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There seems to be a lot of arguments citing that "$otherPlatform should be held liable for the same things!" The main takeaway here is that Durov is not being

There seems to be a lot of arguments citing that "$otherPlatform should be held liable for the same things!" The main takeaway here is that Durov is not being arrested strictly because his platform contains illegal material. He is being arrested because (allegedly) - he is aware of the illegal material, and - he refuses to cooperate with law enforcement to remove that material. So the French authorities are charging him with being complicit in a lot of this stuff. Platforms like Signal can get away with this because they are properly E2E encrypted, and cannot identify illegal content. Telegram, on the other hand, has decryption keys for the messages and media sent in group chats, meaning they can identify and remove illegal content if they choose to.

Shank 2y ago
> Platforms like Signal can get away with this because they are properly E2E encrypted, and cannot identify illegal content. Telegram, on the other hand, has decryption keys for the messages and media sent in group chats, meaning they can identify and remove illegal content if they choose to. I feel like I must emphasize this because it's repeatedly missed. Telegram has mainly 3 different components. The first is a server-side encrypted messaging platform, which is unremarkable, and as-secure as Discord or Slack. The second is its "E2EE" system, secret chats, which don't sync, and have not been broken (though people have raised some concerns historically about it). The third system is channels, which are basically subscription feeds from users. Channels are as secure as Slack or Discord or Twitter or Facebook. The whole point of Channels is that you can subscribe to channels and get messages in Telegram from them, but they're basically open access. A good example is Durov's channel: https://t.me/s/durov https://t.me/s/durov Now I say all of this because the vast majority of people believe that E2EE would solve the problem here. The reality is that channels doesn't make sense to be E2EE since anyone can join, and channels are where are a large amount of the "interesting" content to law enforcement occurs. Abuse definitely occurs to some degree on all 3 components, but channels simply don't exist in Signal, as an example.
- xvector 2y ago
  We have robust cryptographic constructions for channels at this point. One is described in https://www.ietf.org/blog/mls-secure-and-usable-end-to-end-encryption/ https://www.ietf.org/blog/mls-secure-and-usable-end-to-end-e...
  - HL33tibCe7 2y ago
    If you’d have read the comment you’re replying to, you’d know that “robust cryptographic constructions” are irrelevant here, because channels are publicly-accessible.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- BlueTemplar 2y ago
  Also Telegram behaves better than you would expect from a platform : they still provide(d?) a quite open interface for others to crawl : https://www.wired.com/story/the-kremlin-has-entered-the-chat/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-kremlin-has-entered-the-chat... (The downside of course is that it's then also open to «bad actors».)
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
harryf 2y ago
> Platforms like Signal can get away with this because they are properly E2E encrypted, and cannot identify illegal content. Signal isn't magically protected by proper E2E encryption. When the time comes to take them down legally, all that's needed is evidence from end users phones demonstrating illegal activities occurring over Signal. But - for now - Signal seems to have better friends and or be upsetting less authorities than Telegram. To me it's pretty clear reason why they've gone after Telegram is the Channels and Groups. Seen from a certain perspective Telegram channels are an alternative to Reddit, and have been popular medium during COVID and the Ukraine war for "alternative news". By now Reddit is properly controlled and subdued but Telegram isn't.
- ralfn 2y ago
  >To me it's pretty clear reason why they've gone after Telegram is the Channels and Groups. Seen from a certain perspective Telegram channels are an alternative to Reddit, and have been popular medium during COVID and the Ukraine war for "alternative news". By now Reddit is properly controlled and subdued but Telegram isn't. This is full on speculation. Right now the reality is you can buy underage people, drugs and weapons on telegram. ISIS recruitment channels, etc. Playing the "free speech" card is disingenuous.
  - NayamAmarshe 2y ago
    Telegram regularly bans channels that promote hate-speech or do illegal activities. The only issue is, their team is way too small for moderation, which is why so many weird communities keep popping up. I’ve been on Telegram for 5 years and I’ve yet to see anything of what you mentioned in your comment. It’s a fear mongering tactic against a perfectly good and arguably the best messenger application in existence right now.
    - tcfhgj 2y ago
      I have seen it constantly. IDK why, but so sometimes I got just invited into such groups. When I activated the function to find people around me, most of the time I was spending in Telegram was leaving and reporting such groups. Some of the channels, even discoverable by simple search, were years old. "Arguably" Element is way better than Telegram, it actually properly encrypts private chats AND allows sync between devices

Shank 2y ago

> Platforms like Signal can get away with this because they are properly E2E encrypted, and cannot identify illegal content. Telegram, on the other hand, has decryption keys for the messages and media sent in group chats, meaning they can identify and remove illegal content if they choose to. I feel like I must emphasize this because it's repeatedly missed. Telegram has mainly 3 different components. The first is a server-side encrypted messaging platform, which is unremarkable, and as-secure as Discord or Slack. The second is its "E2EE" system, secret chats, which don't sync, and have not been broken (though people have raised some concerns historically about it). The third system is channels, which are basically subscription feeds from users. Channels are as secure as Slack or Discord or Twitter or Facebook. The whole point of Channels is that you can subscribe to channels and get messages in Telegram from them, but they're basically open access. A good example is Durov's channel: https://t.me/s/durov https://t.me/s/durov Now I say all of this because the vast majority of people believe that E2EE would solve the problem here. The reality is that channels doesn't make sense to be E2EE since anyone can join, and channels are where are a large amount of the "interesting" content to law enforcement occurs. Abuse definitely occurs to some degree on all 3 components, but channels simply don't exist in Signal, as an example.

xvector 2y ago
We have robust cryptographic constructions for channels at this point. One is described in https://www.ietf.org/blog/mls-secure-and-usable-end-to-end-encryption/ https://www.ietf.org/blog/mls-secure-and-usable-end-to-end-e...
- HL33tibCe7 2y ago
  If you’d have read the comment you’re replying to, you’d know that “robust cryptographic constructions” are irrelevant here, because channels are publicly-accessible.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
BlueTemplar 2y ago
Also Telegram behaves better than you would expect from a platform : they still provide(d?) a quite open interface for others to crawl : https://www.wired.com/story/the-kremlin-has-entered-the-chat/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-kremlin-has-entered-the-chat... (The downside of course is that it's then also open to «bad actors».)

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

harryf 2y ago

> Platforms like Signal can get away with this because they are properly E2E encrypted, and cannot identify illegal content. Signal isn't magically protected by proper E2E encryption. When the time comes to take them down legally, all that's needed is evidence from end users phones demonstrating illegal activities occurring over Signal. But - for now - Signal seems to have better friends and or be upsetting less authorities than Telegram. To me it's pretty clear reason why they've gone after Telegram is the Channels and Groups. Seen from a certain perspective Telegram channels are an alternative to Reddit, and have been popular medium during COVID and the Ukraine war for "alternative news". By now Reddit is properly controlled and subdued but Telegram isn't.

ralfn 2y ago
>To me it's pretty clear reason why they've gone after Telegram is the Channels and Groups. Seen from a certain perspective Telegram channels are an alternative to Reddit, and have been popular medium during COVID and the Ukraine war for "alternative news". By now Reddit is properly controlled and subdued but Telegram isn't. This is full on speculation. Right now the reality is you can buy underage people, drugs and weapons on telegram. ISIS recruitment channels, etc. Playing the "free speech" card is disingenuous.
- NayamAmarshe 2y ago
  Telegram regularly bans channels that promote hate-speech or do illegal activities. The only issue is, their team is way too small for moderation, which is why so many weird communities keep popping up. I’ve been on Telegram for 5 years and I’ve yet to see anything of what you mentioned in your comment. It’s a fear mongering tactic against a perfectly good and arguably the best messenger application in existence right now.
  - tcfhgj 2y ago
    I have seen it constantly. IDK why, but so sometimes I got just invited into such groups. When I activated the function to find people around me, most of the time I was spending in Telegram was leaving and reporting such groups. Some of the channels, even discoverable by simple search, were years old. "Arguably" Element is way better than Telegram, it actually properly encrypts private chats AND allows sync between devices