built into it.

euroderf 2y ago

Windows+Micro$oft still seems to be the default for big installations, like tens of machines on a LAN needing centralized authentication. What is the state of Mac/Apple for this ? Can it be done ? Can MS be banished from the premises, perhaps traded for a Linux server here & there ?

cynicalsecurity 2y ago
Just put your question into ChatGPT and you'll receive a great answer. People are still using Windows simply because they are used to working with shit.
- euroderf 2y ago
  Wow. I pasted my question into the free Claude, and it spit out a long answer but then wiped it and told me that it had hit constraints and I should upgrade to Pro. WTH. Phooey.
nolist_policy 2y ago
I don't know about Apple. But Chromebooks have this central authentication and management. But really, 90% of companies don't need central authentication/Active Directory at all. They just do it because everyone else does it like that. Most admins don't know how to manage AD properly and how to nail everything down so you don't get owned.
newdee 2y ago
Macs work well in enterprise and get better with each major release. If you’re referring to a completely air gapped lab environment, then not so much; most of the management functions are designed around having outbound internet access.
486sx33 2y ago
I think Mac’s would be totally fine, albeit a higher hardware cost. You might actually find Mac’s to be better. My macOS machines have far better (continuous) uptime than windows. I’d say there is a stigma around Linux in North America, if I went into a shop and every machine was running Linux I’d either think they are dirt poor or some kind of underground Russian secret service operation. It just isn’t seen.

sweeter 2y ago

I'd say yes. Especially since cross platform support is becoming more of an expectation and the tooling is starting to enable that out of the box. It's definitely something I consider when picking a language and a framework. That's genuinely one of the biggest hurdles here, software availability. Picking Linux, Mac, Android and Chrome is getting a lot more common

thefz 2y ago

Well, advising for Apple against vendor overreach is downright comical. And the consumer space is not where Windows shines, but rather in the enterprise, where services and features are vertically integrated.

wkat4242 2y ago

> It's incredible how much Microsoft is resting on their laurels in terms of seeing Windows as insurmountable and so consumers must take whatever Microsoft decide to dish out. Well no, they actually believe people want this. Microsoft strongly believe in "Data Driven Everything". Of course here in Europe we look very different at this due to privacy concerns. But trying to explain that to the MS consultants I work with is difficult. They're very much part of the cult of telemetry on everything and AI as the cherry on top. They view deep analysis and reporting as their added value. Like those stupid office insight emails that tell you you didn't have enough speaking time in meetings or that you need to use @mention in teams more. They actually think companies and employees value that shit. I've challenged them on this several times saying if they think people love it so much, why do you make it so hard to turn off? But they think it's just a matter of 'adoption' and users will love it once they get to know it. Their 'adoption' strategy is mainly marketing evangelisation crap that we're supposed to send out to the users. I find it very weird to see how so many people can be so out of touch with reality. But I guess in the US they look at privacy very differently.

lupusreal 2y ago
People want Microsoft Word but that can be uninstalled. In fact they generally make you pay for it. If people wanted Recall, Microsoft would be making people buy it, not trying to force people to have it.
yoyohello13 2y ago
I also find it funny (in a sad way) how Microsoft pushes telemetry so hard. Yet they have the buggiest most unusable software. All that data clearly isn't making their products better.
- reginald78 2y ago
  They use it to identify software you still use so they can use it as an insertion point of whatever new crap they're trying to push.