6 ms·

Hawai'i-Issued Real IDs Can Be Added to Apple Wallet Beginning August 28

63 points by srockets 2y ago

nickzelei 2y ago
Great to see this starting to spread. I don't live in Hawaii, but I am envious of those that live there that can now use this feature. I live in California and have been wanting this for a while now. I just recently found out that California has a limited public rollout from last year [1], but it does _not_ have Apple Wallet support, yet anyways. Nice job Hawaii! [1]: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/ca-dmv-wallet/ https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/ca-dmv-wallet/
- jer0me 2y ago
  They just launched Google Wallet support and people have found marketing pages for an imminent Apple Wallet launch.
- rookie 2y ago
  Driver’s licenses and state IDs in Apple Wallet are coming soon to California https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2024/08/drivers-licenses-and-state-ids-in-apple-wallet-are-coming-soon-to-california/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2024/08/drivers-licenses-and-...
- kstrauser 2y ago
  Also Californian, and I envy Hawaii this. I've had the CA DMV Wallet app installed since its launch. Every single time I open it, 1. It tells me I need to refresh my license. I click the button. 2. It tells me I need to log into the DMV website. I grit my teeth and log in. 3. It tells me my password has expired and I need to update it because no one there has read the NIST guidelines. I snarl and update it. 4. I get an error message that the system is temporarily unavailable or something and my password can't be updated, so I can't log in, so I can't refresh my ID, so I can't use the app at all. At this point I only keep testing it out of sheer bullheadedness and a high pain tolerance.
  - curioussavage 2y ago
    Same here in Utah. We had crazies screaming about mark of the beast when digital ID first came up. They finally started it and it’s only through some garbage app. Probably someone connected or whatever.
    - kstrauser 2y ago
      I grew up in another state with a large population of religiously conservative residents. When Amazon emailed me an ad for their new Amazon One service[0] that lets you literally buy things with a palm scan, I was able to correctly name the people I knew who'd lose their freaking mind about it. I'm convinced that they didn't include one single evangelical in their focus group, or that they ignored the feedback. [0]https://one.amazon.com https://one.amazon.com
  - cge 2y ago
    That doesn't appear to be specific to the app. I also have the same thing happen on the website itself, on a desktop. It's not clear that logging in to the DMV is possible at all if your password is expired. Why so many government services in the US have such an obsession with scheduled periodic password resets, which the government's own standards body recommends against, is baffling.
    - kstrauser 2y ago
      Yeah, I just tried and confirmed that I still can't update my password on my desktop since I last tried on my phone this morning. It's just made that much harder to try on a phone. I have no idea. OK, I lied. I have some idea. At a previous job I had a meeting with an enterprise customer who was auditing our security controls. Part of the conversation went a lot like this: Them: How often do you require your employees to change their passwords? Me: We don't. Them: Hehe, you'll have to start doing that! Me: We comply with NIST 800-63B section 5.1.1.2 that says not to do that unless you suspect a password's been compromised. Them: Uh, what? Can you send me a link? Me: You bet! My boss, to me in Slack: OMFG did that really just happen? Yes, I did have (and do have) that exact citation memorized because it came up often enough that it was handy to bust that out. "Do you rotate..." "NIST!" "...once every 90..." "SP 800-63B!" "...days?" "5 dot 1 dot 1 dot 2!"
jagged-chisel 2y ago
I was surprised to get an alert months ago that Georgia was participating. Added my driving license to Apple Wallet … and had zero opportunity to use it from there.
- nirav72 2y ago
  It doesn't work well with TSA. It's hit or miss. At Hartsfield at least, half the times the reader comes back with an error. So the TSA person will ask me to show my physical ID. Initially I thought it was my phone, which is an old Iphone XS. Then I tried it my work phone which is a iphone 14. Same issue.
IncreasePosts 2y ago
You can also currently add your ID into Google Wallet if you live in: AZ, CA, CO, GA, or MD
samoyy 2y ago
"(include link to how to video here)"
modeless 2y ago
California licenses launched in Google Wallet just recently. I added mine last week. The thing I found interesting is that the instructions emphasized that you are not supposed to have to hand your phone to anyone. The license is checked wirelessly via Bluetooth. I'm certain people checking digital IDs are going to ask for your phone anyway though...
- vlovich123 2y ago
  The hope when I was on the standard body was that norms would shift as technology enabled it to be shifted. That’s also the reason the ID can contain multiple records that attest various proofs while preserving privacy (eg a store age check for restricted items or bar age check wouldn’t get anything other than your photo and a statement that you’re over a certain age without revealing your name, birthday, etc)
  - klabb3 2y ago
    In a physical context this needs a photo to be included in the proof too, right? So the instructions for the verifier includes matching the face with the actual person.
    - vlovich123 2y ago
      Yes but it depends (eg in some cases you might have an automated machine do the face verification)
  - modeless 2y ago
    I'm glad that the instructions make a big deal about it. Hopefully the systems that scan the IDs also instruct the users not to ask for the phones.
  - mazsa 2y ago
    https://github.com/microsoft/uprove-node-reference/blob/main/doc/U-Prove%20Technology%20Overview%20V1.1%20Revision%203.pdf https://github.com/microsoft/uprove-node-reference/blob/main...
imroot 2y ago
Kentucky was in the launch release from apple[0], but, still have no formal plans on when they're launching the ability to do so. -- 0: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/09/apple-announces-first-states-to-adopt-drivers-licenses-and-state-ids-in-wallet/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/09/apple-announces-first...
urbandw311er 2y ago
Great - even more critical things to not have access to when my battery dies!
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- vehemenz 2y ago
  I mean, as it stands a physical ID is one more critical thing besides your phone that you have to bring to the store.
hnpolicestate 2y ago
Can someone tell me why Apple and Google would want to provide this feature to people? How do they benefit?
- tyre 2y ago
  Building things people want? For Apple it all contributes to selling hardware. For google, they make money from phone manufacturers installing the google suite by default (afaik), usage of Google, and data collected.
- croddin 2y ago
  It gets people to not need to carry their wallet anymore so they will use apple/google pay instead of physical cards.
- vel0city 2y ago
  Further adoption of just using your phone in replacement of your whole wallet. Right now when I need to carry my ID I still just end up carrying my wallet. The wallet full of cards not tied to Google Wallet. When I buy things with the Google Wallet tap to pay I imagine they're getting some amount of metadata about that transaction. Also, its yet another feature for Google to have over Apple, or vice-versa. If one side gets it, the other will probably want to match the feature.
- eblume 2y ago
  I'm afraid it's staring right at you, in the name of the app: "Wallet". They want to replace your wallet. It's not enough for them to be in every person's pocket; they need the rest of the pockets to be empty, as well. I'm being hyperbolic, but I worry _not by much_.
  - hnpolicestate 2y ago
    I think I agree with your comment the most, even though other comments did provide useful information. I still think too many people suffer from the "Google, Apple, etc" want to do this because they are altruistic. The only digital ID, wallet, etc I would want to use would be open source and non proprietary. Someone more intelligent than I could describe it more technically but I'm talking about a digital wallet that's the equivalent of SMS or ethernet. Like a technical standard, not a corporate product.
vxxzy 2y ago
Have this in Maryland. Local sheriff’s office won’t accept it. Bars and Restaurants won’t accept it either. Is this common in other states?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
throwaway240829 2y ago
> ... digital driver's licenses and state identification cards are currently accepted at ... Apple Stores in the U.S. and in select apps that require identity or age verification. Delightful. It's only a few years until anonymity on the internet will be a thing of the past. Every account will be tied to your government issued ID card. In the mean time, enjoy the novelty of using bluetooth to prove your age to the bartender.
- williamcotton 2y ago
  Anonymity isn't going anywhere, nor should it be banned. Some of us, myself included, would prefer communicating with people who use their own identity so they can be held accountable for their actions.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - deadlydose 2y ago
    That's exactly how Google finally cleaned up YouTube comments! /s
  - lxgr 2y ago
    I think that would have a pretty concerning chilling effect in many public forums. Not everything needs to be on the public record permanently; among other problems, it makes it that much harder for people to walk themselves back from a previous extreme position as they grow up, make new experiences etc. Of course it depends on the use case, but for some, pseudonyms are really great. It's working pretty well over here, for example!
    - williamcotton 2y ago
      Sure, and I have pseudonyms in some forums and I would prefer to continue to use those. That doesn't mean there can't be optional forums or messaging platforms where everyone is required to have state-issued IDs. We're pretty close to a world where anonymous forums are going to be overrun with LLMs that are somewhat indistinguishable from real people. In addition, the main True Identity (TM) platforms are Facebook and Twitter, private companies in a privileged position regarding identity verification. I'd much rather have a public institution issuing PKI enabled ID cards and having individual states operating as certificate authorities with DMVs being the gatekeepers.
marssaxman 2y ago
Of course I will never want to do this, but I wonder how many years it will take before people start trying to make me.
- itake 2y ago
  I've lost my wallet more times than I've lost my phone. Sign me up!
  - marssaxman 2y ago
    That's great - if it feels like a valuable service to you, then have at it! I'm not against the option; I'm just feeling really uncomfortable with the proliferation of "no cash accepted" signs I've been seeing lately, and it's easy to imagine the same situation developing with regard to the rest of one's wallet. "Pick which of these two giant corporations gets to control your proof of identity" is not a future I want to live in; I hope there's a way to avoid that.
breck 2y ago
I live in Hawai'i and have a Hawai'i driver's license. I don't own a phone, so this isn't relevant to me, but think it's cool, and happy for those who want it. Also, for other HN readers from Hawai'i, check out the first ever Honolulu Tech Week happening next month: https://www.honolulutechweek.com/ https://www.honolulutechweek.com/
- alexchantavy 2y ago
  Thanks for sharing, this makes me happy as someone from there
  - breck 2y ago
    aloha!
swozey 2y ago
I do some bartending and I'm really curious whats going to happen with digital wallets, on the ID and payment end. I think they're amazing and would love to not worry about losing plastic but we aren't there yet. Lots of POS systems need to be upgraded and that is not something bars are looking to spend money on. I have 21yos come in all the time nowadays without a wallet/license/debit cards expecting to use digitalID and ApplePay for literally everything in their lives. We reluctantly take Apple Pay now, the reluctance is it's not like opening a normal tab. The card number is rolling so you have to give give me a card first to even open a tab or else I have to trust you're "Jon at Seat 3 Who Will Pay Me Later", because I can't ring you out without grabbing your phone and shoving it at my POS right when you're paying out. Also I have to have you unlock your phone and bring it over to my POS and hope it doesn't lock by the time I scan it. And if its busy and you want to Apple Pay you're a nightmare. I flew to Vegas last year with only a digital ID and paper temp, lost mine right before flight. I actually don't think I had any problems other than being brought aside to be searched at each airport since I was an "Exception" with my temp license but I know places for sure won't accept a digital ID yet for drinks. Retail and a lot of places just aren't there with the tech yet. Also.. will there really be an era where nobody can use fake IDs? They're kinda fun to catch..
- kstrauser 2y ago
  Regarding running a tab: When I use Apple Pay at a gas pump, it first creates a temporary charge for more than I'm likely to spend. When I'm done pumping, it charges the actual amount and removes the reservation. I wonder if a bar tab could eventually work like that, where you temporarily hold $50 or whatever and then reconcile it when I close my tab. As a bonus, you'd never have someone forget and leave there credit card there again.
- ghaff 2y ago
  A few years ago (pre-COVID) I somehow lost my license between the car and the airport door. To my complete amazement wasn't a particular issue with TSA. WAS an issue checking into a Travelodge of all places and only made it work by paying cash.
- sunshowers 2y ago
cpfohl 2y ago
> Digital driver’s licenses cannot be used as proof of name and address to fulfill the lawful order of a police officer. This drives me nuts…a police officer can look up my license if I offer my name and address. Why do I need to carry an easily lost piece of plastic and paper to prove I’m me? It’s harder to forge a record on the DMV db than my license… This is a genuine question, if anyone knows the reasoning behind this I’d be thrilled.
- kstrauser 2y ago
  Your average person couldn't forge either one. The CA license has a lot of anti-forgery features that I'm sure could be worked around, but not by anyone who isn't premeditating a whole lot of crime. I can understand a reasonable wish from police departments to verify someone's identity even if they're in a place with bad cell coverage, or during a thunderstorm, or when the radio's busted. An ID card is pretty strong evidence of your real ID that doesn't require power or a radio connection or a computer. A cop can just look at it and say, no, that's clearly your older brother.
  - hnpolicestate 2y ago
    The world changed so fast. It was the norm when I went to college in the mid 00's to forge your birthday on your drivers license to get into bars. Kids will have a less interesting and unpredictable future I fear.
    - kstrauser 2y ago
      I would never have done that! Having spent a lot of time around today's kids, particularly the ones who grew up in my house, I have the utmost faith in their ability to create new kinds of mischief. They'll be alright.
    - jrockway 2y ago
      I would think "replay attack" works in a lot of cases now. Find someone over 21, get their barcode on the back of the license, sticker that over yours. For bars that just scan and get yes/no, you're in. No need to modify the face of the license, which nobody but the TSA seems to look at. (I buy sudafed every month... the pharmacy never checks that I look like the ID; just that the barcode scans.) A place I used to work had 3D badges, so that your face kind of appeared to be sticking out as you inspected the badges. (Lenticular lenses.) I thought this was a neat security feature, so I color printed a copy of my badge and just put it in my badge holder in front of the actual badge to see if anyone would notice mine wasn't 3D. They did not notice, never in 5 years.
rootusrootus 2y ago
Oregon doesn't even have this on the radar anywhere, and I'm kinda bummed. Probably still carry my wallet with me for the indefinite future, but having an alternate option would be nice. I'd be up for a mobile passport, too. Already has a chip anyway that gets read, so what's the difference? And on the plus side that would be something you wouldn't accidentally forget in the hotel safe. What I'd want to establish, however, is what the backup plan looks like if your phone gets lost/stolen/destroyed. How quickly can I bet up and running on a replacement device, and what hoops will I have to jump through to get it working again?
- ghaff 2y ago
  I expect that, if this becomes the norm, you're basically in a world of hurt if your phone gets stolen, lost, broken, etc. Bad things obviously can already happen if your backpack gets lifted etc. But I'm personally already very nervous about tying everything to my phone. I do still carry a wallet, albeit a small front-pocket one with just a little cash and some important cards. But, then, I don't really like not to have a paper map of some sort when hiking in unfamiliar locations either.
perihelions 2y ago
I think this is disturbing and should be made illegal—to tie a government service to a single corporate provider in this way. I don't care how much money Apple paid to develop this, or how convenient they made it for the state of Hawaii to adopt their ready-made product, or how inconvenient it would be to a do this in an platform-agnostic way equitable to all of their residents. This is simply a monopolistic abuse of government services, and of the public. Any such service should be free and open to many providers, or not available at all. No fast-lanes for Apple customers. This is not how a fair, equitable public service should work. - "Requires iPhone 8 or later with iOS 16.5 or later, Apple Watch Series 4 or later with WatchOS 9.5 or later" (hidot.hawaii.gov) (I've browsed around this website and there doesn't appear to be any other option equivalent to this one).
- kstrauser 2y ago
  The search term you're googling for is "ISO/IEC 18013-5", which explains how Apple, Google, and anyone else who wants to implement the standard can do this. Of course, then you'd need to go through a fairly massive audit for the local government to trust that you're not going to immediately upload all your users' PII to the dark web. I'd be shocked if Apple and Google weren't the first ones to successfully complete that part.
- lurking_swe 2y ago
  I agree with the sentiment. However i’m not too concerned about this specific situation because at least apple seems to have gone about it in a reasonable way. They are forcing each state to build an integration, own the infrastructure, database, and code. Apple is also using a known standard. Using a standard is a good thing, and i’m glad that the state is not beholden to apple to run a core government service. I’m glad apple didn’t push some proprietary BS and try to lock the state into their custom solution. https://www.macrumors.com/2021/11/15/apple-strict-terms-on-us-states-digital-ids/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/11/15/apple-strict-terms-on-u... the article uses emotionally charged language like “charges footed to the taxpayer”, but IMO that’s a good thing. It benefits tax payers.
  - Spooky23 2y ago
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
I am very skeptical of digital IDs and digitization in general. I have a feeling it will lead to violation of privacy and an increase in government surveillance and control. Why do people welcome this?
- lurking_swe 2y ago
  the implementation seems quite reasonable to me. i’m not sure how this is any different than carrying your physical ID when going through TSA security? https://www.macrumors.com/2021/11/15/apple-strict-terms-on-us-states-digital-ids/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/11/15/apple-strict-terms-on-u... i suppose you could in theory imagine a future where apps “require” you to supply this to access some service online? is that the fear? Just FYI some financial apps already require you to take a picture with your drivers license and upload it as part of KYC and other requirements. Having an official way to validate this seems better than entrusting that data with private companies, no?
  - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
    I fear things like needing to scan IDs everywhere (like public transit) and then having your ID revoked for whatever reason (political, financial, whatever). If you look at China, you can see how digitization has been abused to infiltrate and control daily things.
    - lurking_swe 2y ago
      got it. i mean, what’s to say a physical ID cant be black listed today…nothing stopping them from creating a black list of ID numbers. Would be trivial to do from the governments perspective. (i’m putting on my black mirror hat so to speak)
- Spooky23 2y ago
  It’s better. Why does a bouncer at a bar need to know where I live? With digital id, presentation can be as simple as a green light.
neilv 2y ago
Why is this speaking of iPhone specifically, rather than some open standard?
- lxgr 2y ago
  It's based on an open standard which Apple implements, as far as I understand. State DMVs don't have to use Apple Wallet, in any case. I have a New York license that uses NY DMV's own (pretty clunky, to be honest) solution based on Bluetooth and QR codes.
spike021 2y ago
I installed the official App for California a while back but the kicker was they said you can't use it for anything. You still need a physical driver license for buying alcohol, if a police officer needs to see it. Can't remember if they're even usable for domestic travel yet.
- itsdrewmiller 2y ago
  They are legal but most airports don’t actually accept them. Gotta start somewhere though!
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- atonse 2y ago
  I’ve used mine at the TSA lines at all DC area airports. Worked beautifully.
ein0p 2y ago
Does anyone have a handle on how we’re getting screwed by RealID? The state governments are pushing it surprisingly strongly and without really explaining what is wrong with the IDs we already have.
- kstrauser 2y ago
  When I lived in a state without REAL ID, I showed up at the DMV with a couple of easily forged papers and walked out with a drivers license. Did you know there's not actually an official government standard for a christening document, and you could make one at home on a laser printer if you wanted to? Getting a REAL ID was the first time I ever felt like I'd truly proved my identity to a reasonable standard. I'm sure some states without REAL ID already make it hard to get a license. That wasn't my experience though. Missouri and Nebraska were more like, "oh, you've got a letter from your neighbor vouching that you're really Rusty Shackleford? Here you go, Mr. Shackleford!" I think states and the feds have a legitimate non-nefarious interest in proving a person's identity under the appropriate circumstances.
  - Spooky23 2y ago
    It’s all theatre. At the end of the day, you’re presenting proof that was essentially obtained the same way, a long time ago. The letter from your neighbor is surprisingly reliable. Certainly more reliable that a record of birth from Texas.
    - kstrauser 2y ago
      Does Texas have a hard time tracking birth records?
      - Spooky23 2y ago
        Texas allowed midwives to personally issue birth certificates. The political machinery in Texas has been historically pretty egregious on their abuse of these sorts of systems. They’ve cracked down in recent years. Birth certificates in general are pretty awful. IIRC there are like 12,000 known entities that issue them. Big states have required central registration for decades. For example, in New York the local municipality issues the birth certificate, but files a copy with the NYS (or NYC) Department of Health. Some smaller states left it to the town clerk in some tiny village. (Or did until relatively recently) There are many many corner cases with these sorts of records. Normie middle class people born in the US with two parents have very neat chains of custody of their records. There are millions who have very messy backgrounds or who don’t have their DOB or name officially recorded at all. Thats why voter ID laws are awful. You don’t have a fundamental right to an ID or obligation to have one, but you do have a right to vote. Putting friction in front of that is a means to disenfranchise people, it’s a form of poll tax.
danielodievich 2y ago
I just came back from short business trip Australia. Getting the visa was an interesting exercise, you install the AU gov app on the phone and fill out a form which at one point photographs your passport and then read yours passport via NFC to validate you were in possession of it and to get IDs and whatnot. It was a little finicky with the passport read, I had to move the phone really slowly across until it detected it and then NOT touch it at all. The submission took just minutes and the approval of the visa came in few more minutes later. Definitely a 21st century experience of submitting your ID! I am comparing it to getting visa to China in 2000 which required me to send off all kinds of paperwork, maybe even my passport? I don't fully recall, but it took weeks.
- ghaff 2y ago
  It's been awhile since I've had a send off your passport for a visa situation but I've definitely done it a number of times and actually canceled a couple of business trips to India because the timing didn't work.
nirav72 2y ago
Down here in Georgia we got this option couple of years ago. It seems that only place its valid is at TSA checkpoints. But its still doesn't work well at TSA checkpoints. I've made several flights this year and on half of them, the ID checker has never worked. Requiring me to pull out my physical license to show the TSA officer. Not sure if its an issue with Apple wallet or the TSA NFC scanners.
ChrisArchitect 2y ago
Related: Californians can now add their mobile driver's license to Google Wallet https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41395601 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41395601
lxgr 2y ago
Meanwhile New York just absolutely had to do their own thing – or rather use a vendor's app-based solution that's still only available to iOS and Android, combining the disadvantage of being only available for these two OSes with the inconvenience of not being integrated to the respective wallet apps natively. On the other hand, I’m glad that this is not being totally gatekept by Apple, even if that comes at the expense of personal convenience in this case.

63 points by srockets 2y ago

Great to see this starting to spread. I don't live in Hawaii, but I am envious of those that live there that can now use this feature. I live in California and have been wanting this for a while now. I just recently found out that California has a limited public rollout from last year [1], but it does _not_ have Apple Wallet support, yet anyways. Nice job Hawaii! [1]: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/ca-dmv-wallet/ https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/ca-dmv-wallet/

jer0me 2y ago
They just launched Google Wallet support and people have found marketing pages for an imminent Apple Wallet launch.
rookie 2y ago
Driver’s licenses and state IDs in Apple Wallet are coming soon to California https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2024/08/drivers-licenses-and-state-ids-in-apple-wallet-are-coming-soon-to-california/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2024/08/drivers-licenses-and-...
kstrauser 2y ago
Also Californian, and I envy Hawaii this. I've had the CA DMV Wallet app installed since its launch. Every single time I open it, 1. It tells me I need to refresh my license. I click the button. 2. It tells me I need to log into the DMV website. I grit my teeth and log in. 3. It tells me my password has expired and I need to update it because no one there has read the NIST guidelines. I snarl and update it. 4. I get an error message that the system is temporarily unavailable or something and my password can't be updated, so I can't log in, so I can't refresh my ID, so I can't use the app at all. At this point I only keep testing it out of sheer bullheadedness and a high pain tolerance.
- curioussavage 2y ago
  Same here in Utah. We had crazies screaming about mark of the beast when digital ID first came up. They finally started it and it’s only through some garbage app. Probably someone connected or whatever.
  - kstrauser 2y ago
    I grew up in another state with a large population of religiously conservative residents. When Amazon emailed me an ad for their new Amazon One service[0] that lets you literally buy things with a palm scan, I was able to correctly name the people I knew who'd lose their freaking mind about it. I'm convinced that they didn't include one single evangelical in their focus group, or that they ignored the feedback. [0]https://one.amazon.com https://one.amazon.com
- cge 2y ago
  That doesn't appear to be specific to the app. I also have the same thing happen on the website itself, on a desktop. It's not clear that logging in to the DMV is possible at all if your password is expired. Why so many government services in the US have such an obsession with scheduled periodic password resets, which the government's own standards body recommends against, is baffling.
  - kstrauser 2y ago
    Yeah, I just tried and confirmed that I still can't update my password on my desktop since I last tried on my phone this morning. It's just made that much harder to try on a phone. I have no idea. OK, I lied. I have some idea. At a previous job I had a meeting with an enterprise customer who was auditing our security controls. Part of the conversation went a lot like this: Them: How often do you require your employees to change their passwords? Me: We don't. Them: Hehe, you'll have to start doing that! Me: We comply with NIST 800-63B section 5.1.1.2 that says not to do that unless you suspect a password's been compromised. Them: Uh, what? Can you send me a link? Me: You bet! My boss, to me in Slack: OMFG did that really just happen? Yes, I did have (and do have) that exact citation memorized because it came up often enough that it was handy to bust that out. "Do you rotate..." "NIST!" "...once every 90..." "SP 800-63B!" "...days?" "5 dot 1 dot 1 dot 2!"

jagged-chisel 2y ago

I was surprised to get an alert months ago that Georgia was participating. Added my driving license to Apple Wallet … and had zero opportunity to use it from there.

nirav72 2y ago
It doesn't work well with TSA. It's hit or miss. At Hartsfield at least, half the times the reader comes back with an error. So the TSA person will ask me to show my physical ID. Initially I thought it was my phone, which is an old Iphone XS. Then I tried it my work phone which is a iphone 14. Same issue.

IncreasePosts 2y ago

You can also currently add your ID into Google Wallet if you live in: AZ, CA, CO, GA, or MD

samoyy 2y ago

"(include link to how to video here)"

modeless 2y ago

California licenses launched in Google Wallet just recently. I added mine last week. The thing I found interesting is that the instructions emphasized that you are not supposed to have to hand your phone to anyone. The license is checked wirelessly via Bluetooth. I'm certain people checking digital IDs are going to ask for your phone anyway though...

vlovich123 2y ago
The hope when I was on the standard body was that norms would shift as technology enabled it to be shifted. That’s also the reason the ID can contain multiple records that attest various proofs while preserving privacy (eg a store age check for restricted items or bar age check wouldn’t get anything other than your photo and a statement that you’re over a certain age without revealing your name, birthday, etc)
- klabb3 2y ago
  In a physical context this needs a photo to be included in the proof too, right? So the instructions for the verifier includes matching the face with the actual person.
  - vlovich123 2y ago
    Yes but it depends (eg in some cases you might have an automated machine do the face verification)
- modeless 2y ago
  I'm glad that the instructions make a big deal about it. Hopefully the systems that scan the IDs also instruct the users not to ask for the phones.
- mazsa 2y ago
  https://github.com/microsoft/uprove-node-reference/blob/main/doc/U-Prove%20Technology%20Overview%20V1.1%20Revision%203.pdf https://github.com/microsoft/uprove-node-reference/blob/main...

imroot 2y ago

Kentucky was in the launch release from apple[0], but, still have no formal plans on when they're launching the ability to do so. -- 0: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/09/apple-announces-first-states-to-adopt-drivers-licenses-and-state-ids-in-wallet/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/09/apple-announces-first...

urbandw311er 2y ago

Great - even more critical things to not have access to when my battery dies!

deleted 2y ago
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vehemenz 2y ago
I mean, as it stands a physical ID is one more critical thing besides your phone that you have to bring to the store.

hnpolicestate 2y ago

Can someone tell me why Apple and Google would want to provide this feature to people? How do they benefit?

tyre 2y ago
Building things people want? For Apple it all contributes to selling hardware. For google, they make money from phone manufacturers installing the google suite by default (afaik), usage of Google, and data collected.
croddin 2y ago
It gets people to not need to carry their wallet anymore so they will use apple/google pay instead of physical cards.
vel0city 2y ago
Further adoption of just using your phone in replacement of your whole wallet. Right now when I need to carry my ID I still just end up carrying my wallet. The wallet full of cards not tied to Google Wallet. When I buy things with the Google Wallet tap to pay I imagine they're getting some amount of metadata about that transaction. Also, its yet another feature for Google to have over Apple, or vice-versa. If one side gets it, the other will probably want to match the feature.
eblume 2y ago
I'm afraid it's staring right at you, in the name of the app: "Wallet". They want to replace your wallet. It's not enough for them to be in every person's pocket; they need the rest of the pockets to be empty, as well. I'm being hyperbolic, but I worry _not by much_.
- hnpolicestate 2y ago
  I think I agree with your comment the most, even though other comments did provide useful information. I still think too many people suffer from the "Google, Apple, etc" want to do this because they are altruistic. The only digital ID, wallet, etc I would want to use would be open source and non proprietary. Someone more intelligent than I could describe it more technically but I'm talking about a digital wallet that's the equivalent of SMS or ethernet. Like a technical standard, not a corporate product.

vxxzy 2y ago

Have this in Maryland. Local sheriff’s office won’t accept it. Bars and Restaurants won’t accept it either. Is this common in other states?

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throwaway240829 2y ago

> ... digital driver's licenses and state identification cards are currently accepted at ... Apple Stores in the U.S. and in select apps that require identity or age verification. Delightful. It's only a few years until anonymity on the internet will be a thing of the past. Every account will be tied to your government issued ID card. In the mean time, enjoy the novelty of using bluetooth to prove your age to the bartender.

williamcotton 2y ago
Anonymity isn't going anywhere, nor should it be banned. Some of us, myself included, would prefer communicating with people who use their own identity so they can be held accountable for their actions.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- deadlydose 2y ago
  That's exactly how Google finally cleaned up YouTube comments! /s
- lxgr 2y ago
  I think that would have a pretty concerning chilling effect in many public forums. Not everything needs to be on the public record permanently; among other problems, it makes it that much harder for people to walk themselves back from a previous extreme position as they grow up, make new experiences etc. Of course it depends on the use case, but for some, pseudonyms are really great. It's working pretty well over here, for example!
  - williamcotton 2y ago
    Sure, and I have pseudonyms in some forums and I would prefer to continue to use those. That doesn't mean there can't be optional forums or messaging platforms where everyone is required to have state-issued IDs. We're pretty close to a world where anonymous forums are going to be overrun with LLMs that are somewhat indistinguishable from real people. In addition, the main True Identity (TM) platforms are Facebook and Twitter, private companies in a privileged position regarding identity verification. I'd much rather have a public institution issuing PKI enabled ID cards and having individual states operating as certificate authorities with DMVs being the gatekeepers.

marssaxman 2y ago

Of course I will never want to do this, but I wonder how many years it will take before people start trying to make me.

itake 2y ago
I've lost my wallet more times than I've lost my phone. Sign me up!
- marssaxman 2y ago
  That's great - if it feels like a valuable service to you, then have at it! I'm not against the option; I'm just feeling really uncomfortable with the proliferation of "no cash accepted" signs I've been seeing lately, and it's easy to imagine the same situation developing with regard to the rest of one's wallet. "Pick which of these two giant corporations gets to control your proof of identity" is not a future I want to live in; I hope there's a way to avoid that.

breck 2y ago

I live in Hawai'i and have a Hawai'i driver's license. I don't own a phone, so this isn't relevant to me, but think it's cool, and happy for those who want it. Also, for other HN readers from Hawai'i, check out the first ever Honolulu Tech Week happening next month: https://www.honolulutechweek.com/ https://www.honolulutechweek.com/

alexchantavy 2y ago
Thanks for sharing, this makes me happy as someone from there
- breck 2y ago
  aloha!

swozey 2y ago

I do some bartending and I'm really curious whats going to happen with digital wallets, on the ID and payment end. I think they're amazing and would love to not worry about losing plastic but we aren't there yet. Lots of POS systems need to be upgraded and that is not something bars are looking to spend money on. I have 21yos come in all the time nowadays without a wallet/license/debit cards expecting to use digitalID and ApplePay for literally everything in their lives. We reluctantly take Apple Pay now, the reluctance is it's not like opening a normal tab. The card number is rolling so you have to give give me a card first to even open a tab or else I have to trust you're "Jon at Seat 3 Who Will Pay Me Later", because I can't ring you out without grabbing your phone and shoving it at my POS right when you're paying out. Also I have to have you unlock your phone and bring it over to my POS and hope it doesn't lock by the time I scan it. And if its busy and you want to Apple Pay you're a nightmare. I flew to Vegas last year with only a digital ID and paper temp, lost mine right before flight. I actually don't think I had any problems other than being brought aside to be searched at each airport since I was an "Exception" with my temp license but I know places for sure won't accept a digital ID yet for drinks. Retail and a lot of places just aren't there with the tech yet. Also.. will there really be an era where nobody can use fake IDs? They're kinda fun to catch..

kstrauser 2y ago
Regarding running a tab: When I use Apple Pay at a gas pump, it first creates a temporary charge for more than I'm likely to spend. When I'm done pumping, it charges the actual amount and removes the reservation. I wonder if a bar tab could eventually work like that, where you temporarily hold $50 or whatever and then reconcile it when I close my tab. As a bonus, you'd never have someone forget and leave there credit card there again.
ghaff 2y ago
A few years ago (pre-COVID) I somehow lost my license between the car and the airport door. To my complete amazement wasn't a particular issue with TSA. WAS an issue checking into a Travelodge of all places and only made it work by paying cash.
sunshowers 2y ago

cpfohl 2y ago

> Digital driver’s licenses cannot be used as proof of name and address to fulfill the lawful order of a police officer. This drives me nuts…a police officer can look up my license if I offer my name and address. Why do I need to carry an easily lost piece of plastic and paper to prove I’m me? It’s harder to forge a record on the DMV db than my license… This is a genuine question, if anyone knows the reasoning behind this I’d be thrilled.

kstrauser 2y ago
Your average person couldn't forge either one. The CA license has a lot of anti-forgery features that I'm sure could be worked around, but not by anyone who isn't premeditating a whole lot of crime. I can understand a reasonable wish from police departments to verify someone's identity even if they're in a place with bad cell coverage, or during a thunderstorm, or when the radio's busted. An ID card is pretty strong evidence of your real ID that doesn't require power or a radio connection or a computer. A cop can just look at it and say, no, that's clearly your older brother.
- hnpolicestate 2y ago
  The world changed so fast. It was the norm when I went to college in the mid 00's to forge your birthday on your drivers license to get into bars. Kids will have a less interesting and unpredictable future I fear.
  - kstrauser 2y ago
    I would never have done that! Having spent a lot of time around today's kids, particularly the ones who grew up in my house, I have the utmost faith in their ability to create new kinds of mischief. They'll be alright.
  - jrockway 2y ago
    I would think "replay attack" works in a lot of cases now. Find someone over 21, get their barcode on the back of the license, sticker that over yours. For bars that just scan and get yes/no, you're in. No need to modify the face of the license, which nobody but the TSA seems to look at. (I buy sudafed every month... the pharmacy never checks that I look like the ID; just that the barcode scans.) A place I used to work had 3D badges, so that your face kind of appeared to be sticking out as you inspected the badges. (Lenticular lenses.) I thought this was a neat security feature, so I color printed a copy of my badge and just put it in my badge holder in front of the actual badge to see if anyone would notice mine wasn't 3D. They did not notice, never in 5 years.

rootusrootus 2y ago

Oregon doesn't even have this on the radar anywhere, and I'm kinda bummed. Probably still carry my wallet with me for the indefinite future, but having an alternate option would be nice. I'd be up for a mobile passport, too. Already has a chip anyway that gets read, so what's the difference? And on the plus side that would be something you wouldn't accidentally forget in the hotel safe. What I'd want to establish, however, is what the backup plan looks like if your phone gets lost/stolen/destroyed. How quickly can I bet up and running on a replacement device, and what hoops will I have to jump through to get it working again?

ghaff 2y ago
I expect that, if this becomes the norm, you're basically in a world of hurt if your phone gets stolen, lost, broken, etc. Bad things obviously can already happen if your backpack gets lifted etc. But I'm personally already very nervous about tying everything to my phone. I do still carry a wallet, albeit a small front-pocket one with just a little cash and some important cards. But, then, I don't really like not to have a paper map of some sort when hiking in unfamiliar locations either.

perihelions 2y ago

I think this is disturbing and should be made illegal—to tie a government service to a single corporate provider in this way. I don't care how much money Apple paid to develop this, or how convenient they made it for the state of Hawaii to adopt their ready-made product, or how inconvenient it would be to a do this in an platform-agnostic way equitable to all of their residents. This is simply a monopolistic abuse of government services, and of the public. Any such service should be free and open to many providers, or not available at all. No fast-lanes for Apple customers. This is not how a fair, equitable public service should work. - "Requires iPhone 8 or later with iOS 16.5 or later, Apple Watch Series 4 or later with WatchOS 9.5 or later" (hidot.hawaii.gov) (I've browsed around this website and there doesn't appear to be any other option equivalent to this one).

kstrauser 2y ago
The search term you're googling for is "ISO/IEC 18013-5", which explains how Apple, Google, and anyone else who wants to implement the standard can do this. Of course, then you'd need to go through a fairly massive audit for the local government to trust that you're not going to immediately upload all your users' PII to the dark web. I'd be shocked if Apple and Google weren't the first ones to successfully complete that part.
lurking_swe 2y ago
I agree with the sentiment. However i’m not too concerned about this specific situation because at least apple seems to have gone about it in a reasonable way. They are forcing each state to build an integration, own the infrastructure, database, and code. Apple is also using a known standard. Using a standard is a good thing, and i’m glad that the state is not beholden to apple to run a core government service. I’m glad apple didn’t push some proprietary BS and try to lock the state into their custom solution. https://www.macrumors.com/2021/11/15/apple-strict-terms-on-us-states-digital-ids/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/11/15/apple-strict-terms-on-u... the article uses emotionally charged language like “charges footed to the taxpayer”, but IMO that’s a good thing. It benefits tax payers.
- Spooky23 2y ago

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

I am very skeptical of digital IDs and digitization in general. I have a feeling it will lead to violation of privacy and an increase in government surveillance and control. Why do people welcome this?

lurking_swe 2y ago
the implementation seems quite reasonable to me. i’m not sure how this is any different than carrying your physical ID when going through TSA security? https://www.macrumors.com/2021/11/15/apple-strict-terms-on-us-states-digital-ids/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/11/15/apple-strict-terms-on-u... i suppose you could in theory imagine a future where apps “require” you to supply this to access some service online? is that the fear? Just FYI some financial apps already require you to take a picture with your drivers license and upload it as part of KYC and other requirements. Having an official way to validate this seems better than entrusting that data with private companies, no?
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  I fear things like needing to scan IDs everywhere (like public transit) and then having your ID revoked for whatever reason (political, financial, whatever). If you look at China, you can see how digitization has been abused to infiltrate and control daily things.
  - lurking_swe 2y ago
    got it. i mean, what’s to say a physical ID cant be black listed today…nothing stopping them from creating a black list of ID numbers. Would be trivial to do from the governments perspective. (i’m putting on my black mirror hat so to speak)
Spooky23 2y ago
It’s better. Why does a bouncer at a bar need to know where I live? With digital id, presentation can be as simple as a green light.

neilv 2y ago

Why is this speaking of iPhone specifically, rather than some open standard?

lxgr 2y ago
It's based on an open standard which Apple implements, as far as I understand. State DMVs don't have to use Apple Wallet, in any case. I have a New York license that uses NY DMV's own (pretty clunky, to be honest) solution based on Bluetooth and QR codes.

spike021 2y ago

I installed the official App for California a while back but the kicker was they said you can't use it for anything. You still need a physical driver license for buying alcohol, if a police officer needs to see it. Can't remember if they're even usable for domestic travel yet.

itsdrewmiller 2y ago
They are legal but most airports don’t actually accept them. Gotta start somewhere though!
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atonse 2y ago
I’ve used mine at the TSA lines at all DC area airports. Worked beautifully.

ein0p 2y ago

Does anyone have a handle on how we’re getting screwed by RealID? The state governments are pushing it surprisingly strongly and without really explaining what is wrong with the IDs we already have.

kstrauser 2y ago
When I lived in a state without REAL ID, I showed up at the DMV with a couple of easily forged papers and walked out with a drivers license. Did you know there's not actually an official government standard for a christening document, and you could make one at home on a laser printer if you wanted to? Getting a REAL ID was the first time I ever felt like I'd truly proved my identity to a reasonable standard. I'm sure some states without REAL ID already make it hard to get a license. That wasn't my experience though. Missouri and Nebraska were more like, "oh, you've got a letter from your neighbor vouching that you're really Rusty Shackleford? Here you go, Mr. Shackleford!" I think states and the feds have a legitimate non-nefarious interest in proving a person's identity under the appropriate circumstances.
- Spooky23 2y ago
  It’s all theatre. At the end of the day, you’re presenting proof that was essentially obtained the same way, a long time ago. The letter from your neighbor is surprisingly reliable. Certainly more reliable that a record of birth from Texas.
  - kstrauser 2y ago
    Does Texas have a hard time tracking birth records?
    - Spooky23 2y ago
      Texas allowed midwives to personally issue birth certificates. The political machinery in Texas has been historically pretty egregious on their abuse of these sorts of systems. They’ve cracked down in recent years. Birth certificates in general are pretty awful. IIRC there are like 12,000 known entities that issue them. Big states have required central registration for decades. For example, in New York the local municipality issues the birth certificate, but files a copy with the NYS (or NYC) Department of Health. Some smaller states left it to the town clerk in some tiny village. (Or did until relatively recently) There are many many corner cases with these sorts of records. Normie middle class people born in the US with two parents have very neat chains of custody of their records. There are millions who have very messy backgrounds or who don’t have their DOB or name officially recorded at all. Thats why voter ID laws are awful. You don’t have a fundamental right to an ID or obligation to have one, but you do have a right to vote. Putting friction in front of that is a means to disenfranchise people, it’s a form of poll tax.

danielodievich 2y ago

I just came back from short business trip Australia. Getting the visa was an interesting exercise, you install the AU gov app on the phone and fill out a form which at one point photographs your passport and then read yours passport via NFC to validate you were in possession of it and to get IDs and whatnot. It was a little finicky with the passport read, I had to move the phone really slowly across until it detected it and then NOT touch it at all. The submission took just minutes and the approval of the visa came in few more minutes later. Definitely a 21st century experience of submitting your ID! I am comparing it to getting visa to China in 2000 which required me to send off all kinds of paperwork, maybe even my passport? I don't fully recall, but it took weeks.

ghaff 2y ago
It's been awhile since I've had a send off your passport for a visa situation but I've definitely done it a number of times and actually canceled a couple of business trips to India because the timing didn't work.

nirav72 2y ago

Down here in Georgia we got this option couple of years ago. It seems that only place its valid is at TSA checkpoints. But its still doesn't work well at TSA checkpoints. I've made several flights this year and on half of them, the ID checker has never worked. Requiring me to pull out my physical license to show the TSA officer. Not sure if its an issue with Apple wallet or the TSA NFC scanners.

ChrisArchitect 2y ago

Related: Californians can now add their mobile driver's license to Google Wallet https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41395601 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41395601

lxgr 2y ago

Meanwhile New York just absolutely had to do their own thing – or rather use a vendor's app-based solution that's still only available to iOS and Android, combining the disadvantage of being only available for these two OSes with the inconvenience of not being integrated to the respective wallet apps natively. On the other hand, I’m glad that this is not being totally gatekept by Apple, even if that comes at the expense of personal convenience in this case.