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We should build large numbers of commie blocks until PE firms regret buying residential properties.

by __loam 2y ago

seanmcdirmid 2y ago
Commie blocks don’t work, just ask China who has an even more messed up property market than we do.
- HDThoreaun 2y ago
  The chinese property bubble was created because of the lack of equity markets for chinese investors to dump money in. Without good investments to be had the chinese turned to pure speculation in the real estate market. Their housing market is actually quite good at providing housing, in fact theyve lifted 800+ million people out of poverty in the last 80 years. Just the crappy financial regulations that caused the problem. The American housing market does not seem to have much speculation right now. Houses actually provide utility around equal to what they cost here, theres just a big enough wealth disparity combined with not enough housing that a huge number of people cant afford that price.
  - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
    The construction industry really is a jobs program for rural surplus labor, they’ve optimized their construction techniques for that with the same 30 story blocks with slightly overbuilt concrete walls and floors. But they have surplus units and even in hot cities like Beijing or Shanghai you’ll find empty apartments that haven’t even been renovated yet. It’s not clear where this will end. The American market has lots of speculation. Many landlords are just in it for the appreciation given that they can’t even make a mortgage payment with rent, I know of multiple homes in my (Seattle) neighborhood owned by Chinese investors that are barely lived in.
    - HDThoreaun 2y ago
      They build the same building over and over again because theyve had to create litearlly a billion units in the last 50 years and it's faster that way. There are unsold units because the price went crazy due to speculation. Empty housing is one of the main indicators of a real estate bubble. American vacancy rate has slowly crept up but is still extremely low outside of manhattan. Americans tend not to believe housing will appreciate faster than the stock market, so housing speculation is limited, although of course not unheard of. We'd need LVT for that.
      - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
        The empty houses are definitely sold. They are just being held since the return on an unrenovated unit is higher than a renovated one. They are speculating long term, and being landlords doesn’t give them much. There are also apartments that have been sold but are never being lived in before the building is torn down and rebuilt, but they’ll still make their return regardless. As for the USA, yes it isn’t as bad here yet. But it’s getting there.
- __loam 2y ago
  We could also ask the Soviet Union which despite being an authoritarian shithole, did not have homeless people. In any case, most cities in the US have obvious supply side issues with housing. It doesn't matter who builds it, we need more supply. Why shouldn't it be the government?
  - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
    Soviet Union had a residency system also so everyone didn't just move to Moscow. Can we build enough housing in SF, Seattle, LA, SD to satisfy demand? Keep in mind that as soon as housing is affordable in these cities, even more people will move to them...so how much is enough?
    - __loam 2y ago
      Clearly more than right now given that all of those cities have a severe housing affordability crisis.
      - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
        They do, but they are also growing, some rapidly. We know that building more freeways induces demand, I why wouldn’t building more housing induce demand also?
mullingitover 2y ago
Better yet, we can just copy Singapore or Vienna's public housing systems and actually have desirable public housing. Arguably, the reason we don't already have this is because a large contingent of the voting public has been conditioned to believe that if the government does something well, it's communism, so the government should do anything well.
- pc86 2y ago
  It's less a belief that the government shouldn't do anything well, and more a belief that it can't.
  - mullingitover 2y ago
    Right, and I'd argue that the belief that it can't do things well frequently comes from the government being deliberately handicapped by those who believe it should't do things well. For example crippling (or outright trying to destroy) the US Postal Service out of the belief (or vested interest) that private delivery companies shouldn't have to compete against a publicly subsidized service.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - pchristensen 2y ago
    There are plenty of motivated actors that are terrified that the government will do a good job, and so they work to sabotage it so it won't be effective competition.
- SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
  The reason we don't have it in the US is that many cities tried and failed to make it work in the 50s and 60s, to the point that we have a slang term "projects" memorializing the failure. Public housing can't be desirable unless it's safe, and it's not clear whether anyone knows how to run a crime-free public housing project in the US.

We should build large numbers of commie blocks until PE firms regret buying residential properties.

by __loam 2y ago

We should build large numbers of commie blocks until PE firms regret buying residential properties.

seanmcdirmid 2y ago

Commie blocks don’t work, just ask China who has an even more messed up property market than we do.

HDThoreaun 2y ago
The chinese property bubble was created because of the lack of equity markets for chinese investors to dump money in. Without good investments to be had the chinese turned to pure speculation in the real estate market. Their housing market is actually quite good at providing housing, in fact theyve lifted 800+ million people out of poverty in the last 80 years. Just the crappy financial regulations that caused the problem. The American housing market does not seem to have much speculation right now. Houses actually provide utility around equal to what they cost here, theres just a big enough wealth disparity combined with not enough housing that a huge number of people cant afford that price.
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  The construction industry really is a jobs program for rural surplus labor, they’ve optimized their construction techniques for that with the same 30 story blocks with slightly overbuilt concrete walls and floors. But they have surplus units and even in hot cities like Beijing or Shanghai you’ll find empty apartments that haven’t even been renovated yet. It’s not clear where this will end. The American market has lots of speculation. Many landlords are just in it for the appreciation given that they can’t even make a mortgage payment with rent, I know of multiple homes in my (Seattle) neighborhood owned by Chinese investors that are barely lived in.
  - HDThoreaun 2y ago
    They build the same building over and over again because theyve had to create litearlly a billion units in the last 50 years and it's faster that way. There are unsold units because the price went crazy due to speculation. Empty housing is one of the main indicators of a real estate bubble. American vacancy rate has slowly crept up but is still extremely low outside of manhattan. Americans tend not to believe housing will appreciate faster than the stock market, so housing speculation is limited, although of course not unheard of. We'd need LVT for that.
    - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
      The empty houses are definitely sold. They are just being held since the return on an unrenovated unit is higher than a renovated one. They are speculating long term, and being landlords doesn’t give them much. There are also apartments that have been sold but are never being lived in before the building is torn down and rebuilt, but they’ll still make their return regardless. As for the USA, yes it isn’t as bad here yet. But it’s getting there.
__loam 2y ago
We could also ask the Soviet Union which despite being an authoritarian shithole, did not have homeless people. In any case, most cities in the US have obvious supply side issues with housing. It doesn't matter who builds it, we need more supply. Why shouldn't it be the government?
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  Soviet Union had a residency system also so everyone didn't just move to Moscow. Can we build enough housing in SF, Seattle, LA, SD to satisfy demand? Keep in mind that as soon as housing is affordable in these cities, even more people will move to them...so how much is enough?
  - __loam 2y ago
    Clearly more than right now given that all of those cities have a severe housing affordability crisis.
    - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
      They do, but they are also growing, some rapidly. We know that building more freeways induces demand, I why wouldn’t building more housing induce demand also?

mullingitover 2y ago

Better yet, we can just copy Singapore or Vienna's public housing systems and actually have desirable public housing. Arguably, the reason we don't already have this is because a large contingent of the voting public has been conditioned to believe that if the government does something well, it's communism, so the government should do anything well.

pc86 2y ago
It's less a belief that the government shouldn't do anything well, and more a belief that it can't.
- mullingitover 2y ago
  Right, and I'd argue that the belief that it can't do things well frequently comes from the government being deliberately handicapped by those who believe it should't do things well. For example crippling (or outright trying to destroy) the US Postal Service out of the belief (or vested interest) that private delivery companies shouldn't have to compete against a publicly subsidized service.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- pchristensen 2y ago
  There are plenty of motivated actors that are terrified that the government will do a good job, and so they work to sabotage it so it won't be effective competition.
SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
The reason we don't have it in the US is that many cities tried and failed to make it work in the 50s and 60s, to the point that we have a slang term "projects" memorializing the failure. Public housing can't be desirable unless it's safe, and it's not clear whether anyone knows how to run a crime-free public housing project in the US.