5 ms·

I wonder how far California could go on its own in destroying the journal cartels. They really are a parasitic racket, and I don't think the average voter under

I wonder how far California could go on its own in destroying the journal cartels. They really are a parasitic racket, and I don't think the average voter understand how bad it really is. I feel like one basic ballot measure to the effect of "All state funded research shall be released to the public domain, and all prior contract terms to the contrary are hereby void" might be enough to knock over the first domino, hopefully culminating in it being made a federal regulation.

jjtheblunt 2y ago
would that be unconstitutional violation of ex post facto? I'm not lawyer, so that question is one i don't know how to even approach.
- xbar 2y ago
  There are laws that make contract clauses illegal/unenforceable. Think right to work.
- daemonologist 2y ago
  I believe ex post facto in the US only applies to criminal cases. Retroactive civil regulations are not restricted (at least by the federal constitution). https://www.oyez.org/cases/1789-1850/3us386 https://www.oyez.org/cases/1789-1850/3us386
  - dredmorbius 2y ago
    Correct: In a legal context, ex post facto is most typically used to refer to a criminal statute that punishes actions retroactively, thereby criminalizing conduct that was legal when originally performed. Two clauses in the United States Constitution prohibit ex post facto laws: Article 1, § 9 --- This prohibits Congress from passing any laws which apply ex post facto. Article 1 § 10. --- This prohibits the states from passing any laws which apply ex post facto. <https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/ex_post_facto https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/ex_post_facto>
- lkjdsklf 2y ago
  It’s different from ex post facto, but The state can not pass laws that alter existing contracts or refuse to enforce them. That’s very explicitly prohibited under the contracts clause. Very much unconstitutional
  - mullingitover 2y ago
    > The state can not pass laws that alter existing contracts or refuse to enforce them. "Right to work" laws would seem to be a counterexample here - states are permitted to jump in and put their thumbs on the scale in a contract between a debtor (the employer) and the union.
levocardia 2y ago
> "All state funded research shall be released to the public domain, and all prior contract terms to the contrary are hereby void" That's already a requirement for a huge amount of research.
- a_bonobo 2y ago
  Yes but you still need the journal's stamp of approval for your CV - in my past life having the paper on biorxiv did not count towards anything. The number of papers per year in the top 20% of journals in the field was one of two metrics they assessed my career progression by (along with grant money). As long as universities and funders require similar journal-based KPIs we will not make any progress.
  - sitkack 2y ago
    I wish I could make your comment the pull quote for this discussion. Break the an oligopoly by making them irrelevant. Academia cannot continue to feed these monsters with free resources and then also try to contain them.
burningChrome 2y ago
>> I don't think the average voter understand how bad it really is. Unless you're in academia, you'd have no idea. I spent a few years in academia while pursuing my Masters. Dropped out for various reasons and never had any idea this was such a huge thing - mainly because as a university student, you just always had access. I got a small glimpse when I got a job a few years later working for a rather large legal publisher and how locked down they kept all of their online materials for anybody outside of academics. Its when I really understood there was a massive war raging about access to this stuff and the publishers trying to eek out every penny from granting access to materials and research that should have been just in the public domain. I didn't stay there long and had almost forgotten about all that stuff until 2011 when it broke into the news cycle again. You're 100% right, this should really be a much larger issue and covered more regularly, it has massive implications on research and copyrights. Remember how long the issues of Napster and piracy have been in the media for so long (there was just another HN topic this week), but this? Not much is ever really talked about it - it just seems to linger in the shadows, which is depressing.
- Loughla 2y ago
  I think it's because not a lot of professions access these research journals for their day to day outside of medicine, engineering, and academia. It's just not an issue for most people's everyday. So it's just not an issue.
  - dredmorbius 2y ago
    It's an issue pretty much anybody who's gone through a tertiary academic institution should have some awareness of. That's well over half the adult population these days in the US and likely EU. Being cut off from library access was a huge shock for me on leaving uni.
    - Loughla 2y ago
      Again, not really. Most professions, once you leave University, do not consult research materials. They have no reason to. And when these folks are in university, the materials are all super easily accessible. It's literally a non-issue for, I would bet, a majority of people. It just doesn't exist in their day to day. Regardless of how that actually impacts the world.
CoreformGreg 2y ago
If you're not aware, you may be interested in checking out https://www.osti.gov https://www.osti.gov and https://www.osti.gov/search-tools https://www.osti.gov/search-tools
mrandish 2y ago
> "...all prior contract terms to the contrary are hereby void" I don't think this second part you suggest is something the state can just unilaterally do if there's an existing valid contract and the other party doesn't agree. You could mandate that no contracts may be renewed and all contracts should be terminated as soon as the terms permit.
- ClumsyPilot 2y ago
  > I don't think this second part you suggest is something the state can just unilaterally do If the state does not enforce a contract through the courts, what is it really worth?
  - lkjdsklf 2y ago
    The bigger issue is that it is a clear constitutional violation. It specifically prohibits states from voiding contracts and ensures they must be enforced
dash2 2y ago
I think the UK has some fairly tough terms along those lines. Google "green open access".
whoitwas 2y ago
Imagine government that actually tries to help people. California seems decent.
Vinnl 2y ago
Almost the entirety of Europe, together with big funders like the Gates Foundation and the Wellcome Trust, took a good stab at battling the cartels to get them to make articles Open Access, with Plan S: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_S https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_S Unfortunately, the impact seems to have been limited, primarily because the US didn't sign up to it. So I'm afraid I don't see California being able to go on its own.
- Yeul 2y ago
  Elsevier are no doubt scum but I think that scientists share the blame. They all want to be published in the big famous journals. Which gives Elsevier the power to dictate terms.
  - Vinnl 2y ago
    Of course they want to get published in the big famous journals; the ones that don't lost their funding, and thus aren't scientists any more. (Which is not to say that some aren't to blame; in particular, the ones on funding committees that still assign value to the journal/publisher names rather than the actual work produced by applicants.)
DoctorOetker 2y ago
followed by regulation taxing the sale of empty digital rewritable media, with that money exclusively used to reward the sale of digital rewritable media if it provably contains a randomly selected subset of all research articles. If a user doesn't want it, they can format the drive, or filter by subject, and get any missing articles for a subject domain from friends/whomever, but preferably first share articles with interested peers before overwriting them. This will make the hoi polloi understand the problem, and prevent them from forgetting the lesson.
_yb2s 2y ago
California runs big research universities, but nearly all of the research is funded by federal grants. The state has almost no power here because they’re not the ones actually paying for research… but this can easily be done by the granting agencies, and the NIH already requires open access. What the state could do is have the universities stop paying for journal access, but in the short term this would be a disaster for researchers. I am an academic PI in California.
- jrochkind1 2y ago
  The University of California system already cancelled it's Elsevier subscription in 2019, with an aim to making all UC research open access. Without a legislative instruction from the state, just UC librarians and administrators and whatever other UC decision-making processes. https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/press-room/uc-terminates-subscriptions-worlds-largest-scientific-publisher-push-open-access https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/press-room/uc-termina... https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/03/01/university-california-cancels-deal-elsevier-after-months-negotiations https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/03/01/university-ca... https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00758-x https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00758-x The fact that you are an academic PI in California (At UC?) and don't know this is interesting! In that I guess, for you at least, it didn't have any deleterious effects to lose access to Elsevier subscriptions (apparently it hasn't been a disaster for researchers!), but I guess also the open access efforts haven't had any obvious positive effects notable to you?
  - _yb2s 2y ago
    That is in fact what I was referencing when I mentioned that California universities have the power to stop paying for journal access, but not to force researchers publications to be open access. Your information isn't quite accurate anymore, actually in 2022 Elsevier and UC reached an agreement, and they renewed the subscription. Everyone in the UCs currently has full access to Elsevier articles, even the non open access ones. It was indeed difficult and harmful to researchers during the period when access was lost.
    - 2y ago
jrochkind1 2y ago
> I wonder how far California could go on its own in destroying the journal cartels. The UC system cancelled it's Elsevier subscription in 2019. https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/press-room/uc-terminates-subscriptions-worlds-largest-scientific-publisher-push-open-access https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/press-room/uc-termina... (MIT above is reporting on how it went for them cancelling in 2020. Part of the same wave, I am sure they were talking to each other). I wonder if UC has a similar article? Looks like not yet in this series: https://sparcopen.org/our-work/big-deal-knowledge-base/unbundling-profiles/ https://sparcopen.org/our-work/big-deal-knowledge-base/unbun... Would be good to see! But anyway, UC has done it, and it hasn't destroyed the industry... yet...
notfed 2y ago
Interesting how cartels seem to form by profiting off of laws that should not be laws.

jjtheblunt 2y ago

would that be unconstitutional violation of ex post facto? I'm not lawyer, so that question is one i don't know how to even approach.

xbar 2y ago
There are laws that make contract clauses illegal/unenforceable. Think right to work.
daemonologist 2y ago
I believe ex post facto in the US only applies to criminal cases. Retroactive civil regulations are not restricted (at least by the federal constitution). https://www.oyez.org/cases/1789-1850/3us386 https://www.oyez.org/cases/1789-1850/3us386
- dredmorbius 2y ago
  Correct: In a legal context, ex post facto is most typically used to refer to a criminal statute that punishes actions retroactively, thereby criminalizing conduct that was legal when originally performed. Two clauses in the United States Constitution prohibit ex post facto laws: Article 1, § 9 --- This prohibits Congress from passing any laws which apply ex post facto. Article 1 § 10. --- This prohibits the states from passing any laws which apply ex post facto. <https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/ex_post_facto https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/ex_post_facto>
lkjdsklf 2y ago
It’s different from ex post facto, but The state can not pass laws that alter existing contracts or refuse to enforce them. That’s very explicitly prohibited under the contracts clause. Very much unconstitutional
- mullingitover 2y ago
  > The state can not pass laws that alter existing contracts or refuse to enforce them. "Right to work" laws would seem to be a counterexample here - states are permitted to jump in and put their thumbs on the scale in a contract between a debtor (the employer) and the union.

levocardia 2y ago

> "All state funded research shall be released to the public domain, and all prior contract terms to the contrary are hereby void" That's already a requirement for a huge amount of research.

a_bonobo 2y ago
Yes but you still need the journal's stamp of approval for your CV - in my past life having the paper on biorxiv did not count towards anything. The number of papers per year in the top 20% of journals in the field was one of two metrics they assessed my career progression by (along with grant money). As long as universities and funders require similar journal-based KPIs we will not make any progress.
- sitkack 2y ago
  I wish I could make your comment the pull quote for this discussion. Break the an oligopoly by making them irrelevant. Academia cannot continue to feed these monsters with free resources and then also try to contain them.

burningChrome 2y ago

>> I don't think the average voter understand how bad it really is. Unless you're in academia, you'd have no idea. I spent a few years in academia while pursuing my Masters. Dropped out for various reasons and never had any idea this was such a huge thing - mainly because as a university student, you just always had access. I got a small glimpse when I got a job a few years later working for a rather large legal publisher and how locked down they kept all of their online materials for anybody outside of academics. Its when I really understood there was a massive war raging about access to this stuff and the publishers trying to eek out every penny from granting access to materials and research that should have been just in the public domain. I didn't stay there long and had almost forgotten about all that stuff until 2011 when it broke into the news cycle again. You're 100% right, this should really be a much larger issue and covered more regularly, it has massive implications on research and copyrights. Remember how long the issues of Napster and piracy have been in the media for so long (there was just another HN topic this week), but this? Not much is ever really talked about it - it just seems to linger in the shadows, which is depressing.

Loughla 2y ago
I think it's because not a lot of professions access these research journals for their day to day outside of medicine, engineering, and academia. It's just not an issue for most people's everyday. So it's just not an issue.
- dredmorbius 2y ago
  It's an issue pretty much anybody who's gone through a tertiary academic institution should have some awareness of. That's well over half the adult population these days in the US and likely EU. Being cut off from library access was a huge shock for me on leaving uni.
  - Loughla 2y ago
    Again, not really. Most professions, once you leave University, do not consult research materials. They have no reason to. And when these folks are in university, the materials are all super easily accessible. It's literally a non-issue for, I would bet, a majority of people. It just doesn't exist in their day to day. Regardless of how that actually impacts the world.

CoreformGreg 2y ago

If you're not aware, you may be interested in checking out https://www.osti.gov https://www.osti.gov and https://www.osti.gov/search-tools https://www.osti.gov/search-tools

mrandish 2y ago

> "...all prior contract terms to the contrary are hereby void" I don't think this second part you suggest is something the state can just unilaterally do if there's an existing valid contract and the other party doesn't agree. You could mandate that no contracts may be renewed and all contracts should be terminated as soon as the terms permit.

ClumsyPilot 2y ago
> I don't think this second part you suggest is something the state can just unilaterally do If the state does not enforce a contract through the courts, what is it really worth?
- lkjdsklf 2y ago
  The bigger issue is that it is a clear constitutional violation. It specifically prohibits states from voiding contracts and ensures they must be enforced

dash2 2y ago

I think the UK has some fairly tough terms along those lines. Google "green open access".

whoitwas 2y ago

Imagine government that actually tries to help people. California seems decent.

Vinnl 2y ago

Almost the entirety of Europe, together with big funders like the Gates Foundation and the Wellcome Trust, took a good stab at battling the cartels to get them to make articles Open Access, with Plan S: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_S https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_S Unfortunately, the impact seems to have been limited, primarily because the US didn't sign up to it. So I'm afraid I don't see California being able to go on its own.

Yeul 2y ago
Elsevier are no doubt scum but I think that scientists share the blame. They all want to be published in the big famous journals. Which gives Elsevier the power to dictate terms.
- Vinnl 2y ago
  Of course they want to get published in the big famous journals; the ones that don't lost their funding, and thus aren't scientists any more. (Which is not to say that some aren't to blame; in particular, the ones on funding committees that still assign value to the journal/publisher names rather than the actual work produced by applicants.)

DoctorOetker 2y ago

followed by regulation taxing the sale of empty digital rewritable media, with that money exclusively used to reward the sale of digital rewritable media if it provably contains a randomly selected subset of all research articles. If a user doesn't want it, they can format the drive, or filter by subject, and get any missing articles for a subject domain from friends/whomever, but preferably first share articles with interested peers before overwriting them. This will make the hoi polloi understand the problem, and prevent them from forgetting the lesson.

_yb2s 2y ago

California runs big research universities, but nearly all of the research is funded by federal grants. The state has almost no power here because they’re not the ones actually paying for research… but this can easily be done by the granting agencies, and the NIH already requires open access. What the state could do is have the universities stop paying for journal access, but in the short term this would be a disaster for researchers. I am an academic PI in California.

jrochkind1 2y ago
The University of California system already cancelled it's Elsevier subscription in 2019, with an aim to making all UC research open access. Without a legislative instruction from the state, just UC librarians and administrators and whatever other UC decision-making processes. https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/press-room/uc-terminates-subscriptions-worlds-largest-scientific-publisher-push-open-access https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/press-room/uc-termina... https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/03/01/university-california-cancels-deal-elsevier-after-months-negotiations https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/03/01/university-ca... https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00758-x https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00758-x The fact that you are an academic PI in California (At UC?) and don't know this is interesting! In that I guess, for you at least, it didn't have any deleterious effects to lose access to Elsevier subscriptions (apparently it hasn't been a disaster for researchers!), but I guess also the open access efforts haven't had any obvious positive effects notable to you?
- _yb2s 2y ago
  That is in fact what I was referencing when I mentioned that California universities have the power to stop paying for journal access, but not to force researchers publications to be open access. Your information isn't quite accurate anymore, actually in 2022 Elsevier and UC reached an agreement, and they renewed the subscription. Everyone in the UCs currently has full access to Elsevier articles, even the non open access ones. It was indeed difficult and harmful to researchers during the period when access was lost.
  - 2y ago

jrochkind1 2y ago

> I wonder how far California could go on its own in destroying the journal cartels. The UC system cancelled it's Elsevier subscription in 2019. https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/press-room/uc-terminates-subscriptions-worlds-largest-scientific-publisher-push-open-access https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/press-room/uc-termina... (MIT above is reporting on how it went for them cancelling in 2020. Part of the same wave, I am sure they were talking to each other). I wonder if UC has a similar article? Looks like not yet in this series: https://sparcopen.org/our-work/big-deal-knowledge-base/unbundling-profiles/ https://sparcopen.org/our-work/big-deal-knowledge-base/unbun... Would be good to see! But anyway, UC has done it, and it hasn't destroyed the industry... yet...

notfed 2y ago

Interesting how cartels seem to form by profiting off of laws that should not be laws.