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Wait, why would showering in a lightning storm not be safe? Do you expect the lightning to discharge in the pipes of your house? How? Or is it that your childr

Wait, why would showering in a lightning storm not be safe? Do you expect the lightning to discharge in the pipes of your house? How? Or is it that your children would be scared if the power goes out when they're showering? That I understand.

spdustin 2y ago
Yes, especially in older homes or homes with poor grounding. Lightning can discharge through water supply lines[0]. There are even cases of toilets exploding due to lightning strikes[1]. (Google for more) Sure, it's exceedingly rare. But it's also exceedingly easy to avoid. I've taught my kids that some decisions are easier when defined as binary rules; judgment calls in cases like this just don't offer any tangible benefit other than "I showered an hour earlier than I would have otherwise." [0]: https://www.weather.gov/safety/lightning-indoors https://www.weather.gov/safety/lightning-indoors [1]: https://fox8.com/news/lightning-blows-up-toilet-after-traveling-through-apartment-buildings-exhaust-vent/ https://fox8.com/news/lightning-blows-up-toilet-after-travel... MythBusters even did a bit on it. They rated it "plausible".
- phoronixrly 2y ago
  Ok, blanket advice from US governmental agencies and a Mythbusters episode with electrical and water installations that seem... Very DIY and not up to code? I mean it is mythbusters... IDK. I suspect power outage in the shower is more dangerous in my case than any other electrical issue... I guess it may be more of a US issue, especially since I am not finding any advice from EU agencies on the matter?...
  - spdustin 2y ago
    Building are different in different countries, and other geopolitical divisions. The UK authorities, for example, say it's safe to shower during a storm as long as your plumbing has been properly integrated into a standards-compliant equipotential bonding, noting that said standards change over time. So, you'd have to know them and trust/verify the builder followed them. Or, you know, just wait a while and enjoy the show. Whatever. You do you.
- lxgr 2y ago
  On the other hand, I wonder if you might be teaching a bad lesson about neglect of probability [1] here. The shower itself is probably orders of magnitude more dangerous by itself. I'm wondering because I am also unsure myself if I should be concerned about lightning when showering, or whether it's statistically speaking an absolute waste of time :) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neglect_of_probability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neglect_of_probability
  - spdustin 2y ago
    The difference in expected utility from showering (either during a lightning storm or not) is minimally affected by the choice to postpone it. That's why I'm content to call it a binary rule. The choice of showering/bathing at all has a different risk profile, yes, and also a different expected utility. Comparing the two is a false equivalence. Statistically speaking: our kids (and their parents) simply enjoy watching storms, and we all choose to shower when the risk of lightning is zero. That choice maximizes utility, as our subjective enjoyment of the light show isn't diminished by postponing something as pedestrian as a shower for an hour.
    - sadcherry 2y ago
      Do you have any statistics about lightning-related injuries or deaths in showers?
      - wickedsight 2y ago
        I had to look it up, because this seems like a pretty unrealistic fear to me. What I fond: > less than 1 in 1 million chance of being struck by lightning directly or indirectly > One-third of all lightning injuries occur indoors. I'm pretty terrible at statistics, but I think we can assume that there's a less than 1 in 3 million chance to be injured by lightning indoors. But lightning related injuries indoors could also be from a window exploding after lightning hits a tree outside, or a fire related injury from a lightning strike to the house. So what's the chance of being hit by lightning in the shower? And then being seriously injured? Snopes lists 4 examples of people being hit by lightning in the shower, spread over 20 years. All of them with minor injuries. The chance of major injuries is also much lower than with a direct lightning strike. So finally, is the 'safe to shower' thing useful? I'd say that making this is probably time that could've been spent on more useful safety related things. Also, if it's just 'is it safe to shower?', it ignores tons of other dangers inside the house during thunder storms. Touching any tap, corded appliance, concrete wall or floor or being near an outlet is just as dangerous as being in the shower and none of those things are particularly dangerous in the grand scheme of things!
- Spivak 2y ago
  But is there any risk to you being in the path of least resistance? All your pipes are connected (to the ground) so why would the electricity not take the readily available metal path?
  - spdustin 2y ago
    The risk of death of showering during a lightning storm could be the same as the risk of death going for a 15 mile drive[0]. A typical lightning bolt is about 300 million Volts and about 30,000 Amps. Since even the best-grounded home certainly can't sink 30,000 amps of current into the neutral-bonded earth bar, it has to go somewhere. It finds multiple paths, and the current is shared between them. There's also the conversion to heat in all those insufficient conductors, etc. [0]:https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/is-it-safe-to-take-a-shower-during-a-thunderstorm-9966031.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/is-it-safe-to-tak...
  - therein 2y ago
    I think they don't trust the grounding or the house doesn't have proper grounding. Either way should be easy to test. Run the showers and excite the paratoner.
    - spdustin 2y ago
      I learned long ago not to trust corporate homebuilders.
  - icehawk 2y ago
    Electricity doesn't only take the path of least resistance, it takes all paths available in inverse proportion to their resistance (impedance really.) And since the water and sewage systems are plumbing systems and not electrical systems, its highly likely they'd be at different electrical potentials in a strike.
- optymizer 2y ago
  I don't know about this approach. Seems a bit panicky / heavy-handed to turn this particular risk into a "judgment call" compared to all the other risky things kids do. Could just be an occasional conversation / reminder: - "We can't take a bath / shower right now. There's a big lightning storm outside." - "Why not?" - "The lightning hits the ground and it can spread through the water. It's not safe." - "OK" Is it really worth teaching kids to check this signal every day, instead of having this conversation like twice a year? If the kids had to check multiple things before showering, this light would simplify the decision making process, but by the sound of it, it's redundant. If it's unsafe enough not to shower, you'll probably hear the thunder too. There's your signal not to shower. Though maybe it's not like that and the kids enjoy it.
  - spdustin 2y ago
    It storms a lot here. And kids are notorious for not hearing things that are obvious to the rest of us. :) My kids aren't paranoid, they don't freak out about the storms. It's just a natural thing, and a reminder that there's a potential that nature's best light show is in store for them. A nice side effect is that they're not afraid of storms—they look forward to watching them.
AhriSafari 2y ago
I learned a few months ago showering in lightning is dangerous.
- phoronixrly 2y ago
  You can't just say that without explaining why. I live on the 8/10 floor of a building that gets yearly lightning rod inspections. All piping has been replaced with polypropylene (clean water) or PVC (dirty) and even when it was metal, the electrical and water systems were far apart from one another. Even if they were not far apart, all wiring is underground. The transformer is inside a nearby building and also has lightning rods/wires and all wiring to and from it is underground. There is literally no scenario apart from ball lightning coming through my bathroom window while I shower that I can think of
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    > I live on the 8/10 floor of a building that gets yearly lightning rod inspections. That puts you in a very exclusive community. Most landlords don't bother to do anything that's not required by code/law.
ripped_britches 2y ago
There’s no risk if your water supply lines are pex instead of copper
- telgareith 2y ago
  Yea, because water is an amazing insulator. /s
  - adrianN 2y ago
    Water is a reasonably good insulator actually. You need a lot of dissolved minerals to make it a good conductor. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dcrY59nGxBg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dcrY59nGxBg
telgareith 2y ago
Lightning has reached down from 10,000ft to strike the ground, do not make the mistake that it cares about anything humanity has built. Even with a lightning rod/abatement system, its probabilities and 'preferred paths.' Plus, we really don't know all that much about lightning. Things like "ball lightning" (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning) seem insane/impossible, but theres too many reports from everywhere on earth that go back hundreds of years- enough of them from reliable sources that its just "unexplained."
- zikzak 2y ago
  My father was born in 1930 and shared a bed with two siblings around ages 5-8. The bedroom was a small room at the top of the house and was on the wall where the electrical supply attached to the house from the street. During a bad storm one night, they heard a buzzing sound at the window by their bed and saw an intense light outside. The ball lightning then entered their room at the window (I have no idea how that would work) and followed the wall out to the hallway. The whole time, they could hear a sizzling noise and the light was blinding. Where it had entered the room, there was a fire outside where the electrical supply connected the house that entered the room. They took off out the door and down the the stairs. The fire damaged their house but did not spread (they think the rain put it out). I have also heard that there was a family that had ball lightning enter their house down the wood stove chimney and emerge into their kitchen, followed the wall around the room, and the fizzled out. Both incidents were a very long time ago. Other than that, I don't know anyone who has seen this phenomenon personally (my father passed away a couple of years ago).
  - telgareith 2y ago
    Nobody knows. It's why it's so interesting, and controversial. "Two children and fire? Ball lightning... I've never heard matches called that before..." But then somebody stops and thinks... How would they know about Ball lightning at that age, in that age. Repeat that with thousands of accounts across cultures, continents, and at least 500 years. It's a real humdinger. Descriptions of Ball lightning are, afaik, more consistent than how people of different cultures handle psych problems. I find it comforting to know there's so much more about the world to explore.
atoav 2y ago
Lightning strikes can induce significant current flows within all conducting parts of a building. This is obviously worse with parts that are not (or not well) grounded. Basically without a lightning protection system you could stand next to a power outlet and a spark could bridge over to you and flow into the ground (there are slomo videos of such things happening in specific tests that have been conducted). I think the shower warning app is a bit overkill. If your place is that frequently hit by lightning strikes I'd install a proper lightning protection system with a narrow mesh width and surge protection devices in all sections of the house. Yeah and ground that shower. The hardest part about retrofitting such a system is getting a decent/low impedance ground connection. Ideally you'd embedded a steel mesh into the fundament and connect it to the lightning protection system on all sides. This is kinda hard if a house is already there, so digging deep on the sides of the house and trying to get connections under it (if possible) is the next alternative. In any case make sure that ground impedance is actually measured..

spdustin 2y ago

Yes, especially in older homes or homes with poor grounding. Lightning can discharge through water supply lines[0]. There are even cases of toilets exploding due to lightning strikes[1]. (Google for more) Sure, it's exceedingly rare. But it's also exceedingly easy to avoid. I've taught my kids that some decisions are easier when defined as binary rules; judgment calls in cases like this just don't offer any tangible benefit other than "I showered an hour earlier than I would have otherwise." [0]: https://www.weather.gov/safety/lightning-indoors https://www.weather.gov/safety/lightning-indoors [1]: https://fox8.com/news/lightning-blows-up-toilet-after-traveling-through-apartment-buildings-exhaust-vent/ https://fox8.com/news/lightning-blows-up-toilet-after-travel... MythBusters even did a bit on it. They rated it "plausible".

phoronixrly 2y ago
Ok, blanket advice from US governmental agencies and a Mythbusters episode with electrical and water installations that seem... Very DIY and not up to code? I mean it is mythbusters... IDK. I suspect power outage in the shower is more dangerous in my case than any other electrical issue... I guess it may be more of a US issue, especially since I am not finding any advice from EU agencies on the matter?...
- spdustin 2y ago
  Building are different in different countries, and other geopolitical divisions. The UK authorities, for example, say it's safe to shower during a storm as long as your plumbing has been properly integrated into a standards-compliant equipotential bonding, noting that said standards change over time. So, you'd have to know them and trust/verify the builder followed them. Or, you know, just wait a while and enjoy the show. Whatever. You do you.
lxgr 2y ago
On the other hand, I wonder if you might be teaching a bad lesson about neglect of probability [1] here. The shower itself is probably orders of magnitude more dangerous by itself. I'm wondering because I am also unsure myself if I should be concerned about lightning when showering, or whether it's statistically speaking an absolute waste of time :) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neglect_of_probability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neglect_of_probability
- spdustin 2y ago
  The difference in expected utility from showering (either during a lightning storm or not) is minimally affected by the choice to postpone it. That's why I'm content to call it a binary rule. The choice of showering/bathing at all has a different risk profile, yes, and also a different expected utility. Comparing the two is a false equivalence. Statistically speaking: our kids (and their parents) simply enjoy watching storms, and we all choose to shower when the risk of lightning is zero. That choice maximizes utility, as our subjective enjoyment of the light show isn't diminished by postponing something as pedestrian as a shower for an hour.
  - sadcherry 2y ago
    Do you have any statistics about lightning-related injuries or deaths in showers?
    - wickedsight 2y ago
      I had to look it up, because this seems like a pretty unrealistic fear to me. What I fond: > less than 1 in 1 million chance of being struck by lightning directly or indirectly > One-third of all lightning injuries occur indoors. I'm pretty terrible at statistics, but I think we can assume that there's a less than 1 in 3 million chance to be injured by lightning indoors. But lightning related injuries indoors could also be from a window exploding after lightning hits a tree outside, or a fire related injury from a lightning strike to the house. So what's the chance of being hit by lightning in the shower? And then being seriously injured? Snopes lists 4 examples of people being hit by lightning in the shower, spread over 20 years. All of them with minor injuries. The chance of major injuries is also much lower than with a direct lightning strike. So finally, is the 'safe to shower' thing useful? I'd say that making this is probably time that could've been spent on more useful safety related things. Also, if it's just 'is it safe to shower?', it ignores tons of other dangers inside the house during thunder storms. Touching any tap, corded appliance, concrete wall or floor or being near an outlet is just as dangerous as being in the shower and none of those things are particularly dangerous in the grand scheme of things!
Spivak 2y ago
But is there any risk to you being in the path of least resistance? All your pipes are connected (to the ground) so why would the electricity not take the readily available metal path?
- spdustin 2y ago
  The risk of death of showering during a lightning storm could be the same as the risk of death going for a 15 mile drive[0]. A typical lightning bolt is about 300 million Volts and about 30,000 Amps. Since even the best-grounded home certainly can't sink 30,000 amps of current into the neutral-bonded earth bar, it has to go somewhere. It finds multiple paths, and the current is shared between them. There's also the conversion to heat in all those insufficient conductors, etc. [0]:https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/is-it-safe-to-take-a-shower-during-a-thunderstorm-9966031.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/is-it-safe-to-tak...
- therein 2y ago
  I think they don't trust the grounding or the house doesn't have proper grounding. Either way should be easy to test. Run the showers and excite the paratoner.
  - spdustin 2y ago
    I learned long ago not to trust corporate homebuilders.
- icehawk 2y ago
  Electricity doesn't only take the path of least resistance, it takes all paths available in inverse proportion to their resistance (impedance really.) And since the water and sewage systems are plumbing systems and not electrical systems, its highly likely they'd be at different electrical potentials in a strike.
optymizer 2y ago
I don't know about this approach. Seems a bit panicky / heavy-handed to turn this particular risk into a "judgment call" compared to all the other risky things kids do. Could just be an occasional conversation / reminder: - "We can't take a bath / shower right now. There's a big lightning storm outside." - "Why not?" - "The lightning hits the ground and it can spread through the water. It's not safe." - "OK" Is it really worth teaching kids to check this signal every day, instead of having this conversation like twice a year? If the kids had to check multiple things before showering, this light would simplify the decision making process, but by the sound of it, it's redundant. If it's unsafe enough not to shower, you'll probably hear the thunder too. There's your signal not to shower. Though maybe it's not like that and the kids enjoy it.
- spdustin 2y ago
  It storms a lot here. And kids are notorious for not hearing things that are obvious to the rest of us. :) My kids aren't paranoid, they don't freak out about the storms. It's just a natural thing, and a reminder that there's a potential that nature's best light show is in store for them. A nice side effect is that they're not afraid of storms—they look forward to watching them.

AhriSafari 2y ago

I learned a few months ago showering in lightning is dangerous.

phoronixrly 2y ago
You can't just say that without explaining why. I live on the 8/10 floor of a building that gets yearly lightning rod inspections. All piping has been replaced with polypropylene (clean water) or PVC (dirty) and even when it was metal, the electrical and water systems were far apart from one another. Even if they were not far apart, all wiring is underground. The transformer is inside a nearby building and also has lightning rods/wires and all wiring to and from it is underground. There is literally no scenario apart from ball lightning coming through my bathroom window while I shower that I can think of
- mschuster91 2y ago
  > I live on the 8/10 floor of a building that gets yearly lightning rod inspections. That puts you in a very exclusive community. Most landlords don't bother to do anything that's not required by code/law.

ripped_britches 2y ago

There’s no risk if your water supply lines are pex instead of copper

telgareith 2y ago
Yea, because water is an amazing insulator. /s
- adrianN 2y ago
  Water is a reasonably good insulator actually. You need a lot of dissolved minerals to make it a good conductor. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dcrY59nGxBg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dcrY59nGxBg

telgareith 2y ago

Lightning has reached down from 10,000ft to strike the ground, do not make the mistake that it cares about anything humanity has built. Even with a lightning rod/abatement system, its probabilities and 'preferred paths.' Plus, we really don't know all that much about lightning. Things like "ball lightning" (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning) seem insane/impossible, but theres too many reports from everywhere on earth that go back hundreds of years- enough of them from reliable sources that its just "unexplained."

zikzak 2y ago
My father was born in 1930 and shared a bed with two siblings around ages 5-8. The bedroom was a small room at the top of the house and was on the wall where the electrical supply attached to the house from the street. During a bad storm one night, they heard a buzzing sound at the window by their bed and saw an intense light outside. The ball lightning then entered their room at the window (I have no idea how that would work) and followed the wall out to the hallway. The whole time, they could hear a sizzling noise and the light was blinding. Where it had entered the room, there was a fire outside where the electrical supply connected the house that entered the room. They took off out the door and down the the stairs. The fire damaged their house but did not spread (they think the rain put it out). I have also heard that there was a family that had ball lightning enter their house down the wood stove chimney and emerge into their kitchen, followed the wall around the room, and the fizzled out. Both incidents were a very long time ago. Other than that, I don't know anyone who has seen this phenomenon personally (my father passed away a couple of years ago).
- telgareith 2y ago
  Nobody knows. It's why it's so interesting, and controversial. "Two children and fire? Ball lightning... I've never heard matches called that before..." But then somebody stops and thinks... How would they know about Ball lightning at that age, in that age. Repeat that with thousands of accounts across cultures, continents, and at least 500 years. It's a real humdinger. Descriptions of Ball lightning are, afaik, more consistent than how people of different cultures handle psych problems. I find it comforting to know there's so much more about the world to explore.

atoav 2y ago

Lightning strikes can induce significant current flows within all conducting parts of a building. This is obviously worse with parts that are not (or not well) grounded. Basically without a lightning protection system you could stand next to a power outlet and a spark could bridge over to you and flow into the ground (there are slomo videos of such things happening in specific tests that have been conducted). I think the shower warning app is a bit overkill. If your place is that frequently hit by lightning strikes I'd install a proper lightning protection system with a narrow mesh width and surge protection devices in all sections of the house. Yeah and ground that shower. The hardest part about retrofitting such a system is getting a decent/low impedance ground connection. Ideally you'd embedded a steel mesh into the fundament and connect it to the lightning protection system on all sides. This is kinda hard if a house is already there, so digging deep on the sides of the house and trying to get connections under it (if possible) is the next alternative. In any case make sure that ground impedance is actually measured..